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ErnieAd Offline OP
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I'm wondering if comparisons have been made of the digital renderings of included samplings (such as the Yamaha digital pianos with say the sampling of the Yamaha CFX) with the same piano in a Virtual Studio Technology (VST) plugin. Could it be possible to connect a lower cost keyboard to a computer with VST software (i.e. the Vienna Sympohonic Library (VSL)) and get as good or better resulting sound than with the manufactures such as the Yamaha Clavinova.

Thanks for any input or advise concerning this!

Ernie Adsett


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I think most people here would say that the average paid VST is better than the average digital piano sound, and best VSTs are usually better than the built in sounds in the best digital pianos. So yes, it is entirely possible to hook up a cheap digital piano and get sound competitive or better than the best digital pianos.

Most of the cost of the expensive digital pianos goes into the hardware, it seems, rather than the sound.

I also particularly dislike the sound of Yamaha digitals, so the clavinovas aren't even in the running imo. Here's a good comparison of the Yamaha CLP-765 vs the Garritan CFX, one of the best regarded VSTs:



The nice thing about the VST route too is that you simply have more options.

Last edited by napilopez; 12/30/21 01:03 AM.
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except that here the Garritan has much more reverb, the sort of things that can improve immersion a LOT. That's maybe not the best example (and after all 785 is a relatively high-end DP so you'd expect the sound to be very good)

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Originally Posted by Nigo
except that here the Garritan has much more reverb, the sort of things that can improve immersion a LOT. That's maybe not the best example (and after all 785 is a relatively high-end DP so you'd expect the sound to be very good)

yeah, but the reverb in the garritan is the sound of the room (the Abbey Road studio) and an integral part of the plug-in. it can be turned down, and I'm guessing you can up the reverb on the clp765, but the room sound is part of what you're paying for with the garritan

EDIT: there is an additional reverb effect in the garritan too

Last edited by jackopiano; 12/30/21 06:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nigo
except that here the Garritan has much more reverb, the sort of things that can improve immersion a LOT. That's maybe not the best example (and after all 785 is a relatively high-end DP so you'd expect the sound to be very good)

True, but nonetheless, I think it fits the criteria of 'as good or better' sound compared to the built in sound.

In any case, I am personally quite familiar with the sound engine in the 785, and I do quite clearly find the Garritan to be better than Yamaha's own digitals. I also agree with the above that the Abbey Road sound is integral to why that VST sounds so good

And the Garritan isn't even one of my top favorite VSTs. At the end of the day, you just have much more headroom for performance on a VST. Manufacturers of course have the advantage in calibrating the touch curve for the keyboard, but usually you can get equivalent performance from a VST.

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The Garriton was heaps better; it conveyed character. the Yamaha conveyed a hospital clinic. I'm sure my DGX sounded better than that . . .


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Originally Posted by ErnieAd
...
Could it be possible to connect a lower cost keyboard to a computer with VST software (i.e. the Vienna Sympohonic Library (VSL)) and get as good or better resulting sound than with the manufactures such as the Yamaha Clavinova
...
Ernie Adsett


Soundwise yes, but experience-wise a solid no. If it was possible, Yamaha was only selling cheap pianos.


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New Piano samples(Nashville C3, U1, U1 Felt and Hamburg) for CP/YC line are miles ahead in terms of realism.
Hope that they come to CLP line in the future.

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I can't remember the last time I used my DP's onboard sounds. I'm so much in the habit of hooking up Addictive Keys, Hans Zimmer piano or another good one is " The Gentleman " by Native Instruments.

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Originally Posted by peterws
The Garriton was heaps better; it conveyed character. the Yamaha conveyed a hospital clinic. I'm sure my DGX sounded better than that . . .
Hahahah

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IMHO you need a good controller to get good results with any VST. Using an average or cheap keyboard as a controller of a good VST, as VSL ones, will give you a lots worse experience.

I have settled with a Kawai VPC1 and I am very happy with it along a plethora of VSTs which I select depending on the mood and the piece I want to play.

YMMV

Jose


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...plus some other DPs, synths, controllers and VSTs

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Originally Posted by EB5AGV
IMHO you need a good controller to get good results with any VST. Using an average or cheap keyboard as a controller of a good VST, as VSL ones, will give you a lots worse experience.
So it’s up to the controller. Are vst’s also able to handle the input of the sensors at the hammers besides the input of the sensors at the keys? Or reveals this question that I don’t have a clue?

I’m sorry if this question is asked before. I trust that I’m save with my future nu1x as a controller.


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Yes... You don't have a clue 😊 welcome to my club... 😊

The only thing that the controllers send out are midi messages. The number and type of sensors are the internal mechanisms that the controller uses to make the midi messages more accurate and reliable. If it has 1 sensor or 46 sensors, it is irrelevant to the player, IF it functions well (and, as expected, equipments with more sensors are better designed and enginneered and therefore should function better).

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Good answer for someone without a clue. So it matters. I guess I’m playing like a farmer, so that sixth layer of nuance doesn’t matter to me. No offense to the farmers by the way, they do a nice job against the climate ;-)

I do agree with Napilopez by the way. I did like the sampling of the 600 series better than the sampling of the 700 series. Not that it’s good in simulating an acoustic box, but it is nice on its own. That was one reason that I was skipping clp735-785 and jumped directly from the ydp164/144 to the nux1.

Disclaimer. I was robbed one day by a hit on both my ears at the same time. Which took my consciousness away. Giving a way to rob me in peace. After that I had a long time some noice in my left ear. And no clue of stereo too. So my appreciation of sound is very subjective.


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Originally Posted by deafital
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
IMHO you need a good controller to get good results with any VST. Using an average or cheap keyboard as a controller of a good VST, as VSL ones, will give you a lots worse experience.
So it’s up to the controller. Are vst’s also able to handle the input of the sensors at the hammers besides the input of the sensors at the keys? Or reveals this question that I don’t have a clue?

I’m sorry if this question is asked before. I trust that I’m save with my future nu1x as a controller.

the point that's being made is ...

your experience of listening to piano depends on the sound output [1]

your experience of playing piano depends on the sound output, and the action

so the quality etc of the vst is fundamental - you have to find one that sounds good to you. but you also have to find a DP or other MIDI controller with an action that suits you in order to enjoy your experience of playing the vst

and then you have to get the two working together. the most obvious example of this is the extensive discussion about setting velocity curves for various DP+vst combinations, which you'll find it you read around.

another example is the issue of latency (the delay between when you play the keys, and when you hear the sound). this occurs with acoustic and digital pianos too, but is not noticeable because of the speed of sound and how close you sit to the instrument. triggering sounds on a computer with your DP adds latency which can make the delay noticeable, but with decent great it's generally not a problem





[1] actually, your experience of listening to piano also depends on both the sound output and the action, because both affect the performance of the player, but i simplified this above to make the point

Last edited by jackopiano; 01/01/22 04:26 PM.
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Thank you Jackopiano, but ‘decent great’: I have to find out what that is ;-)


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*decent gear

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Thanks for all your input, everyone.

This is a great help!!


ErnieAd Pianist & Engineer
ernie@adsett.ca

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