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Pablo, don't believe the videos of people who supposedly show their progress over 1 year and are playing virtuoso pieces at the end. They are all fakes except maybe some of the prodidgy kids. All the adult ones are 100% fake. It's very easy for a pro to look like a beginner.

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To be blunt and honest, your video doesn't demonstrate anything except doodling. Playing a few measures of the RH of a piece or a scale for one or two octaves is close to meaningless. Probably 99% or more of those studying piano don't ever reach the the level where they can play the Revolutionary Etude well, and thinking about that at this point is not meaningful. The Beethoven Rondo you suggested as an alternative is at least as hard and a major virtuoso showpiece.

If you want to improve at the fastest rate you can, get a good teacher and take lessons once a week. More often than once/week is not a good idea since you should be practicing a lot between lessons. When you are ready, post a performance of a complete piece even if it's one page long. Then posters can help you with the next appropriate steps.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/18/21 10:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Can you play your left hand scales at 160 BPM at 4 notes per click? That is the tempo of the Revolutionary Etude. I mean, you could learn the notes and play them slower but then it's not going to sound flashy. I have to be blunt. Beginners are NOT impressed by other beginners playing virtuoso pieces badly. You are not going to go viral playing this piece.

You do what you want but there are many flashy intermediate level pieces you could try that you are much more likely to be able to play.





I can play left hand c major for sure 160 bpm, or if not 160 bpm very close. I did a C major scale across whole piano hands together just now in 8 seconds (not going back just forward starting from the farthest C) so I don't know if thats good...


I may consider trying some of these pieces, honestly after I finish bach invention and stuff maybe I'll play one of these and tackle revolutionary/or whatever recommendation would fit my strengths..

These are not bad examples, but do you know any more advanced pieces that are easier than they seem or look? Remember, every pianist has certain strengths and weaknesses, I'm bad at jumps comparatively to my scale playing. Playing stuff hands separate is easier since I just learned how to count over summer (but my rhythm skills are starting to get strong :^), also if you notice that guy went viral playing fantasie impromptu poorly. I'm not expecting a perfect brilliant performance of it, I think I can perform what you posted though pretty well. I think once I finish my current goal pieces, maybe I'll try out Puck it doesn't look rough at all, Rachmaninoff mentioned Grieg made music that is very pianistic or fits the hand well, and I see what he means...


Should I post another video that's a better showoff of my level? I can play a lot of excerpts from pieces, and play maybe a complete piece, scales etc... I can play the intro to Rach C# prelude like it's nothing, and an excerpt from mephisto waltz (very short though xD), I do really want to get through these fundamental pieces though first, I really think learning these will level me up...


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It's kind of funny seeing someone say their rhythm is getting strong after a couple of months of learning to count while I'm over here stressing over it while having years of band experience. I thought I was playing my piece well and shared it with others, it sounds good to the layman but my teacher is always good at constructively bringing me down to earth.

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Originally Posted by pablobear
I can play left hand c major for sure 160 bpm, or if not 160 bpm very close. I did a C major scale across whole piano hands together just now in 8 seconds (not going back just forward starting from the farthest C) so I don't know if thats good...
8 seconds for playing the C major scale starting from the lowest C to the highest C going up only? That doesn't come even close to 160. It's only about 90.

160 means you start on C go up 4 octaves and back down 4 octaves ending on the same note in 5.25 seconds (the final note is long and doesn't count).

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Originally Posted by shlver
It's kind of funny seeing someone say their rhythm is getting strong after a couple of months of learning to count while I'm over here stressing over it while having years of band experience. I thought I was playing my piece well and shared it with others, it sounds good to the layman but my teacher is always good at constructively bringing me down to earth.


Basic rhythm is getting strong...

Polyrhythms, or more complicated tricky rhythms like stuff in Scriabin is obviously very difficult.

I can improvise a piece, which I did. That is eighth note over whole note, and I listen to a lot of music. When I walk pay attention to rhythm, listen to rhythm in nature, whenever I listen to music I always pay attention to time, etc.. It's really natural animal instinct to be rhythmic, if you just dedicate more attention to it you'll get better.


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Originally Posted by pablobear
Originally Posted by shlver
It's kind of funny seeing someone say their rhythm is getting strong after a couple of months of learning to count while I'm over here stressing over it while having years of band experience. I thought I was playing my piece well and shared it with others, it sounds good to the layman but my teacher is always good at constructively bringing me down to earth.


Basic rhythm is getting strong...

Polyrhythms, or more complicated tricky rhythms like stuff in Scriabin is obviously very difficult.

I can improvise a piece, which I did. That is eighth note over whole note, and I listen to a lot of music. When I walk pay attention to rhythm, listen to rhythm in nature, whenever I listen to music I always pay attention to time, etc.. It's really natural animal instinct to be rhythmic, if you just dedicate more attention to it you'll get better.
I work on it as well, albeit in a more focused manner with progressive drum exercises and a metronome. I think you missed the point I was trying to make, we're both suffering from dunning kruger syndrome. I have 6 years of counting in a band and feel my rhythm and pulse keeping is inadequate on piano but you think it's strong after a couple of months. This contrast is what I was pointing out.

Last edited by shlver; 10/18/21 11:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by pablobear
I can play left hand c major for sure 160 bpm, or if not 160 bpm very close. I did a C major scale across whole piano hands together just now in 8 seconds (not going back just forward starting from the farthest C) so I don't know if thats good...
8 seconds for playing the C major scale starting from the lowest C to the highest C going up only? That doesn't come even close to 160. It's only about 90.

160 means you start on C go up 4 octaves and back down 4 octaves ending on the same note in 5.25 seconds (the final note is long and doesn't count).


Going to try again and see what I can get, wow I didn't know I had to go this fast... I thought I was going too fast at times, but this actually motivates me to improve my technique more... I have a few secrets in my back pocket for training that I haven't busted out yet for scales...

Just got 6.5 (also doing 5 octaves forward) seconds, so a bit faster but wow!!! 5.25 seconds back and forth!! That sounds fun lol, I'm going to try to see how fast I can get.. Also, keep in mind after I hit the stopwatch I have to move to piano, so it may be a bit faster than 6.5, but wow this is cool... I'm going to try and get it closer and closer everyday.


I'm trying to make my technique much better now, like wow... I don't need this much technique for bach inventions and stuff, but, this makes my grind a lot more fun. There is still so much more I have to learn about technique, I just can't get into a comfortable position like Richter... My wrist will always raise, but I'm aware of it now. I realize how important the fundamental hand position is, you don't need to do any fancy or extra movements or stuff.. You just need to be relaxed and have the strong dome at all times


I watched him play revolutionary and he plays the piece with the comfort I'd have playing a cmajor scale.. Absolutely ridichterlous.


Well, I will periodically check on this thread. I'm going to keep up the grind on the pieces I'm supposed to be working on, and then when I finish them we will see... You guys all offer great perspective and info...

Besides pianoloversus, his pragmatism is kind of funny. Being a pragmatist means you will mostly be correct in your own systems, but within those systems there can always be an outlier.

Last edited by pablobear; 10/18/21 11:39 AM.

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Originally Posted by shlver
Originally Posted by pablobear
Originally Posted by shlver
It's kind of funny seeing someone say their rhythm is getting strong after a couple of months of learning to count while I'm over here stressing over it while having years of band experience. I thought I was playing my piece well and shared it with others, it sounds good to the layman but my teacher is always good at constructively bringing me down to earth.


Basic rhythm is getting strong...

Polyrhythms, or more complicated tricky rhythms like stuff in Scriabin is obviously very difficult.

I can improvise a piece, which I did. That is eighth note over whole note, and I listen to a lot of music. When I walk pay attention to rhythm, listen to rhythm in nature, whenever I listen to music I always pay attention to time, etc.. It's really natural animal instinct to be rhythmic, if you just dedicate more attention to it you'll get better.
I work on it as well, albeit in a more focused manner with progressive drum exercises and a metronome. I think you missed the point I was trying to make, we're both suffering from dunning kruger syndrome. I have 6 years of counting in a band and feel my rhythm and pulse keeping is inadequate on piano but you think it's strong after a couple of months. This contrast is what I was pointing out.

If u take dunning Krueger to its logical conclusion, it will always end up in a paradox. Dunning Krueger is just lame scientists way of copying Plato's "I Know that I know nothing"...

I understand I have tons of improvement, and my rhythm is objectively weak. But, how I understand my rhythm I'd consider it strong considering I just learned how to count recently. Like, I can listen to complicated pieces and stay on time in my head for most of it, if not all of it. Or, if I listen to a piece for the first time ever, I can pick out the rhythm and tap along. E.g. I went to my first concert yesterday, and the beethoven tempest was playing, and I've never listened to the piece, but when it got to the beginning of the third movement. I remember being able to tap along to all the accent notes in time, nearly instantly. I'm sure if you make me clap a complicated rhythm with dotted rhythms, or aspects I'm unfamiliar with I will crumble. But, if I focus I can stay in time on basic rhythms. That's what cream colored book does for you...

Also, I never use metronome. I don't recommend using the metronome, maybe that is why your rhythm skills are lacking... Most of the great pianists of the past (in my opinion), either despised the metronome, or if they used it, it was VERY sparingly with a purpose.

You get more out of counting your footsteps when walking than out of a metronome in my opinion, or when you go up stairs or down stairs... Go up in groups of 2 or just go up or down in certain ways....


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Originally Posted by pablobear
Originally Posted by shlver
Originally Posted by pablobear
Originally Posted by shlver
It's kind of funny seeing someone say their rhythm is getting strong after a couple of months of learning to count while I'm over here stressing over it while having years of band experience. I thought I was playing my piece well and shared it with others, it sounds good to the layman but my teacher is always good at constructively bringing me down to earth.


Basic rhythm is getting strong...

Polyrhythms, or more complicated tricky rhythms like stuff in Scriabin is obviously very difficult.

I can improvise a piece, which I did. That is eighth note over whole note, and I listen to a lot of music. When I walk pay attention to rhythm, listen to rhythm in nature, whenever I listen to music I always pay attention to time, etc.. It's really natural animal instinct to be rhythmic, if you just dedicate more attention to it you'll get better.
I work on it as well, albeit in a more focused manner with progressive drum exercises and a metronome. I think you missed the point I was trying to make, we're both suffering from dunning kruger syndrome. I have 6 years of counting in a band and feel my rhythm and pulse keeping is inadequate on piano but you think it's strong after a couple of months. This contrast is what I was pointing out.

If u take dunning Krueger to its logical conclusion, it will always end up in a paradox. Dunning Krueger is just lame scientists way of copying Plato's "I Know that I know nothing"...

I understand I have tons of improvement, and my rhythm is objectively weak. But, how I understand my rhythm I'd consider it strong considering I just learned how to count recently. Like, I can listen to complicated pieces and stay on time in my head for most of it, if not all of it. Or, if I listen to a piece for the first time ever, I can pick out the rhythm and tap along. E.g. I went to my first concert yesterday, and the beethoven tempest was playing, and I've never listened to the piece, but when it got to the beginning of the third movement. I remember being able to tap along to all the accent notes in time, nearly instantly. I'm sure if you make me clap a complicated rhythm with dotted rhythms, or aspects I'm unfamiliar with I will crumble. But, if I focus I can stay in time on basic rhythms. That's what cream colored book does for you...

Also, I never use metronome. I don't recommend using the metronome, maybe that is why your rhythm skills are lacking... Most of the great pianists of the past (in my opinion), either despised the metronome, or if they used it, it was VERY sparingly with a purpose.

You get more out of counting your footsteps when walking than out of a metronome in my opinion, or when you go up stairs or down stairs... Go up in groups of 2 or just go up or down in certain ways....
No one's questioning your sense of rhythm. I only pointed out the difference in how two people with different experience levels evaluate their own sense of rhythm.

I'm not sure why you keep responding with these posts as if it's a debate. There isn't a debate to be had, you can practice your own way. I hope this conversation gives you at least some perspective to adjust the self evaluation of your skills. A teacher would be perfect for this!

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Originally Posted by pablobear
Originally Posted by leel
Iā€™m in no position to judge your playing or aspirations. However, your opinion regarding lessons could be better described. You might try it in the future.



Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Compared to some earlier videos of the OP I'd say he has improved a lot since starting lessons. I would say he is grossly underestimating how much he is learning from his teacher.


Listen, lessons are great. I've done around maybe 20 in my lifetime I think so far. Mostly 30 minute ones.

Over summer though, I studied with an EXCELLENT teacher. We did 5 lessons total. She was really amazing, we literally only went over basic counting and rhythm, and she forced me to do this easy Leila Fletcher book. That book completely transformed my playing in every aspect, rhythmically, interpretation, technique, etc. I still play through a lot of it everyday, if you guys like I can send some of my performances of the pieces. I can make them sound pretty musical for being simple pieces..

Just the issue with lessons is, from reading half of Art of Piano by Neuhaus I think I've gotten much more from that compared to my lessons with these two other teachers... One was a great pianist, she was older maybe in her 60s. But, she couldn't teach me for her life. She was too kind, not straightforward, she was more of the "go watch a waterfall type"

My other teacher at college we do 1 30 min lesson a week, and he barely cares. But, we still have fun and get a good bit done. Most of the lessons are actually guided by me, and he just clears up any little misconceptions, or just forces me to do more challenging stuff that I have questions on (like counting complex rhythms, playing stuff by ear, random interpretation stuff from great pianists, etc.)

The Russian Master teacher I did lessons with was what I BELIEVE a lesson should be, but those lessons were great, but even she said herself her purpose is to teach me so I can figure it out on my own. Which I think by teaching me cream colored book she did a large portion of her job...

I think it's a bit disrespectful to the work I've put in, to say that lessons is a huge factor to my improvement. The few lessons I had with the Russian master, Art of Piano (and some other books from master pianists like Hoffman's book, a bit from Arrau book), my own approach, and youtube has been the overwhelming majority of my improvement. So yeah, lessons definitely helped a lot. But the ones that only really changed me were those 5 with the russian master, and all we did was finish basically the Leila Fletcher cream colored book. I didn't know how to count when I came to her, but she taught me that and that was transformative.
Your post is right up my alley, as I was self taught as an adult student, though I started taking lessons very recently. I was similar to you, in that I wanted to show, at least to myself, that it is possible to learn the piano as an adult. I didn't care about becoming viral. However, I wanted to play FI and the Revolutionary Etude. Now, I can to an extent, probably better than the video of the guy who has been learning for one year. I won't talk about becoming viral -- I'm not viral on YouTube, nor are plenty of others even with impressive 0-100 videos, so it is a bit of a crapshoot.

I also read a lot and watched a lot of videos, to try to pierce together the fundamentals of good technique. I haven't read Neuhaus, but I have read some other books and know what you're talking about when you say they can be very helpful. I think videos by Josh Wright and Graham Fitch played a pretty serious role in my technical development. I used to try and imitate/understand how my favorite pianists were playing by remembering and analyzing their hand movements, so I know precisely what you're talking about. And it can work -- to an extent.

I believe you when you say that those videos and the masterclasses helped more than normal lessons. However, keep this in mind: most really good pianists have had regular lessons with master pianists, not ordinary ones. There is a difference in how they teach. And if you're trying to understand technique at a deep level which it seems you are, you need a really good teacher especially as an adult. I would personally go for a very good teacher even if it results in having less frequent lessons.

From your videos, I think you are doing some things right. You have understood some l certain principles which reflect in your playing. However, they are half-baked. Realize that speed comes from near-complete relaxation of muscles when not in use and minimal movements. Right now, for example, your pinky is going way up and you're playing quite a bit with your fingers. I personally went up to a very good teacher and asked them to teach me proper technique, from scratch, regardless of how tedious it could be. I would recommend it. I have since found out things I wouldn't have been able to figure out from videos and haven't been able to find online in quite the same way.

Also, sorry to be frank, but realize that teachers may be humoring you by saying you're progressing well etc. because they have very low expectations for progress as an adult beginner, and don't want to ruin a hobbyist's interest by being demanding. Expect them to tone down their teaching for adult students, and gloss over minor technical issues, because almost always, that is what they will do for adult students. You will have to specifically request them not to do that.

For me, it took the form of multiple people saying -- you're incredible for an adult student in your situation, but you don't have the hand strength or technical aspects developed like a child with good instruction would. I had to ask around a lot to decode what that meant. Unfortunately, for many pianists, it is subconscious and they can not truly teach certain things.

I wrote quite a bit about my experiences in these posts:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...to-a-new-adult-beginner.html#Post3010526

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Maybe you should consider playing something well within your technical capability and spending time on it to make it shine. The Bach prelude no1 from book 1 is an example of this sort of piece. The notes are easy to learn so you can spend most of your time on technique and interpretation.
The revolutionary study is on the easier end of the Chopin etudes but still an advanced piece and quite tough to play well I think.

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Originally Posted by pablobear
Once I complete these, I want to try something that's flashy (not for my own ego, I just want to blow up on youtube b/c capitalism),

I'm not aware that the best way to monetize an online presence is via a flashy piano performance. Is that likely?

My guess is that "fleshy" would get more attention than "flashy."


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Originally Posted by pablobear
I don't think there is many adult beginners who progress this fast, so I think it would be a great inspiration to them if I work hard on these pieces and complete them in only playing for around a year.
One thing I can say for sure is that it would be anything but the great inspiration. When you progress slowly, and this is a harsh reality for most adult beginners, there hardly is anything more frustrating and demotivating than seeing someone progressing rocket-fast, especially a somewhat younger person. So if you really want to do it to inspire others, you'd better not.

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Well, I suppose if you documented the journey, that could provide useful insights for adult beginners.

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I think lots of pianists that start playing seem to do quite well playing more difficult songs with a lot of practice. What I'm curious about is whether or not you've gotten better at reading music. That, to me, is the sign of true progress. Too many pianists like to just memorize the music or improvise. That's a shortcut, but I think it stunts your growth.

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Originally Posted by Briguy65
I think lots of pianists that start playing seem to do quite well playing more difficult songs with a lot of practice.
Not true. Most gain limited technical facility. It's also probably harder to develop a really solid ear than if developed young. It is very rare to see good technical facility among adult students.

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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Briguy65
I think lots of pianists that start playing seem to do quite well playing more difficult songs with a lot of practice.
Not true. Most gain limited technical facility. It's also probably harder to develop a really solid ear than if developed young. It is very rare to see good technical facility among adult students.
Where are you getting this information from??


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Originally Posted by pablobear
qUICK DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ANY "THIS IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO GO, YOU MUST LEARN EASY PIECE AND KEEP GOING UP PROGESSIVE" YES I AGREE WITH THIS, BUT I'M GOING AGAINST THE BOOK HERE OR AGINST THE GRAIN, BECAUSE I WANT TO GET A PERFORMANCE OF SOMETHING FLASHY AND POST IT ON YOUTUBE AND MAYBE IF I GET LUCKY I CAN GO VIRAL AND INSPIRE A BUNCH OF ADULT BEGINNER PIANISTS AS WELL WHILE IM AT IT WITH MY PROGRESS...

Have you actually played any piece from beginning to end?


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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Pablo, don't believe the videos of people who supposedly show their progress over 1 year and are playing virtuoso pieces at the end. They are all fakes except maybe some of the prodidgy kids. All the adult ones are 100% fake. It's very easy for a pro to look like a beginner.

Right! And I dont see why many pianist have that obsession about time it took for them to get where they're at. They act like "Oh Im so good, I got here in 1 year" and no one cares how long it took to get there. Whether its a prodigy playing or someone that took 30 years I would enjoy hearing them both.

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