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If you could go for it now, would the GL10 or GB1K be a worthy upgrade over the N1X? 🤔


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Originally Posted by Beowulf
If you could go for it now, would the GL10 or GB1K be a worthy upgrade over the N1X? 🤔

Absolutely. There's something in acoustic pianos, even cheap ones (even my old upright) that makes them alive. Admittedly I haven't played GL10 or GB1K, however I've played another baby grand by Yamaha, as well as some other baby grands whose brand I don't remember and I always liked them. This is me though. On the other hand I wouldn't be able to create videos with nice piano sound for YouTube, as from VST-s or the N1X itself. But I don't play the piano to post on YouTube laugh

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Beowulf
If you could go for it now, would the GL10 or GB1K be a worthy upgrade over the N1X? 🤔

Absolutely. There's something in acoustic pianos, even cheap ones (even my old upright) that makes them alive. Admittedly I haven't played GL10 or GB1K, however I've played another baby grand by Yamaha, as well as some other baby grands whose brand I don't remember and I always liked them. This is me though. On the other hand I wouldn't be able to create videos with nice piano sound for YouTube, as from VST-s or the N1X itself. But I don't play the piano to post on YouTube laugh

I totally agree with this, so it's not only CG. As I said many times there is something "special" in the sound of even the most inexpensive and beaten up acoustic. Alive is a nice way to put it.

Obviously digitals have many other benefits, including harpsichord sound, MIDI, historical temperaments, silent practice, just to name a few I use (in addition to recording as CG mentioned). I am fortunate to have both an acoustic golden era baby grand and a Yamaha NU1. Like all human beings I'd like "something better" and I hope one day to upgrade either or both. If my wife would force me to pick just one instrument (and I suspect she will try, but I hope she will fail smile ), I would go with a grand only, rather than a digital only. I am intrigued by the (relatively) inexpensive Artist Series by M&H, but it's a new series and I have not tried them in person yet. Some people are "offended" that they are built in China (see the thread about it on the piano forum), but I expect them to be very good instrument (they are built by the same company, probably in the same facility where they also build Ritmuller, which are highly regarded instruments, despite being made in China). The M&H Artist Series features the entirely-carbon-fiber WNG action, which is excellent. Otherwise the Kawai GL10 (with a partially carbon-fiber action) is marginally smaller, marginally cheaper and a strong contender (and the GL20 is same size and price of the M&H A160G). I personally prefer Kawai over Yamaha for touch and tone, so I have not explored the Yamaha option. See https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/mason-hamlin/ and https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/kawai/

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Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by mwf
Just got back from a shop comparing nv10 and n1x literally side by side in same hybrid room. Also tried the NV5 which bizarrely is probably the best sounding instrument when played on live out of any of the grand hybrids, however why anyone would specifically want an upright action is beyond me so it's not in the equation.

Second time ive played N1X, and the samples are pretty great to be honest. It's just severely let down by the speaker system in my opinion, i can't physically stand the poor quality of it, its like its bordering on distorting. The sound is far too harsh. The action is also basically just the entry level GBK1 grand they make so nothing special, it's stiff and fairly heavy, but also responsive and fast regardless, it's an ok action.

Jumped on nv10 and not impressed with speaker system either, it's more boxy but less harsh and in your face than the yamaha. It's mildly better than the n1x overall, samples wise on the nv10, not bad, different to yamaha, probably not quite as 'good' but they are still rich sounding and ideal for classical piano mainly.

Anyway I've decided on the nv10 simply because I can't stop wanting to play on its sublime action... I'll run a vst through it like garritan if i want
a different sound anyway. I don't think you can get a better action on a piano unless you spend more towards £20,000, it surpasses most grands I've played on costing alot more. Its fast, handles repeated notes far better than anything else, especially the n1x or n3x, which I think share same action anyway, it's effortless and your hands glide over the keys like clouds of silk...Kawai should be applauded for making this action in my opinion. I can be as expressive as i like on it, beautifully balanced weighting overall.

The speaker system will do, the sampling will do, the action has won me over completely...its astonishingly good.
Did you happen to do a comparison using headphones? I would be playing almost exclusively that way. Thanks.

I don't ever play with headphones... I don't see the point in buying a piano like that and not playing through its speakers.
One of the main reasons people by hybrids is to be able to play them silently so as not to disturb neighbors or people in their home.

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Jumping on the acoustic grand train (dogpile?) wink I'd also have one today if I could play at volume whether I want, and I think of be happy with small grand, too.

I had a thread earlier in the year at the beginning of the epidemic about guessing whether students were playing on acoustics or digitals, just by listening without watching the screen during my daughter's Zoom recitals. We all know how horrible Zoom audio quality is, and even then, I was literally 30 for 30 when I just stopped bothering, it was so easy to tell within a single note or chord being played whether a piano was a digital or acoustic (and even between acoustic uprights and grands). And these were a wide variety of both digitals and acoustics, including old family and chinese uprights, Yamaha and Kawai grands, and even one kid with what I suspect is an imported Hamburg Model D (we probably all know a family like that).

I'm starting to feel that isolated, anechoic close-micing of a grand for DP sampling is such a false god. Nobody presses their ear down to the strings when they play or listen to a piano, so why should we be recording it that way (especially when we don't have the rest of the instrument that changes and molds the sound before it leaves the piano).

I also think there is no coincidence why Garritan CFX, VSL, and Yamaha's binaural CFX are so popular--none of these are recorded in such a "pristine" and artificial way, they're all far-miced from the player or audience perspective, and they sound SO much more real for it.


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For me personally as i live in a detached home the noise is normally not an issue unless playing loudly in the late evenings. My neighbour next to me loves my playing, in fact so does the one down from them and another house which is actually a long way off, must be able to hear me in their large back garden sometimes.

I don't live in a large house though, it's just detached. The problem I have always had with dps is the thumping sound they make. It enrages my mother, has done for about 20 years now bless her. She don't mind if she hears the sound of the piano AND the thumping, just not the thumping by itself with no sound... Hence why I never play with headphones, as those around you or in another room can only hear that annoying thumping sound from the keys hitting the Keybed.

Something like a nv10 I guess will emphasise that thumping sound via headphones as its an even louder mechanism.

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I could turn the volume knob on my N1X up to 2 o'clock in the middle of the night and my neighbours right beside me, on the other side of the wall where the piano is placed against, could only hear a very faint sound.


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@mwf,
Thank you for sharing the experience, which is very helpful for those who are hesitant between these DP models but can't try them all.
Maybe the best solution is to combine the NV5 soundboard+NV10 keyboard action.
Of course, it will be NV11 or NV20 in future as Pete said.
As always, I will wait with Pete for the new NV20 to come out, hope it has larger soundboard than the smaller one on CA9X&NV5. I think I'll definitely upgrade to it from my CA98.


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Originally Posted by Beowulf
I could turn the volume knob on my N1X up to 2 o'clock in the middle of the night and my neighbours right beside me, on the other side of the wall where the piano is placed against, could only hear a very faint sound.
Are you talking about the hearing clicking sound of the action? Is this when you are using headphones? Is the neighbor's bedroom on the other side of the wall between your apartments?

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Are you talking about the hearing clicking sound of the action? Is this when you are using headphones? Is the neighbor's bedroom on the other side of the wall between your apartments?
Was talking about the voice, not the action. And, it's their living room right on the other side. Was doing a little test on up to what volume through the speakers would I start to bother them.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
There's something in acoustic pianos, even cheap ones (even my old upright) that makes them alive.



They say that acoustic pianos have "soul", or "life". I believe that this sensation of life has a tactile and a sound component, and that the combination of both produces that special and pleasant sensation in the brain of the person who plays.

These two elements are:
A) a strong tactile vibration that is felt when playing an acoustic,
B) the quality and amplitude of the sound emitted by an extensive surface of good quality wood, thick and dense, such as the soundboard.

However the small cardboard speaker cones on a digital piano (including hybrids) do not produce either of those two characteristics; or at least they don't do it with enough quality or with enough intensity.
Neither do shoddy acoustics, for example the ones with the infamous cheap laminated wood soundboard like the Yamaha b1. I don't think anyone who has ever played a b1 can honestly say that this kind of crude and foul dowel "has a soul and is alive." It is the only keyboard instrument from Yamaha that does not deserve the name of piano.
Therefore the mere fact of having metal strings that transmit their vibration to a piece of wood does not give an instrument that mysterious something that makes them alive.

In fact I think that "feeling of life" would also be obtained in a cheap simple digital piano by adding good amplification and adding large 15" speakers and an 18" cardioid subwoofer (turning the volume as low as possible to avoid damaging the ears, of course).

Someone has tried?

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Originally Posted by Dasangulyan
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There's something in acoustic pianos, even cheap ones (even my old upright) that makes them alive.



They say that acoustic pianos have "soul", or "life". I believe that this sensation of life has a tactile and a sound component, and that the combination of both produces that special and pleasant sensation in the brain of the person who plays.

<snip>

Someone has tried?

I have. I both fed the output of a couple of VSTs to a driver mounted on the soundboard of my grand piano, and I listened to the recordings of acoustic pianos (including my own) through the speakers of my NU1.

The short results are that
- the VSTs did not get any better when hear from the soundboard
- the recordings of acoustic pianos sounded really alive even that way

So in my opinion and experience neither A) nor B) are so important as usually people say.

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First of all, N1X and NV10 and far better than beaten uprights, harsh uprights in good condition (so Yamahas from 70 and 80). However, for not much more you can most probably get few years old high quality chinese grand like Ritmuller, Hailun, korean Young Chang etc. There are also lots of stencil Chinese pianos therefore "high quality chinese" is important to mention. Cheap Yamahas and Kawais and so on.

I was thinking last times what to do when I have 100 year old upright: but good new upright OR buy digital grand. I decided to buy digital grand. I have space at home for two pianos, I still have my real thing AND I have real grand action and quite good digital sound. It's best to have both if one one.

Moving from top digital to the cheapest grand - you have to decide by yourself. It's extremely short - only 146cm, and really you cannot expect anything great from it. Only pianos made in last few years which are 156cm long started to sound ok due to development.

While having a grand is nice thing, I would really think few times whether so short piano is good, considering all of it's limitations. If you can buy 155 long story starts to look different.

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Originally Posted by Dasangulyan
In fact I think that "feeling of life" would also be obtained in a cheap simple digital piano by adding good amplification and adding large 15" speakers and an 18" cardioid subwoofer (turning the volume as low as possible to avoid damaging the ears, of course).
Someone has tried?

The Yamaha Avantgrand N2 fitts that description of a digital piano with a great speaker and amplification system. However it's not in the cheap digital piano category; it's one of the most expensive ones.


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[/quote]The Yamaha Avantgrand N2 fitts that description of a digital piano with a great speaker[/quote]

Well, I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the 16 cm speakers on the Yamaha N2 are "big speakers". I think big speaker are 18-inch, or 15-inch minimum. The cone of an 18-inch subwoofer has an area about 9 times larger than a small 16-cm speaker. And also the material from which it is made is denser and thicker. The result is a much more impressive sound effect.
Think about this: the cartilage that constitutes our outer ears is capable of subtly vibrating when subjected to sound waves emitted by a large vibrating body, such as the soundboard of an acoustic piano, as well as large speakers. Probably that vibration of our outer ears plays an important role in that feeling, imprecise and difficult to describe, that an acoustic piano is "alive".
I don't think a 16cm speaker will rattle your ears (maybe Bugs Bunny's, but not a human's).

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Originally Posted by Dasangulyan
I don't think a 16cm speaker will rattle your ears (maybe Bugs Bunny's, but not a human's).

Ah, I see. You want something to destroy your eardrums with. Well, good luck with that.


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Originally Posted by Zanoni
Ah, I see. You want something to destroy your eardrums with. Well, good luck with that.

You are correct in giving me that warning. But notice that in my post I said that you had to set the volume as low as possible to avoid hearing damage.

It seems to me that the secret to the feeling that an acoustic piano has a "soul" lies in the broad vibration produced by a large solid piece (the soundboard), and that it can be reproduced quite faithfully by large speakers (putting the volume as low as possible to avoid hearing damage, of course).

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Originally Posted by Dasangulyan
It seems to me that the secret to the feeling that an acoustic piano has a "soul" lies in the broad vibration produced by a large solid piece (the soundboard), and that it can be reproduced quite faithfully by large speakers (putting the volume as low as possible to avoid hearing damage, of course).

As I mentioned in my earlier comment, this statement is not true.

I can hear the "soul" of a (real, good acoustic) piano in a recording playing on "tiny" speakers (of my NU1), and I did not hear any soul in a couple of virtual instruments which I drove on the soundboard of my grand. Now, the latter part could have been my not-expert way to connect all the parts correctly, so I concede if you say that. However how do you explain the first point?

Have you tried the same test yourself? It's an easy test, and it's eye opening. The speakers do have an effect, but that is for 3D spacial recognition, kinesthesis and things like that, which obviously will be missing when using inadequate speakers. Yet, the "soul" is clearly there. Most well-done random recordings of acoustic pianos in youtube vs a piece in the similar style from the virtual instrument of your choice from the vendor's website (which arguably should be the best you can get out of it...)

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
I can hear the "soul" of a (real, good acoustic) piano in a recording playing on "tiny" speakers (of my NU1), and I did not hear any soul in a couple of virtual instruments which I drove on the soundboard of my grand.

Your comment, Del Vento, is very interesting, as well as your tests to detect where the "soul" of an acoustic piano is.

Let me ask you:

1) When you say that you hear the soul of a good acoustic piano even through 16 cm speakers, what exactly do you mean by "soul"?

2) Do you admit the possibility that the sensation of hearing the "soul" of the acoustic piano through the NU1 was psychologically influenced because you knew that what you were hearing was the sound of an acoustic?

3) If acoustics, all acoustics, have "soul", would you pass a blind test to distinguish between low quality acoustic and high quality digital sounds?

4) If I have understood what you are saying, I think that in your second test there is a basic methodological error: you played on your grand piano sounds originally emitted by a digital piano, that is, by small speakers. You brought those "thin" and "small amplitude" sounds to an acoustic's soundboard, and it played them. Analogously, that is like enlarging a low resolution image a lot. As much as you enlarge it, the image quality is not improved; quite the contrary: its low resolution is perceived with greater clarity.

5) Where do you think that what is called the "soul" of an acoustic piano resides? What exactly does it consist of?

6) Do you think it may have to do with the faint and subtle vibration that high amplitude sound waves produce in the eardrums and outer ears (and even in the face, especially in the cartilage of the nose, etc.), and what is perceived by the brain even though that remains on a semi-conscious level for the person's mind?

As far as I'm concerned, I haven't done the tests that you have done. All I have been able to experience in this regard is playing on my two pianos, a 48-inch European upright, and a Kawai CA65 digital, switching from one to the other (they are in the same room) and trying to perceive what differentiates them, and what makes playing an acoustic so special and so rewarding compared to a digital with small speakers.

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Originally Posted by Dasangulyan
Originally Posted by Del Vento
I can hear the "soul" of a (real, good acoustic) piano in a recording playing on "tiny" speakers (of my NU1), and I did not hear any soul in a couple of virtual instruments which I drove on the soundboard of my grand.

Your comment, Del Vento, is very interesting, as well as your tests to detect where the "soul" of an acoustic piano is.

Let me ask you:

1) When you say that you hear the soul of a good acoustic piano even through 16 cm speakers, what exactly do you mean by "soul"?

2) Do you admit the possibility that the sensation of hearing the "soul" of the acoustic piano through the NU1 was psychologically influenced because you knew that what you were hearing was the sound of an acoustic?

3) If acoustics, all acoustics, have "soul", would you pass a blind test to distinguish between low quality acoustic and high quality digital sounds?

4) If I have understood what you are saying, I think that in your second test there is a basic methodological error: you played on your grand piano sounds originally emitted by a digital piano, that is, by small speakers. You brought those "thin" and "small amplitude" sounds to an acoustic's soundboard, and it played them. Analogously, that is like enlarging a low resolution image a lot. As much as you enlarge it, the image quality is not improved; quite the contrary: its low resolution is perceived with greater clarity.

5) Where do you think that what is called the "soul" of an acoustic piano resides? What exactly does it consist of?

6) Do you think it may have to do with the faint and subtle vibration that high amplitude sound waves produce in the eardrums and outer ears (and even in the face, especially in the cartilage of the nose, etc.), and what is perceived by the brain even though that remains on a semi-conscious level for the person's mind?

As far as I'm concerned, I haven't done the tests that you have done. All I have been able to experience in this regard is playing on my two pianos, a 48-inch European upright, and a Kawai CA65 digital, switching from one to the other (they are in the same room) and trying to perceive what differentiates them, and what makes playing an acoustic so special and so rewarding compared to a digital with small speakers.

Thanks for raising these very valid objections and questions!

1) I can think of two things. One is in the experience of playing it, and I'll leave that discussion for another day. The other is in the sound itself. Probably timbre is close enough of a definition, however it definitely must include changes in timbre according to playing volumes and pitch (different timbre for different notes and for different dynamics)

2) I would say "no", but since by training I am a scientist, I have to admit that only with double blind test one can be really sure. Otherwise horses know how to count! (if you don't get my last exclamation, google it up)

3) I would say "yes", but only testing one can be really sure

4) No, I played a virtual instrument, straight out of the digital output of the computer, to a sound interface, to an amplifier, to the driver attached to the soundboard. So (if I understand your objection right), I was not affected by what you say. But I admit that to get good results one needs to be able to expertly use all the parts involved and I might have made something wrong.

5) see 1)

6) Well, no -- at least if we define it as timbre (as I am making for the purpose of this discussion)

I suggest that you try the following simple experiment (similar to the first part of what I have done).

Step 1. Find a microphone and other equipment to record yourself (your smartphone is ok).

Step 2. Pick a piece and play it on the digital piano, while recording yourself both as MIDI and with the microphone of Step 1. Listen to the two recordings and decide if the MIDI recording is too clean (devoid of background noises) and clearly identifiable. You can even skip this part and just record you via the microphone directly, if you so prefer -- this will greatly simplify the subsequent steps.

Step 3. Pick another piece and play it on your acoustic and record yourself with the same phone (alternatively, if you have another person who plays the piano, instruct them to do the recording in your absence so you don't know what-is-what)

Step 4. Play (or have the other person play) the same piece of step 3 on the digital, in the way decided in step 2 (microphone or MIDI).

Step 5. On your computer make a WAV file of the performance of step 4. Better not listen to it. As appropriate (i.e. it could be in the piano itself or in other way, depending on decision taken in step 2) create other WAV of the recording on the digital piano. Name them clearly

Step 6 (optional, very useful for the double-blind) select a small excerpt (perhaps with audacity, so you can "see" the notes in the two recordings and align them, without hearing them) of just 5-10 notes from both recordings, align them so they last the same time, they have the same volume (audacity can do that with "normalization") and don't contain other clues (e.g. the noises at the beginning of the recording, a dog barking in the middle of the performance, etc). Name them clearly. Then make copies with random names such as ASvN.wav and WoTZ.wav

Step 7. Let a few weeks go by, so hopefully your memory fade and you forget what you might have done different in one performance compared to the other and hopefully the file names too. At that point play ASvN.wav and WoTZ.wav via the digital piano (either directly, if it supports that, or via the line-in from the computer/phone). See if you can identify what you hear. Use a diff tool to match the random names to the clearly named ones and see if you were right.

Now this will obviously be a moot point if your acoustic is e.g. very dark timbre whereas your digital is very bright.... When I did it myself (sadly without step 6, which I did not think at the time) I had two similarly bright instruments and it was very clear to me that the acoustic had a "plasticky" aspect in its sound. The acoustic I have now is vary dark and the digital is decently bright (by the way an NU1 which is for sale, if anybody's interested) so I am not repeating the test at the moment.

Last edited by Del Vento; 11/12/21 07:51 PM.
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