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RTKO #3164653 10/17/21 08:07 AM
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RTKO - hope you post some pix as well as maybe a short video of the gorgeous sound that Shigero will be making.
Let us know if you 'name' the piano?

brdwyguy
CONGRATULATIONS

Last edited by brdwyguy; 10/17/21 08:09 AM.

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Originally Posted by brdwyguy
RTKO - hope you post some pix as well as maybe a short video of the gorgeous sound that Shigero will be making.
Let us know if you 'name' the piano?

brdwyguy
CONGRATULATIONS

Yes, yes, and yes! Congratulations 🍾🎈🎊🎉 on you new SK5.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
The reason I’m old and wise is because God protected me when I was young and stupid.
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RTKO #3164692 10/17/21 11:54 AM
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Congratulations RTKO, I'm so jealous. As for rugs, Home Depot has a surprisingly good selection on their website.

Post pics when you have them!


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
RTKO #3164704 10/17/21 01:10 PM
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Congrats on the SK5, and for getting Don M. to work on it!


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RTKO #3164713 10/17/21 01:50 PM
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Congrats and I hope to see some pictures when you are ready to post!

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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Jethro
So for example many technicians may know with exceptional knowledge how to voice a hammer but is there a different way that a technician should approach a Bosendorfer versus a Steinway versus a Yamaha or a Shigeru. Do the hammers on different makes respond well to a certain way of voicing that requires experience or certain training? Or is it no, as long as they have good technique and a good ear any competent technician would be fine? .

Greetings,
Different hammers require different approaches to optimize their response. Of major difference is the Steinway hammer, which, unlike most others, is made of a softer felt with the expectation that hardener will be used to bring the tone "up" to perfection. Almost all others are made harder to begin with, with the expectation of being needled "down" to perfection. A tech that uses one approach on both styles will cause some shortcomings.

The voicing approach of the Shigeru pianos is almost identical to the Oerbeck approach, which is to deep needle the low shoulders, then create a progressive release of tension as the strike point is reached. This requires a voicer that knows what they are feeling in the needles as they penetrate the various parts of the hammer, and can equate that to the tone they are hearing as the voicing progresses. This is where experience counts, as hammers don't respond immediately to the needle's effect, but, rather, change with use as the hammers' impact distributes the slack caused by the needling.

Lack of prep, particularly mating hammers to the strings, is a common reason for poor voicing. After that, problems arise from too much needling near the strike point while leaving too much hardness in the shoulders, or too much needling in the shoulders because not enough was done farther up. An experienced and capable tech will understand the hammer they are working on and use the appropriate approach. For example, many years ago, I watched Fred Drasche, the "master" of Steinway's voicing protocol, demonstrate the insertion of a needle straight down into the hammer's core from the strike point. On a lacquered hammer such as Steinway used, this was about the only way to soften the harshness, but that same technique would be a disaster on a Shigeru or Bosendorfer hammer.

The voicer must know his hammer to do a credible job, but don't expect all of us to exactly match the results of Don Mannino, Mr Murakami, or Terry Otake. They have listened and needled more Shigeru hammers than most of us can expect to in our lifetime, and experience counts.
Regards,
Thank you for your detailed response. That was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I just wished they had a way to hire an Shigeru MPA when the time came to seriously voice my piano as that would be the ideal. I’ve had a Steinway technician use lacquer on an RX2 with not so good results. So familiarity with the type of hammers they are working on appears to be key.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
RTKO #3164838 10/18/21 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RTKO
Update!

Made a visit to try out the freshly uncrated SK3... however, it just so happened an SK5 was also in the same shipment. I was the first customer to try both pianos. The dealer had all pianos tuned (as well as an SK2 next to it). Within 5 minutes, I knew that the SK5 was "the one"

I had the immense privilege of meeting Don Mannino on Friday who generously took the time to voice and regulate the SK5, making it even better than when I first tried it.

For reference, I've been casually looking at pianos for the past ~2 years, but began looking more regularly a few months ago. I cross shopped around 100 pianos and tried about 15-20 Steinways (A, B and O - new, used, and concert-artist refurbished stock); Steingraebers (2 grands 2 uprights); Grotrian (grand and concert grand); Estonias; Mason Hamlins; Bluthners; Bechstein Academy and Concert, Bosendorfer (280VC; 214VC, 214 non-VC, 170); Schimmel; A bunch of Yamahas (but no S or CF available); Kawai.

Of Shigerus, I tried 3 SK2s, 2 SK3s, 2 SK5s, 1 SK6, and 2 SK7s.

I'm "almost" pianoed out (if there is such a thing), but it's settled.

Locked in the SK5 with a deposit today

Will be settling on a delivery date in the next couple weeks once I can find a rug.

Thanks all for your input and responses!
Congratulations on such a fine purchase! Looking forward to pictures!


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
RTKO #3164840 10/18/21 08:48 AM
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Congrats for the SK-5! How would you describe differences between SK-5/6/7?

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Jethro
So for example many technicians may know with exceptional knowledge how to voice a hammer but is there a different way that a technician should approach a Bosendorfer versus a Steinway versus a Yamaha or a Shigeru. Do the hammers on different makes respond well to a certain way of voicing that requires experience or certain training? Or is it no, as long as they have good technique and a good ear any competent technician would be fine? .

Greetings,
Different hammers require different approaches to optimize their response. Of major difference is the Steinway hammer, which, unlike most others, is made of a softer felt with the expectation that hardener will be used to bring the tone "up" to perfection. Almost all others are made harder to begin with, with the expectation of being needled "down" to perfection. A tech that uses one approach on both styles will cause some shortcomings.

The voicing approach of the Shigeru pianos is almost identical to the Oerbeck approach, which is to deep needle the low shoulders, then create a progressive release of tension as the strike point is reached. This requires a voicer that knows what they are feeling in the needles as they penetrate the various parts of the hammer, and can equate that to the tone they are hearing as the voicing progresses. This is where experience counts, as hammers don't respond immediately to the needle's effect, but, rather, change with use as the hammers' impact distributes the slack caused by the needling.

Lack of prep, particularly mating hammers to the strings, is a common reason for poor voicing. After that, problems arise from too much needling near the strike point while leaving too much hardness in the shoulders, or too much needling in the shoulders because not enough was done farther up. An experienced and capable tech will understand the hammer they are working on and use the appropriate approach. For example, many years ago, I watched Fred Drasche, the "master" of Steinway's voicing protocol, demonstrate the insertion of a needle straight down into the hammer's core from the strike point. On a lacquered hammer such as Steinway used, this was about the only way to soften the harshness, but that same technique would be a disaster on a Shigeru or Bosendorfer hammer.

The voicer must know his hammer to do a credible job, but don't expect all of us to exactly match the results of Don Mannino, Mr Murakami, or Terry Otake. They have listened and needled more Shigeru hammers than most of us can expect to in our lifetime, and experience counts.
Regards,
Thank you for your detailed response. That was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I just wished they had a way to hire an Shigeru MPA when the time came to seriously voice my piano as that would be the ideal. I’ve had a Steinway technician use lacquer on an RX2 with not so good results. So familiarity with the type of hammers they are working on appears to be key.
My takeaway from the above is that an experienced and excellent voicer, even if not a Shigeru MPA, can do a very good job voicing a Shigeru.

Ed Foote's post seems to indicate that a good voicer with experience on non Steinway like hammers can do a good job on a Shigeru if not quite as good as a MPA. In fact, if this was not the case, people would be taking a chance buying a Shigeru since they only get one visit from an MPA and his voicing will not last forever. I think very few techs do most of their work only on one make of piano, so it's not usually possible to get a tech with an extraordinary experience with one make. But it is far more possible to get a tech with extraordinary general experience and skill.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Jethro
So for example many technicians may know with exceptional knowledge how to voice a hammer but is there a different way that a technician should approach a Bosendorfer versus a Steinway versus a Yamaha or a Shigeru. Do the hammers on different makes respond well to a certain way of voicing that requires experience or certain training? Or is it no, as long as they have good technique and a good ear any competent technician would be fine? .

Greetings,
Different hammers require different approaches to optimize their response. Of major difference is the Steinway hammer, which, unlike most others, is made of a softer felt with the expectation that hardener will be used to bring the tone "up" to perfection. Almost all others are made harder to begin with, with the expectation of being needled "down" to perfection. A tech that uses one approach on both styles will cause some shortcomings.

The voicing approach of the Shigeru pianos is almost identical to the Oerbeck approach, which is to deep needle the low shoulders, then create a progressive release of tension as the strike point is reached. This requires a voicer that knows what they are feeling in the needles as they penetrate the various parts of the hammer, and can equate that to the tone they are hearing as the voicing progresses. This is where experience counts, as hammers don't respond immediately to the needle's effect, but, rather, change with use as the hammers' impact distributes the slack caused by the needling.

Lack of prep, particularly mating hammers to the strings, is a common reason for poor voicing. After that, problems arise from too much needling near the strike point while leaving too much hardness in the shoulders, or too much needling in the shoulders because not enough was done farther up. An experienced and capable tech will understand the hammer they are working on and use the appropriate approach. For example, many years ago, I watched Fred Drasche, the "master" of Steinway's voicing protocol, demonstrate the insertion of a needle straight down into the hammer's core from the strike point. On a lacquered hammer such as Steinway used, this was about the only way to soften the harshness, but that same technique would be a disaster on a Shigeru or Bosendorfer hammer.

The voicer must know his hammer to do a credible job, but don't expect all of us to exactly match the results of Don Mannino, Mr Murakami, or Terry Otake. They have listened and needled more Shigeru hammers than most of us can expect to in our lifetime, and experience counts.
Regards,
Thank you for your detailed response. That was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I just wished they had a way to hire an Shigeru MPA when the time came to seriously voice my piano as that would be the ideal. I’ve had a Steinway technician use lacquer on an RX2 with not so good results. So familiarity with the type of hammers they are working on appears to be key.
My takeaway from the above is that an experienced and excellent voicer, even if not a Shigeru MPA, can do a very good job voicing a Shigeru.

Ed Foote's post seems to indicate that a good voicer with experience on non Steinway like hammers can do a good job on a Shigeru if not quite as good as a MPA. In fact, if this was not the case, people would be taking a chance buying a Shigeru since they only get one visit from an MPA and his voicing will not last forever. I think very few techs do most of their work only on one make of piano, so it's not usually possible to get a tech with an extraordinary experience with one make. But it is far more possible to get a tech with extraordinary general experience and skill.
I agree with you. I was just saying that a Shigeru MPA would be the ideal.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
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