Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Thoughts on the 4th Finger and It's Overuse

So I've been looking through my copy of the Henle Beethoven sonatas Volume II and I'm shocked by how frequently fingering suggestions offer using the 4 rather than literally any of the other, stronger, fingers. I feel like this is a problem not only with this book but many editions. Personally I feel really strong that the 4 should be avoided whenever possible, unless it's absolutely necessary. Obviously not to avoid it in favour of a more uncomfortable and tense fingering, rather to come up with less conventional fingerings that are still comfortable and keep the hand relaxed. What are your thoughts about using the 4th finger? I've gone for years using it just as frequently as the others but since I've started avoiding it I've felt my runs feel much more relaxed and controlled, as well as a better handle of the piece in general. Are the old Henle sonata fingerings any good (the edition from the 70s) or are they generally thought of as poor suggestions?

I know the recent Murray Perahia fingerings are well respected though, but Henle hasn't yet released all the sonatas under that edition.

I follow the advice of Beethoven's great predecessor, Mozart, who said to Joseph II, when asked why he used so many 4th fingers:"I use my 4th finger as often as I need to: no more, and certainly no less."

BTW, are you sure that those fingerings are editorial? Beethoven was fond of his fourth fingers because he wore his rings on them, so he wrote fingerings for them.

Yes I'm 90% sure because it seems that Beethoven's original fingerings seem to be italicized in this edition. I didn't realize that anecdote about Beethoven though, that's a pretty funny reason to use the 4 if you ask me haha.

After working with a Taubman teacher, I don't really feel the 4th finger as weaker because each playing finger is supported by movement of the whole hand and arm. I avoid 1-4 octaves, though--not because of weakness of the finger but because they tend to create a misalignment at the wrist.

Before that training I think I would have felt 5 as weakest, rather than 4.

I think you shoukd give some examples of cases where you consider it is unproperly used. Most of the time i use Schnabel fingering, but when it is not convenient, i change them.

Though I haven't worked with a Taubman teacher I like a lot of the ideas I've seen about it online. The main reason I see the fourth as the weakest is that it is very clearly closely tied with the third finger (I don't know how biologically but you can see it when you try to lift your fourth finger on its own) and it also seems very prone to collapsing (that first joint, again I'm not trained in this terminology), thus I choose not to use it.

I will mention that I definitely think the entire body takes part in creating a sound at the piano, and it's important to keep that in mind more than anything, but I also like to avoid the finger that I can't control as well.

In this particular instance I'm thinking of sections like mm. 75-77 (RH) in Op. 31 No. 2 or the left hand counterpoint following. There are also plenty of suggestions using the 4 as a finger in a tremolo in this movement as well as parts of the Waldstein. I find these instances of using the fourth finger as a waste of energy and a weird suggestion considering how many other options there are for 2 note tremolos or quick runs.

I wonder if the use of the fourth finger or avoiding it is an individual situation for the OP. Many use the fourth finger in passages and seem not to be concerned about its function or its relative weakness. Personally, I wouldn't abandon its use in place of a search for more unconventional fingering.

Did not Chopin say that the fourth finger was the "most expressive" of the fingers?

Regards,

Which finger would you use in place of 4?

I think these things are obviously subjective and there isn't a true "right" way to play the piano. I don't think I'm the only person who does this, I've met plenty of people who have a similar avoidance of the fourth finger for the reasons I mentioned.

I don't buy what great pianists of the past have said or may have believed, because we've come a long way since then. For instance, piano doesn't require of "strengthening" the fingers, as the muscles are so small there's no real need to exercise them and you don't gain much from it, but for a long time it was believed that you need to train your fingers and strengthen them. Another idea is even technical exercises, which great teachers and pianists of the past never really questioned, but few pianists really do as many Hanon or Czerny exercises as used to be common.

Regardless, the Chopin anecdote is still interesting because the fingers do each have their own qualities. Even if it is true that the fourth finger is the most expressive, I don't really see how that justifies using it for a 2 note tremolo whose main purpose is to be controlled and build momentum.

Bruce, I suspect your are right about it being an individual situation for the OP. I often prefer using my 4th finger instead of the 3rd because I have smallish hands and 1-4 sometimes gives me a more balanced reach. I will often use 4 instead of 5 because I consider it to be one of my strongest fingers, much stronger than my pinkie and I have short pinkies. I don't know how expressive my 4th finger is, but I have to admit am extremely fond of it.

I am extremely fond of all my fingers

I am mostly just trying to see if anyone else sees what I'm trying to say about these specific types of passages. I think there are reasons for using each finger, and I just generally think pianists neglect really thinking through fingering. I'm not trying to force my views on anyone but I do think there should be a stronger reason for selecting a fingering other than it simply being the one that is the most obvious choice. All it takes is changing one fingering for an entire passage to be "magically" fixed, so I think it's important to think about these things.

Either way, hands are all different and they require different fingerings for different situations, I'm just presenting what works for myself and I was curious to see what everybody else experiences. I may have been a little too bold in my proclamations with the title and language in my post, haha.

The fourth finger isn't weak. It's your ability to orient yourself around the 4th finger and position your self behind it so that it has leverage to work.

Morever, it actually isn't just a 4th finger problem.

It's also a problem of not being able to release from the other fingers as well so that you can be in a state where you can position the 4th finger.

The fingers have their own qualities in so much as that the morphology of the hand has different leverages in different planes of motion. Practice involves negotiating the adjustments needed to be made to adjust for these leverages and different planes of motions so that you can make gradations in playing that make everything "feel equal".

In practice, you have to play "unequally" to feel and sound "equal" because of those adjustments.

Actually, in common with all classical pianists I know, I choose my fingerings with all due care & attention.

Which also happens to be the most obvious choice - for me. I don't really care what other pianists use.

That's understandable, like I said it's different for everyone. Are you not really interested in the suggested fingering in the score or what other pianists use in order to use it yourself?

When I'm sight-reading, I use what's printed in the score, which usually works OK for a read-through.

But if I'm going to learn it properly, I'd go over everything with a fine-tooth comb, and likely change quite a few fingerings to suit me. No, I don't care what other pianists use in the least.

My last teacher, a concert pianist, only suggests different fingerings to me if he sees I'm having difficulties with what I'm using, or if he thinks something else might work better for me. That was decades ago, and I'm much more experienced now.......

This is fair. I still like getting others input but I also don't have decades of experience, so who knows. My teacher doesn't suggested fingerings frequently, though as you said, if I'm clearly struggling then she might.

I strongly disagree with this statement. It might be true of beginners but profession pianists and advanced amateurs must select careful and consistent fingering to be able to play a piece beautifully, without mistakes or hesitations.
Exactly.

Agreed. Because of my smallish hands, I almost always have to make careful and deliberate fingering changes. The fingering I select is based on ease of playing and, most importantly, phrasing and expression. I commonly switch notes between my hands or completely revise the fingering suggested by the publisher. I view the printed fingering as suggestions and if they don't work for me, I start from scratch. I do have a lot of experience doing this, but like bennevis, my current teacher is a concert pianist who will make suggestions if I am having difficulty. I am sometimes surprised at the ease of his suggestions and he is sometimes surprised at my fingering solutions. They may not work for his large hands but work smoothly with mine.

I think I may have misspoke. I definitely think to play at even a late intermediate level you need to have a good understanding of fingering, I sometimes forget how different the crowd is on this forum rather than some other places on the internet. Most pianists are between a beginner and intermediate level, but the people who would be on a piano forum in 2021 are most likely quite passionate and advanced pianists.

I agree, the most important aspect is probably phrasing and expression. I am still only scratching the surface of advanced repertoire but I first realized this a while back when I was playing Beethoven's Op. 14 No. 2. There were many 2 note slurs that I was tempted to just strike the key twice with the same finger, but I considered Peraiah's fingering with switching fingers after the slurs, which builds phrasing in with the fingering. It's a necessity for certain passages in the Pathetique third movement and countless other pieces in the classical period.

Anyway, it's really interesting to hear others' views on fingering and its role in piano performance.

At some point just deciding the finger or just vaguely sensing the finger chosen isn't enough if you want to progress from limitations.

The parameters you want your brain to pay attention to should start to become more and more precise.

All of the fingers have different leverages, but how you manage those leverages requires different timings, locational aiming, different heights to drop from, etc...

If I gave you a pen you should be able to mark where on the key you will articulate (distance from the fall board), what height you are dropping from, and even mark where on your finger (as a pin point) you are going to land and balance on for consistent results. The fingers have a concavity that when sensed and used, allow you to make use of proper aiming and timing of instability/stability to shift from finger to finger or move weight forward or backwards on a key. But this only works in so far as you can sense and make use of those pin points for references to move from and aim towards.