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kre:

You say your Venta Lw45 "screams at full power" and "there is no way anyone can be in the same room, let alone play the piano."

I have the same size Venta but without the auto thermostat function.

My Venta is located at the opposite end of our 33 foot long livingroom.

When I'm at my piano on the opposite side of the livingroom, I can barely hear the Venta when it is running on power setting "1" and "2".

When set to "3", the highest power/fastest fan setting", it is a bit louder.

I believe I am very sensitive to sound levels.

There's no way I'd describe the level of sound coming from my Venta as a "scream" even when it's running on the highest power setting of "3".

I'm wondering if you may have a defective unit? I hope not!

Jeanne W

P.S. My house is over 100 years old and has no insulation within its walls. The windows are original with storm windows, mostly exterior. So it breathes - a lot. In the winter I'm able to keep the humidity between 36-39% except for brief episodes of severe cold. The livingroom is 33x18 and we have doors open to our sunporch which is another 18 x 12. I believe this is sufficiently keeping keeping my piano happy and healthy.

P.P.S. I tried to measure the sound level using an old Radio Shack decibel meter. With the Venta set to the maximum "3" and the decibel meter set right up against the Venta, I got a reading of 72.5 decibels. The farther I step away from it, the quieter it becomes.


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Hi, Again. A bit more regarding the sound levels Venta puts out...

The Venta website states the decibel readings are 25/35/45 on settings 1/2/3.

https://www.venta-air.com/en_us/product/lw45-airwasher/

Those are very quiet levels of sound.

Those readings do not match the reading I got from my RadioShack sound meter - as I noted in my earlier post, I measured closer to 75 decibels when the Venta is set to its most powerful setting of 3.

Perhaps Venta has re-engineered the units in some way that enables them to be even quieter today than when I purchased mine?

Perhaps my sound meter reading is off?

Or ???

At any rate, the Venta doesn't sound overly loud to me.

But I think it's important to note that everyone's ears and sensibilities are not calibrated the same. It could be some people's ears pick up some certain pitch of the sound the Venta is making more than others.

I'd like to clarify what I wrote about in my earlier post about the Venta. I should have pointed out our livingroom is closed off from the other rooms on the first floor of our house by French doors that we keep closed during the winter when the Venta is running. This helps with humidity levels.

Jeanne W


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Originally Posted by Jeanne W
Hi, Again. A bit more regarding the sound levels Venta puts out...

The Venta website states the decibel readings are 25/35/45 on settings 1/2/3.

https://www.venta-air.com/en_us/product/lw45-airwasher/

Those are very quiet levels of sound.

Those readings do not match the reading I got from my RadioShack sound meter - as I noted in my earlier post, I measured closer to 75 decibels when the Venta is set to its most powerful setting of 3.

Perhaps Venta has re-engineered the units in some way that enables them to be even quieter today than when I purchased mine?

Perhaps my sound meter reading is off?

Or ???

At any rate, the Venta doesn't sound overly loud to me.

But I think it's important to note that everyone's ears and sensibilities are not calibrated the same. It could be some people's ears pick up some certain pitch of the sound the Venta is making more than others.

I'd like to clarify what I wrote about in my earlier post about the Venta. I should have pointed out our livingroom is closed off from the other rooms on the first floor of our house by French doors that we keep closed during the winter when the Venta is running. This helps with humidity levels.

Jeanne W

Venta at full power is so loud that I cannot be in same room, during nights it is of course fine as I can close the door. I do not need Venta brochure or sound pressure meter for this (75dB would be EXTREMELY loud in home enviroment).

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Originally Posted by kre
Originally Posted by Jeanne W
Hi, Again. A bit more regarding the sound levels Venta puts out...

The Venta website states the decibel readings are 25/35/45 on settings 1/2/3.

https://www.venta-air.com/en_us/product/lw45-airwasher/

Those are very quiet levels of sound.

Those readings do not match the reading I got from my RadioShack sound meter - as I noted in my earlier post, I measured closer to 75 decibels when the Venta is set to its most powerful setting of 3.

Perhaps Venta has re-engineered the units in some way that enables them to be even quieter today than when I purchased mine?

Perhaps my sound meter reading is off?

Or ???

At any rate, the Venta doesn't sound overly loud to me.

But I think it's important to note that everyone's ears and sensibilities are not calibrated the same. It could be some people's ears pick up some certain pitch of the sound the Venta is making more than others.

I'd like to clarify what I wrote about in my earlier post about the Venta. I should have pointed out our livingroom is closed off from the other rooms on the first floor of our house by French doors that we keep closed during the winter when the Venta is running. This helps with humidity levels.

Jeanne W

Venta at full power is so loud that I cannot be in same room, during nights it is of course fine as I can close the door. I do not need Venta brochure or sound pressure meter for this (75dB would be EXTREMELY loud in home enviroment).

Yes, but that 75dB is measured immediately adjacent to the Venta not at 1 metre so you are getting a grossly inflated reading. My Venta is certainly not as loud as that although it is sufficiently loud that I very rarely deploy it and instead rely on much more attactive and infinitely quieter potted plants in my piano room :-)

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Originally Posted by kre
Venta at full power is so loud that I cannot be in same room, during nights it is of course fine as I can close the door. I do not need Venta brochure or sound pressure meter for this (75dB would be EXTREMELY loud in home enviroment).

The problem with the indicated sound levels on the venta website is that it is not clear in what environment they were measured. Scientifically the best would be in an anechoic room. On the other hand in practice such values have little meaning, because in a room with sound reflections the values can increase a lot (and who lives in an anechoic room...?). By how much depends entirely on characteristic of the room, walls, carpets, furniture etc.

I have a dehumidifier (different brand, but was very silent according to the folder) and it is not bearable to sit within 3m close to it for longer durations. But my living room is quite echoic because of the hard floor. I can only switch it on at night or when nobody is in the room, or when I am practicing with headphones. Or just shorter durations.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne W
kre:

You say your Venta Lw45 "screams at full power" and "there is no way anyone can be in the same room, let alone play the piano."

I have the same size Venta but without the auto thermostat function.

My Venta is located at the opposite end of our 33 foot long livingroom.

When I'm at my piano on the opposite side of the livingroom, I can barely hear the Venta when it is running on power setting "1" and "2".

When set to "3", the highest power/fastest fan setting", it is a bit louder.

I believe I am very sensitive to sound levels.

There's no way I'd describe the level of sound coming from my Venta as a "scream" even when it's running on the highest power setting of "3".

I'm wondering if you may have a defective unit? I hope not!

Jeanne W

P.S. My house is over 100 years old and has no insulation within its walls. The windows are original with storm windows, mostly exterior. So it breathes - a lot. In the winter I'm able to keep the humidity between 36-39% except for brief episodes of severe cold. The livingroom is 33x18 and we have doors open to our sunporch which is another 18 x 12. I believe this is sufficiently keeping keeping my piano happy and healthy.

P.P.S. I tried to measure the sound level using an old Radio Shack decibel meter. With the Venta set to the maximum "3" and the decibel meter set right up against the Venta, I got a reading of 72.5 decibels. The farther I step away from it, the quieter it becomes.
I too live in a drafty old house. May I ask precisely how much your Venta raises the relative humidity when it is particularly cold and dry?


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RobAC:

I learned years ago that attempting to keep humidity between 40-49% resulted in condensation on our windows - not a good idea. I revised what I was attempting to do and now during the winter my goal is to keep humidity between 35-40%.

Last night we had temps in the teens so I turned up the Venta to "3", it's highest setting. The humidity stayed around 35% overnight.

Temps today rose higher. Temp right now is 29 degrees F - the humidity in the livingroom is now 37%.

So the Venta is able to keep the humidity hovering between 35% - 37% most of the time.

Most of the time when temps are higher, in the 40's I am running the Venta on the lower two settings.

During extended extreme cold snaps the humidity may drop lower than 35%. This is not something that occurs that often; does not cause me too much concern.

I believe the Venta raises the humidity as much as 10% when temps are in the teens and lower outside. But typically I am only attempting to raise it by 5%.

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

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Originally Posted by Jeanne W
RobAC:

I learned years ago that attempting to keep humidity between 40-49% resulted in condensation on our windows - not a good idea. I revised what I was attempting to do and now during the winter my goal is to keep humidity between 35-40%.

Last night we had temps in the teens so I turned up the Venta to "3", it's highest setting. The humidity stayed around 35% overnight.

Temps today rose higher. Temp right now is 29 degrees F - the humidity in the livingroom is now 37%.

So the Venta is able to keep the humidity hovering between 35% - 37% most of the time.

Most of the time when temps are higher, in the 40's I am running the Venta on the lower two settings.

During extended extreme cold snaps the humidity may drop lower than 35%. This is not something that occurs that often; does not cause me too much concern.

I believe the Venta raises the humidity as much as 10% when temps are in the teens and lower outside. But typically I am only attempting to raise it by 5%.

Jeanne W
Thank you -- very helpful info!


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Some numbers from HVAC world to remember:

+40° 45%
+30° 40%
+20° 35%
+10° 30%
0° 25%
-10° 20%
-20° 15%

That's the maximum indoor humidity for the given outdoor temperature (F). More and you will potentially have condensation, not only on windows, but worse inside your wall cavities and in under the roof space. Which, unsurprisingly, will result in a mold and rot.

Regarding humidifiers, I personally use this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744Y162X with RO filter. Works pretty well keeping constant humidity (~39% right now) independently on a dew point outside (down to 10F so far which means there is almost zero water outside) and it's connected to the water supply so no need to fill it. Very quiet, just a fan and some bubbling sound when it's working. I also use a separate humidity controller: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J1E5LWM (humidifier's humidistat works as a backup).

Now I don't want to participate in flame wars about DC, but here's my take on it. I have a couple humidity sensors across my living room and can trace how fast humidity dissipates when e.g. I open a porch door, or a window upstairs. The answer if you wonder is: very fast. I also see how much mist is emitted by my Horticat (which has a max performance of 10 gallons a day) to keep that 39%. Now you are telling me that DC with a quart (or how much?) of water can do something in this environment? Sure, if I cover my piano with a plastic cover down to the floor and never open it, then maybe. Otherwise moisture will dissipate faster than DC can possible supply it.

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Hi Victor,

The wood takes in and retains moisture faster than it releases it. Combined with the fabric undercover and keeping the lid closed when not using the piano, I was able to make a pretty big difference in tuning stability with a DC in an upper-Midwestern US office environment which was...for lack of a better descriptor, pretty lethal to pianos. As you note above, it was a challenge to humidify the indoor air sufficiently without causing condensation on windows and poorly insulated walls, so the DC was a necessary solution in that scenario - just not for every scenario.


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My old piano tuner told me to put a small bucket with water in the piano. So I did. This was more than 40 years ago. I now own a digital piano. I guess I don't need a bucket with water anymore.


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Originally Posted by Rowy van Hest
My old piano tuner told me to put a small bucket with water in the piano.

If moisture is going to be added to the air, there needs to be some action going on. A bucket of water, especially on that is deep and the surface of the water isn't very big, will not add much water/moisture to the air. I was using a plastic storage container (maybe 40x30 cm, and fairly shallow) with only enough water so that it was about 2. cm (1in) deep.

But even then, my tuner said it's not really likely to make much difference. Also it looked like we had an invisible pet.

So now, if I am eying the hygrometer and worried about it dipping, I put wet towels on a drying rack in the piano room. It's not very attractive, but that does add a bit of moisture to the air (and I've seen the hygrometer react, ever so slightly, as well)

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 12/20/21 07:24 PM.

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Why not humidifier? Even small cheap one will work much better than towels if you can afford keeping room humidity (by "afford" I mean outside temperature, see my post above). That's not a huge expense.

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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Originally Posted by Rowy van Hest
My old piano tuner told me to put a small bucket with water in the piano.

If moisture is going to be added to the air, there needs to be some action going on. A bucket of water, especially on that is deep and the surface of the water isn't very big, will not add much water/moisture to the air. I was using a plastic storage container (maybe 40x30 cm, and fairly shallow) with only enough water so that it was about 2. cm (1in) deep.

But even then, my tuner said it's not really likely to make much difference. Also it looked like we had an invisible pet.

So now, if I am eying the hygrometer and worried about it dipping, I put wet towels on a drying rack in the piano room. It's not very attractive, but that does add a bit of moisture to the air (and I've seen the hygrometer react, ever so slightly, as well)

You'd need a lot of wet towels in a dry season! And the degree of control is not very exact. I have to say that I never had much success with this approach.

Last edited by David-G; 12/20/21 07:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Combined with the fabric undercover and keeping the lid closed when not using the piano, I was able to make a pretty big difference in tuning stability with a DC in an upper-Midwestern US

I agree, in this scenario DC is certainly better than nothing. As I understand it DC is good in a "storage" mode, i.e. when piano is not played actively and you can cover it completely. IMO it's not very practical when piano is played few hours a day (not consecutive), apart from inconvenience it will create wet/dry cycles. In this case I'd better keep piano constantly at 35% (if I can) instead of 25% - 45% changes due to opening/closing. I guess it's possible to buy a small humidifier with humidistat and put it under piano cover at a fraction of DC cost, without drilling and with possibly the same result. Of course there is a risk of over-humidifying and creating big swings if humidifier is too powerful, so it's a gamble.

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Obviously, you all can do whatever moves you with regard to attempts at stabilisation of the actual moisture content of the soundboard/bridge (most critical) and other wood-based components of your piano. Here is my attempt:

I live in house with a fully functioning HVAC. It can humidify and dehumidify at any time and temperature during the year. I adjust the computer controlled humidity offsets over the course of the year so that the controller thinks the outside air temperature (as far as humidity is concerned) is constant. This causes it to adjust the humidity in the house to a constant 50% (easiest to achieve here in southern Ontario). I bought a new M&H BB in 2012 and had a full DC installed as part of the purchase price. It runs 24 hours a day all year, constantly heating and humidifying. I have several hygrometers, two outside and one inside the piano (all tested using NaCl supersaturated solution for accuracy). The DC is set to maintain 50% RH. The HVAC does not run for several months in the spring and in the fall (our choice). The indoor RH increases to about 60% (according to my tuning book), but the piano sees mostly 50%. The DC seems to hold the piano very well between about 42% in the hottest parts of summer and coldest parts of winter, and about 50% the rest of the year.

The result of all this is that I only need to adjust the string NSL (non speaking length) tension when tuning (at least once a month). I don't have to move pins and I don't have beating unisons.

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This likely won't add anything that's not already been said, but I believe the Dampp-Chaser regulates moisture content in the wood, so whether or not it does much to raise or lower RH beyond the soundboard is irrelevant. I have direct evidence that it works in my case (along with a wool string cover). The RH in my drafty old Victorian can shift by as much as 30% over a couple of days, and the piano stays in tune, both in overall pitch and with itself. I think that'd be pretty much impossible without a DC.

I've added a small room humidifier to try to add a little humidity when the hydrogometer shows the RH is below 35%, and that seems to be helping a little.


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Originally Posted by Victor66
Why not humidifier? Even small cheap one will work much better than towels if you can afford keeping room humidity

Originally Posted by David-G
You'd need a lot of wet towels in a dry season! And the degree of control is not very exact. I have to say that I never had much success with this approach.

First, in my area, there are not many times when I need to worry about the humidity going too low. And I did enough research on humidifiers to know that it's not a solution I want to deal with.

Second, I mentioned the towel method as an alternative to the bucket-of-water method, not as an alternative to a humidifier. A body of water is much more static, and therefore very much less likely to actually add moisture to the air, than a wet towel. A wet towel is basically the same idea as a wick humidifier, just temporary (and again, not very attractive)

But these are options for somewhere that isn't very cold, where the indoor heat is not running full blast for weeks on end.

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 12/21/21 10:32 AM.

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Originally Posted by prout
Obviously, you all can do whatever moves you with regard to attempts at stabilisation of the actual moisture content of the soundboard/bridge (most critical) and other wood-based components of your piano. Here is my attempt:

I live in house with a fully functioning HVAC. It can humidify and dehumidify at any time and temperature during the year. I adjust the computer controlled humidity offsets over the course of the year so that the controller thinks the outside air temperature (as far as humidity is concerned) is constant. This causes it to adjust the humidity in the house to a constant 50% (easiest to achieve here in southern Ontario). I bought a new M&H BB in 2012 and had a full DC installed as part of the purchase price. It runs 24 hours a day all year, constantly heating and humidifying. I have several hygrometers, two outside and one inside the piano (all tested using NaCl supersaturated solution for accuracy). The DC is set to maintain 50% RH. The HVAC does not run for several months in the spring and in the fall (our choice). The indoor RH increases to about 60% (according to my tuning book), but the piano sees mostly 50%. The DC seems to hold the piano very well between about 42% in the hottest parts of summer and coldest parts of winter, and about 50% the rest of the year.

The result of all this is that I only need to adjust the string NSL (non speaking length) tension when tuning (at least once a month). I don't have to move pins and I don't have beating unisons.

I'm intrigued, how do you adjust the NSL tension without moving the pins?

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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Originally Posted by Rowy van Hest
My old piano tuner told me to put a small bucket with water in the piano.

If moisture is going to be added to the air, there needs to be some action going on. A bucket of water, especially on that is deep and the surface of the water isn't very big, will not add much water/moisture to the air. I was using a plastic storage container (maybe 40x30 cm, and fairly shallow) with only enough water so that it was about 2. cm (1in) deep.

But even then, my tuner said it's not really likely to make much difference. Also it looked like we had an invisible pet.

So now, if I am eying the hygrometer and worried about it dipping, I put wet towels on a drying rack in the piano room. It's not very attractive, but that does add a bit of moisture to the air (and I've seen the hygrometer react, ever so slightly, as well)

If you are looking for a passive humidification method then plants in the room and one (or perhaps two for a grand ) 'hydroceel' tubes are rather excellent and unobtrusive aids.

And for really big changes I think if you had your several towels (or even better some greenhouse capillary matting) on their drying rack with ends dangling into a water tub and then blow one of those big 18" fans across it you'd have in effect a giant version of a DC with an enormously powerful effect even if it was an eyesore and loud enough to make the room uninhabitable. Add in a humidstat to stop it turning the room into a swimming pool and you'd be good to run your piano in a desert I'd think :-)

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