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Originally Posted by cygnusdei
Perhaps put yourself in the manufacturer's shoes. It's likely that whatever innovations/ features/ improvements that people are clamoring for right now are already developed and ready to be deployed. But why are they not in the latest offerings? Because they have to think of DP as long term, lifestyle habit that needs to be cultivated in the consumers. They have to trickle out the new improvements enough so people can justify an upgrade now, but not so much that they put off purchasing a new one for more than 3 years. It's the consumer's buying habit that drives R&D and sustains the whole DP enterprise. You make progress possible.

You should put yourself into the shoes of a DP salesman. Then you'd recognize that most consumers have no clue. They want it cheap, small and fit nicely in their living room. Or get a bad starter instrument for their kids. They don't care that contact rubber isn't the most reliable dynamics measurement method, which is why optical DPs are still so expensive, why most DPs are small, cheap, and usually thrown away after a few years after warranty runs out, nor have they ever heard the term "pivot". You are mostly out of luck if you look at it from a serious player perspective. DP builders primarily don't care about people lurking in forums like these. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Last edited by Marc345; 11/19/21 01:37 PM.

HW: MP11SE, Touche SE (+Arturia Keylab Ess. 88, Akai MPK249, in reserve: GEM Promega 3)
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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Note Gamma1734 has a silent piano, not a hybrid. It is a confusing term. Hybrids may not suffer from this problem. And we don't know how general it is for silent pianos.

@gamma talks about the axis of the key which I assume is the balance rail.

@pianogabe talks about the shank hitting the silencing rail

I think those are different things.

@ambrozy mentions that strings don’t absorb much energy drawing into question the statements from the tech working @gammas piano

@ambrozy has a silent piano often called hybrid but not to be confused with hybrids that are purely digital which have no strings.





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Last edited by Purdy; 11/20/21 10:28 AM.

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Originally Posted by Purdy
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Note Gamma1734 has a silent piano, not a hybrid. It is a confusing term. Hybrids may not suffer from this problem. And we don't know how general it is for silent pianos.

@gamma talks about the axis of the key which I assume is the balance rail.

@pianogabe talks about the shank hitting the silencing rail

I think those are different things.

@ambrozy mentions that strings don’t absorb much energy drawing into question the statements from the tech working @gammas piano

@ambrozy has a silent piano often called hybrid but not to be confused with hybrids that are purely digital which have no strings.
That doesn't make sense either, to me, I never heard of the balance rail wearing out and having to be replaced. New felts maybe. I think he means the hammer shank by axis but am not sure.

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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
That doesn't make sense either, to me, I never heard of the balance rail wearing out and having to be replaced. New felts maybe. I think he means the hammer shank by axis but am not sure.

I think so too. Like me he is not a native speaker. I believe he meant hammer shank because that is the only thing that comes in direct contact with the stop bar. And mechanically the stop bar is the only thing that is different between a silent piano and a non-silent one.

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I could see how axis is a translation for a cylinder and could be the shank.

If he is damaging and denting the hammer shank that would make sense.

And that would be an issue with all silent pianos since rather than impacting the hammer you are impacting the shank in silent mode.

It would of interest to know if this is an issue for others. I assume the stop bar mute rail has felt or something similar on it for the shank to hit.


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Originally Posted by Marc345
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
Perhaps put yourself in the manufacturer's shoes. It's likely that whatever innovations/ features/ improvements that people are clamoring for right now are already developed and ready to be deployed. But why are they not in the latest offerings? Because they have to think of DP as long term, lifestyle habit that needs to be cultivated in the consumers. They have to trickle out the new improvements enough so people can justify an upgrade now, but not so much that they put off purchasing a new one for more than 3 years. It's the consumer's buying habit that drives R&D and sustains the whole DP enterprise. You make progress possible.

You should put yourself into the shoes of a DP salesman. Then you'd recognize that most consumers have no clue. They want it cheap, small and fit nicely in their living room. Or get a bad starter instrument for their kids. They don't care that contact rubber isn't the most reliable dynamics measurement method, which is why optical DPs are still so expensive, why most DPs are small, cheap, and usually thrown away after a few years after warranty runs out, nor have they ever heard the term "pivot". You are mostly out of luck if you look at it from a serious player perspective. DP builders primarily don't care about people lurking in forums like these. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I think you'd be right if we were talking about entry level DPs, but once you're talking about DPs which are 1500 to 3000 dollars, reputations depend on finer issues than does it fit into my son's bedroom. And at the mo' we're talking about hybrids which cost much more of course. Nice of you to invite the correction! 😁


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Originally Posted by Marc345
Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
I have just been watching a video by a young pianist who has purchased a Yamaha N-3X hybrid piano.

Can you link that video if possible?

Apart from that, I agree. Even formally they don't even try to imitate the real good stuff like the concert grands (probably because full mechanics on display attract more customers than an action that actually resembles the playability of one of the finest instruments...). Old topic: pivot lengths. The AvantGrand series does not really shine in that respect. The LX-706 seems to make some progress and for only 3k€ it matches the Novus pivots. However, I wouldn't want to repair that thing because like most keyboards they made the contact rubbers as inaccessible as possible - despite the fact that they put that action into a huge upright form factor......... wtf. Just think about it: disassemble the entire keyboard and half of the piano, then reassemble it, just to discover that it's still not working properly.... rinse, repeat. Holy cow, what a design flaw. And they are ALL doing it (to some extent). That tells you what type of consumer they address: just throw it away when your guarantee runs out.

Another point: have you ever seen a guaranteed tolerance for key response precision? By any manufacturer? At all? ie. how uniform must the velocity response (MIDI data) be in order to be considered "functional"? Noone cares. Noone measures it. Poeple just complain if it becomes too obvious. Now think about people starting to learn the piano on a badly regulated instrument and mistrain their ears playstyle... the more I get into these things, the more I despise the whole DP industry. I'm currently thinking about using a simple non-hammer MIDI controller for playing, cost me 339€. Simply because I'm refusing to "upgrade" to something of which I can't even be sure that it's actually better and easily repairable.


Sure I can. I'm glad I posted this thread, even if I'm the least qualified here to discuss these things. Many interesting posts have emerged. But guys, please feel free to move on to other topics of missing innovation in DPs and Hybrids if you want to.



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Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
I think you'd be right if we were talking about entry level DPs, but once you're talking about DPs which are 1500 to 3000 dollars, reputations depend on finer issues than does it fit into my son's bedroom.

Is that a fact or do you just make an assumption? I don't see any benefit of the N3X besides fitting nicely into a living room for decorative purposes. At least not any benefit that would fit the additional price tag of 10k€ over the N1X. Also, the above video confirms my position: she finds out about the (minor) downsides after a year, not before. heck, she even complains about the light touch..... one should think before buying a 17k€ instrument, she'd at least be aware of how the keys feel. But no.

Last edited by Marc345; 11/27/21 12:03 PM.

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Originally Posted by Marc345
Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
I think you'd be right if we were talking about entry level DPs, but once you're talking about DPs which are 1500 to 3000 dollars, reputations depend on finer issues than does it fit into my son's bedroom.

Is that a fact or do you just make an assumption? I don't see any benefit of the N3X besides fitting nicely into a living room for decorative purposes. At least not any benefit that would fit the additional price tag of 10k€ over the N1X. Also, the above video confirms my position: she finds out about the (minor) downsides after a year, not before. heck, she even complains about the light touch..... one should think before buying a 17k€ instrument, she'd at least be aware of how the keys feel. But no.

I think you're being a bit hard on her, and unless you have tested N3X thoroughly, your comment comparing the two instruments is invalid. She said that she doesn't regret buying the N3X, but that it doesn't do everything she'd like it to do. (Excuse my paraphrasing.)

My original point was that Yamaha had the opportunity to build the ideal practice (and creative?) hybrid piano for professional classical pianists, and seems to have fallen slightly short, mainly due to the action being too light. I have not tried this piano, however, so I can't confirm what she says, but I suspect that Yamaha is trying to sell a populist instrument with the glamour and price tag of something more exclusive. I'm a big fan of Yamaha, so I hope I am wrong. The N3X is just an example - the problem isn't just Yamaha. This could be an area where all the manufacturers are falling unnecessarily short. They have the technology to produce great professional hybrid practice instruments, with ideal actions at the very least, but they always stop slightly short it seems.


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Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
My original point was that Yamaha had the opportunity to build the ideal practice (and creative?) hybrid piano for professional classical pianists, and seems to have fallen slightly short, mainly due to the action being too light.

Of course this is all very subjective; but I find the AvantGrand actions not light at all. My AvantGrand N2's action is more on the heavy then on the light side of the spectrum. Other AvantGrand users confirmed this. The Kawai Novus NV10 (S) seems to feel lighter then the AvantGrands. But again, this is all very subjective.


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