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About 2 years ago I decided to re-learn piano and bought a Casio PX-S1000 based on the reviews and the low price (about $600). I wanted to get something that would be close enough to an acoustic piano that it wouldn't hinder my learning too much, but was cheap enough that if I didn't stick with it I wouldn't be out too much money. I've really enjoyed it and play about an hour a day so I expect that I'll stick with it for the foreseeable future. I am, however, starting to get annoyed with some of the limitations of the Casio. I thought the smart people here might be able to help me address the issue that has frustrated me the most, which is the sound quality I'm hearing.

First, the built-in speakers are truly terrible. Is there a way to get better sound when playing with speakers (rather than headphones)? I did try using the line out 1/4" jacks connected to a pair of Emotiva 4S powered speakers (via a 1/4" to RCA conversion plug), and while it's a dramatic improvement it still doesn't sound very much like a real acoustic piano. I don't need a lot of volume, just enough to play in a typical suburban home. Is there some set of hardware, maybe a outboard DAC/amp and speakers that people use to improve the sound quality of digital pianos? Would a digital connection be better, or are the 1/4" analog jacks better to use?

Second, most headphones I've tried (even the $500 Sonus Faber PRYMA) don't sound very good either. Fortunately I have an ancient set of Grado SR-225 headphones that provide by far the best sound quality I've experienced with this piano, so that's what I've used for practice since I bought it. I am happy enough with the sound from the Grados, but if there's a way I could improve it further I would love to know.

If anyone can provide any guidance on how to get better sound - either over speakers or headphones - I would greatly appreciate it! Or, if I'm just too picky for the sound processing in the Casio then what kind of price am I looking at for a digital piano that actually sounds good (which I know is totally subjective)?

I realize this is a newbie question and that "good enough" varies from person to person, so if there's a primer on this stuff just posting a link to that would be most welcome as well.

Oh, one last thing. I am not overly constrained by money but I am not a tinkerer so a simple 90% solution, even if it costs more, would be better than a complex 100% solution that I need to futz with all the time.

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Originally Posted by RichV
About 2 years ago I decided to re-learn piano and bought a Casio PX-S1000 based on the reviews and the low price (about $600). I wanted to get something that would be close enough to an acoustic piano that it wouldn't hinder my learning too much, but was cheap enough that if I didn't stick with it I wouldn't be out too much money. I've really enjoyed it and play about an hour a day so I expect that I'll stick with it for the foreseeable future. I am, however, starting to get annoyed with some of the limitations of the Casio. I thought the smart people here might be able to help me address the issue that has frustrated me the most, which is the sound quality I'm hearing.

First, the built-in speakers are truly terrible. Is there a way to get better sound when playing with speakers (rather than headphones)? I did try using the line out 1/4" jacks connected to a pair of Emotiva 4S powered speakers (via a 1/4" to RCA conversion plug), and while it's a dramatic improvement it still doesn't sound very much like a real acoustic piano. I don't need a lot of volume, just enough to play in a typical suburban home. Is there some set of hardware, maybe a outboard DAC/amp and speakers that people use to improve the sound quality of digital pianos? Would a digital connection be better, or are the 1/4" analog jacks better to use?

Second, most headphones I've tried (even the $500 Sonus Faber PRYMA) don't sound very good either. Fortunately I have an ancient set of Grado SR-225 headphones that provide by far the best sound quality I've experienced with this piano, so that's what I've used for practice since I bought it. I am happy enough with the sound from the Grados, but if there's a way I could improve it further I would love to know.

If anyone can provide any guidance on how to get better sound - either over speakers or headphones - I would greatly appreciate it! Or, if I'm just too picky for the sound processing in the Casio then what kind of price am I looking at for a digital piano that actually sounds good (which I know is totally subjective)?

I realize this is a newbie question and that "good enough" varies from person to person, so if there's a primer on this stuff just posting a link to that would be most welcome as well.

Oh, one last thing. I am not overly constrained by money but I am not a tinkerer so a simple 90% solution, even if it costs more, would be better than a complex 100% solution that I need to futz with all the time.

There are many approaches that you could try:
1) Purchasing better monitors e.g., Focal Alpha 50's.
2) Plugging the Casio into your home hi-fi system
3) Checking to see if the inbuilt headphone amp can actually power the headphones (otherwise, you might need a headphone amp). My Kawai MP7SE can take about 150 ohm cans easily. Your Casio may be less powerful in that respect.
4) If the sound itself is no longer gratifying, you can ---if you have a laptop or PC---install a VSTi such as Pianoteq or Garritan CFX grand, and utilize an external sound source that way.
5) Exchange your beginner instrument for an intermediate instrument.

It maybe that you're now ready for something a bit better anyway. The Casio is designed mainly for wedding gigs and off-piste gigs using battery powered PA systems. It has speakers, but they aren't going to be good for that price-bracket.

There are other portable pianos you could try which have better speakers:
Roland FP90X
Kawai ES920
Yamaha P515

You could also opt for a stage-piano and buy powered monitors..

The resale of the Casio PX-S1000 would part finance the purchase of a used portable or stage piano. I would set a used budget of £750-£850 ($1017 - $1152) and test the models before you go used piano hunting.
This way, you keep the price low, and get the next level of amplification without having to buy monitors. The ES8 is a good buy used.


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There is a limit to the quality of the source in what is still, relatively speaking, a budget instrument. You've tried good quality speakers, good quality headphones... I think the best place to go from here to improve the overall character of the sound is to use the keyboard to drive an external sound source, e.g. a VST on a a laptop, or since simplicity is valued over the utmost in quality, maybe an app like Ravenscroft 275 on an iPhone/iPad. Or, yes, you could look at a higher end DP.... Yamaha P515, Kawai ES520/920, Roland FP60X/FP90X would be the typical choices for a higher quality slab with speakers.

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A friend of mine has a PX-S3000, and the sound quality is pretty good, IMHO. The built-in speakers limit what's possible, but that's true for all slab-format DP's.

There are a few things that you might try:

(a) Experiment with the "Sound Mode / String Resonance" setting. I think that the higher settings work better than the lower settings. I suspect the factory default is "off", which give a very dry sound.

(b) Experiment with the "Sound Mode / Hall Simulator" and Simulator Depth controls. The DP benefits from some reverb.

I don't know anything about the speakers or headphones you've tried, but the Grado's get good reviews in places I trust. You could try large speakers, but you won't get better sound than you will with good headphones. So:

(c) If the built-in DSP effects don't help, and you're using good headphones, then you're up against the limits of the built-in sound generator:

. . . the only way around that, is to use a VST (a piano simulation running on a computer), as suggested above.

Two questions:

1. How is the volume level set, when you play?

2. Can you explain what's _wrong_ with the sound you get?

And a caution:

. . . If you're looking for something that _really_ sounds like an acoustic piano, over loudspeakers,
. . . you may have to spend a lot more money.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 11/08/21 12:55 PM.

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The problem with the S series is the off-kilter action, not the sound. That short pivot point messed up the action.

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Originally Posted by RinTin
The problem with the S series is the off-kilter action, not the sound. That short pivot point messed up the action.

The main economic issue here is the question of whether it's fixable within the OP's budget cheaper than it's fixable by trading in and buying a different piano.

If the OP has a hi-fi, the sound quality might be a cheap fix: some cables only.
If the OP has neither monitors nor a high-fi, second-hand hi-fi might be a cheap solution.

Outside of that powered monitors might be what he needs. The question of quality then arises: what level of sound quality is the OP looking for when it comes to monitors.
That's somewhat subjective and probably needs further investigation by the OP himself via a visit to a store to hear them.

Let's guestimate the used value of the PX-S1000 as $300 dollars. That's probably less money than you'd need to spend on a pair of decent monitors.
Assuming a sale price of $1100 dollars for a used ES8, he'd be paying $900 for a used piano with fairly decent on-board speakers. Looking at guitar centre, it's $350 each ($750/pair) for a set of Focal Alpha 50's.
So for $200 extra, you get a nicer piano sound, better action and reasonable speakers. The upgrade will see the OP through higher grades of music and the action upgrade will be considerable.

On the other hand, let's assume the OP is on a tight budget:
How much would a used Hi-Fi unit cost that could power his Casio?
How much would a half decent headphone amp cost (used) for improving the sound through his cans?


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Wow! Thank you all for the fast and thorough replies!

First, I spent some time listening to each set-up - Grado headphones, 3 other sets of headphones, my Emotiva powered speakers, and my relatively high-end stereo via line-out to RCA. The stereo in questions is a pretty good 2-channel setup, with NAD electronics and Sonus Faber speakers. Total cost, while no guarantee of quality, was about $8k, so it's at least a decent system.
I think I understated the sound quality over headphones. With the Grado headphones I'm actually very happy with the sound. However, every other way of listening sounds closed in, muffled, or a bit lifeless. I can select the bright grand piano or tweak the sound using the controls on the piano, but adding brightness just makes it sound brittle, closed in, and lifeless. So it's not a lack of treble, it's more a sense of the sound being made inside a box rather than inside an instrument, lifeless, and ... just not as open as when listening to an acoustic piano or even when listening using my Grado headphones connected to the PX-S1000.

On to more specific responses. Again - thank you all for your thoughtful contributions!

Doug M. - I think your comment #1 about better monitors might be the best approach. I tried #2, and it didn't fix the issue. I may try a headphone amp with my other headphones, but since I think the sound is ok with the Grados I think that's not likely the issue. Either #4 or #5 is likely to be the best long-term approach, but I'm going to try simpler and less costly approaches first, like the monitors you suggested. I have unexpectedly learned to love the portability of the PX-S1000, so even if I get something better I'll probably hold onto it because of it's portability. Again, cost is a factor, but I'm not worried about the trade-in value of the Casio.

anotherscott - Thank you, I may need to take the steps you mentioned if higher quality monitors don't work.

Charles Cohen - I played around with the sound parameters you mentioned and others, and while they changed the sound it still comes across as lifeless and muffled to me (unless I'm listening over the Grados). The volume is usually set right in the middle of the knob's range.

RinTin - yes, I was aware of that when I purchased it. I haven't had any difficulty yet when playing on my instructor's (acoustic upright) or my mom's baby grand. I probably am simply not good enough to notice the issues you have with the action, and it hasn't yet impacted my ability to play "real" pianos. I do plan to upgrade digital pianos at some point, but for me the action is fine so that won't be a factor unless my abilities improve to the point where it impacts my playing.


Again, than you all for the input. I am thinking about ways to try out better monitors in the hopes that they'll give me the sound I'm looking for. If that doesn't work, I'll probably head down to the local music store to audition some higher-end (probably $1,000-$2,500) pianos to see if there is something that is enough of an improvement to make me part with my money. If those don't make me happy, then I'll start looking into the more complex solutions of computer apps and monitors. But the space and complexity of that approach is very unappealing to me.

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Originally Posted by RichV
. . .
Charles Cohen - I played around with the sound parameters you mentioned and others, and while they changed the sound it still comes across as lifeless and muffled to me (unless I'm listening over the Grados). The volume is usually set right in the middle of the knob's range.
. . .

If the DP sounds OK over the Grado's, then the built-in samples are OK. Your problem is how to match the Grado's frequency response, _and volume_, in a pair of loudspeakers, without breaking the budget too badly.

A suggestion:

. . . Raise the PX-S1000 volume to somewhere between 3/4 and full volume.

That may make the headphones too loud, but it should get better sound out of the built-in speakers.

One of the things people forget is that acoustic pianos are _loud_, and our hearing is affected by sound intensity:

. . . If you don't play the piano's samples back at "live piano" volume levels, they won't sound like a live piano. See "Fletcher-Munson curve" in Wikipedia for a full discussion.

If you can add "loudness compensation" (either with the DP, or with the hi-fi system), that might help you out.

If I remember right, the total power of the amps you're using is around 50 watts. 100 watts (and larger bass drivers) would be better. 200 watts and 8" drivers is "Enough!", for normal-size rooms. (There are lots of threads about powered monitors, here. I'm summarizing, and cherry-picking -- I'm biased against small drivers.)

Let us know what happens, please . . .

]


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> If those don't make me happy, then I'll start looking into the more complex solutions of computer apps and monitors. But the space and complexity of that approach is very unappealing to me.

Just give Pianoteq demo a try, costs nothing. Compare to the built-in sound using your headphones. If you find you like it, it can be installed on a Pi 400.

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It's nearly always impossible to match the quality of sound through headphones via speakers, on a budget. There are lots of previous threads after this holy grail. You can get a good sound if the samples or tone generator is good, but good in a different sense from what you hear over headphones. .

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I have a PX S3000, and though I use it mainly as a portable controller for vst's, I've found nearly always when I've been unhappy with internal sounds on this and previous DP's, apart from feeding it into better external sound systems, fiddling with EQ is my biggest issue. I also have an MP11SE, and the default settings for the pianos, to me sound terrible, mainly because of EQ, and a lot of that is my own hearing issues. In fact on default, bizarrely to me the Casio's sound kinder on my ears than the Kawai's!
One thing though about the PX's, when they first came out, they were advertising increased sample sustain times than the previous models.
I tend to play with quite a bit of sustain, and the looping to me is quite pronounced in the bass notes. This must be how they increased those sustain times. It bugs me a lot when I use the inbuilt piano sounds. With cheap memory these days, I thought that was a trick of yesteryear.

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I personally suspect you are coming up against the limitations of the sound source in the Casio. The more we get used to playing an instrument like this, after substantial adaptation, the more apparent its flaws will become too -- things like the looping Deltajocky mentioned above, the few sample layers, etc.

I would personally suggest going the VST route. That can be its own rabbit hole but for many of us who are sensitive to sound quality -- in my own case, I have significantly more knowledge in acoustics than actually making music. Short of something super high end like the Kawai Novus NV5, I don't know if I'm happy with the built in sounds of any piano on the market.

I would advise against trying to improve your sound system too much at this point. I regularly test and measure multi-thousand dollars speakers for work (and for fun), and diminishing returns hit hard -- not to mention many uber expensive systems are no better than some high quality budget systems. Emotiva actually makes some of the best bang for buck stuff on the market, and I'd happily take the 4S over some $4,000+ speakers I've reviewed... They're not perfect (a little lacking in lower midrange energy and bright in the top end), but certainly decent. That you like the grados is nice, but more likely they just mask some flaw in the Casio than they have some special quality that makes them sound better.

(I say all this as someone who really likes his Casio PX-560, by the way).

As others mentioned, download a VST that offers a trial and see if you like it. Unfortunately there aren't many sampled pianos that offer trials, but a few do have decent return policies, and there are a few solid cheap ones. I'd personally recommend the embertone walker D Lite for just $39 -- almost certainly will provide a bigger sound quality improvement than hundreds of dollars spent on audio gear. Gets you 90% of the way of the full library without breaking the bank. Production voices is currently selling a CFX library for $29 too. If you happen to have an elicenser key, VSL is currently offering a 30-day trial of a 'lite' version of their Steinway sample library, which sounds excellent even in reduced size form.

If you still want to upgrade your audio gear, I'm more than happy to provide some recommendations, but based on what you've said I suspect you will end up wanting to improve the actual sound engine eventually, so I'd recommend going this route.

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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Let us know what happens, please . . .

Will do! I have a reminder set on my phone to revisit this thread with an update.


Originally Posted by napilopez
in my own case, I have significantly more knowledge in acoustics than actually making music. Short of something super high end like the Kawai Novus NV5, I don't know if I'm happy with the built in sounds of any piano on the market.

I would advise against trying to improve your sound system too much at this point. I regularly test and measure multi-thousand dollars speakers for work (and for fun), and diminishing returns hit hard -- not to mention many uber expensive systems are no better than some high quality budget systems.

Thanks, this is a good perspective and very relevant to me. I think I may be closer to you than to other people on this board, although without your level of knowledge and experience. In college I worked in a high-end audio store (think Levinson, B&W, Meridian, Sonus Faber, etc.) and my focus was on installing and setting up the high-end systems the sales guys sold. We occasionally worked with the builders and real acoustic designers for the ultra-high end installations. My ears aren't as good as theirs, but I did "train" on some crazy systems in some very well designed rooms, and as a Physics major I studied acoustics both in school and on the job. We had a couple of clients with the old B&S Nautilus speakers and Levinson No. 33 monoblocks in a room built from the ground up for good acoustics with a 2-channel system. It's not the same as a real piano in a hall, but I did develop a taste for high-end audio and a middling understanding of acoustics. I didn't get hit too hard with that bug, but I do appreciate good quality sound reproduction. Unfortunately my piano playing abilities are decidedly intermediate level...

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. . . It's not the same as a real piano in a hall, but I did develop a taste for high-end audio and a middling understanding of acoustics. I didn't get hit too hard with that bug, but I do appreciate good quality sound reproduction. . .

Getting "high-end presence", in amps and speakers, usually requires high-end expenditure.<G>

Expect to end up with 8" woofers (or an equivalent subwoofer, with a really low low-frequency cutoff). Perfectly possible, but not cheap.

I'd suggest using a different sound generator, but you seem happy with the Grado's, so it's not the PX-S1000 samples that's limiting the sound quality.

Don't get lost in the tall grass. Time spent improving the sound, is time lost from practicing. (You can guess how I learned this . . . )


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I wonder what would you say about Casio PX-S1100. The piano sound is improved, Casio claims.


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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
I wonder what would you say about Casio PX-S1100. The piano sound is improved, Casio claims.
From what I've read, the actually piano sound is identical, but they improved the damper/string resonances (and the speakers, but that's obviously not a factor here).

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I owned a PX-S1000 for about 6 months and loved everything about it ...except for one thing.

The difficulty with pressing down the black keys close to the back of the keys.

That's it.

If they improve that I may give it another try.


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I have tested for 15 minutes the S1000 and for half an hour the S1100, head to head, through an headset (I cannot remember brand and model, maybe AKG) and their inbuilt speakers.

The sound is not the same at all. Of course, the overall nature is the same (I assume Casio hasn’t redone sampling) but the 1100 is a little more detailed and deep, with a perceivable improvement of the 1000’s feel of muffled, closed sound in the “ottava che canta”.

I cannot perceive such a big difference with the new “MICA” speakers: the issue of weak basses is just the same.

But let’s remember that we are considering a product in the range of 500 EUR. in this price range, I cannot think about a better sounding gear.

The black keys? If you play close to the end, they are hard, but this is not the real issue. The real issue is that if you play the black keys close to the end, your technique is underdeveloped.

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Originally Posted by WTF Bach
I have tested for 15 minutes the S1000 and for half an hour the S1100...The sound is not the same at all.
I haven't played them, I might have been wrong to suggest otherwise. And their promo material does list "German concert grand" as a key feature of the newer model. Also, for some reason, I seem to remember reading that one of the piano sounds that was on the PX-S3000 that was not on the 1000 was added to the 1100...? OTOH, the patch names on the 1000 and 1100 are the same. Though if you heard a difference, I guess that's what matters!

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by WTF Bach
I have tested for 15 minutes the S1000 and for half an hour the S1100...The sound is not the same at all.
I haven't played them, I might have been wrong to suggest otherwise. And their promo material does list "German concert grand" as a key feature of the newer model. Also, for some reason, I seem to remember reading that one of the piano sounds that was on the PX-S3000 that was not on the 1000 was added to the 1100...? OTOH, the patch names on the 1000 and 1100 are the same. Though if you heard a difference, I guess that's what matters!

My impression is that the samples are the same, but some processing algorhythm has been improved.

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