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...With one question.

Again, only action conscious classical pianists.

What's the best I can get for under 3.000€?

Don't say CASIO GP-310 before you read my opinion in my last thread. If you can't he bothered: I found it underwhelming.

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I'm affraid you already got your answer in the other thread.

I don't believe there is anything above a vpc-1/mp11se/ca99/gp-310 etc, action wise.

So, for that money, the only answer is a used hybrid or silent piano.

- Yamaha nu1(x)
- Yamaha n1(x)
- Yamaha n2
- Yamaha n3(x)
- Kawai nv5(s)
- Kawai nv10(s)

All real actions, maybe you can find one of the hybrid uprights at that price.

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Originally Posted by U3piano
I'm affraid you already got your answer in the other thread.

I don't believe there is anything above a vpc-1/mp11se/ca99/gp-310 etc, action wise.

So, for that money, the only answer is a used hybrid or silent piano.

- Yamaha nu1(x)
- Yamaha n1(x)
- Yamaha n2
- Yamaha n3(x)
- Kawai nv5(s)
- Kawai nv10(s)

All real actions, maybe you can find one of the hybrid uprights at that price.

I used to think the same, only 6 hours ago. The difference between the VPC1 and the Roland 704 is already noticeable.

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I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.

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Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.
That's useful. Have you tried the newer Celvianos and the Roland Hp 700s?

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Originally Posted by Usheraname
Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.
That's useful. Have you tried the newer Celvianos and the Roland Hp 700s?

I've tried everything...

Have owned a CLP 785... It has an uncomfortable overly-heavy resistance towards the end of the key depression. The action does not reflect a concert piano action at all. Tried the current Roland LX series and their version of a hybrid concert action, it's actually pretty good, and so is the casio GP310/510, but to me i prefer GF3 in the kawai. It's subjective, but I'd say those are the top 3 actions before you get onto the grand/upright hybrids. My preference is still towards GF3 though over any hybrid apart from NV10/S like i said.

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I completely concur with mwf's views on the CA79/99, above.

If you usually play with headphones, the CA79 would be perfectly fine. The CA99's soundboard does add another dimension to the sound over speakers, but is well over your budget.

You may want to read my three-part piano upgrade saga from a couple of years ago, here:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2845043
To summarize, if I had to buy a digital, it would be the CA99. However, I ended up with an acoustic grand and am happy with that!

All the best,
Lotus
___________________________________________
Last piece learned: Mozart / Adagio in B minor, K. 540
Working on: Mozart / Sonata in D, K. 284, "Durnitz"
Pianos: Kawai GM-10 grand, Yamaha DGX-660 digital

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Yes the CA79 is an amazing deal, they are approx £2300 In UK... And for that you get a wonderful action and set of samples, and the speaker system is also great imo, i only chose CA99 because i simply could afford to, otherwise honestly I'd be perfectly happy with CA79 as it shares the exact same beautiful action.

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Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.

What put the 99 above the upright hybrids? I’m thinking about the NU1X, but it’s more $

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Originally Posted by Curt-S
Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.

What put the 99 above the upright hybrids? I’m thinking about the NU1X, but it’s more $

I'd always worry about repetition rate and speed overall on an upright action, they just don't interest me, at least i know what i can do on a good grand type action. I can't see any reason to lean towards an upright hybrid action, they have no benefits other than feeling more like an acoustic upright... Why you'd want that is beyond me.

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Gotcha. Just thought the upright acoustic would have more nuance from the extra parts vs a ca99 or 785. I’ll probably never play fast enough to worry about repetition rate.

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A corollary to my original post for Usheraname, having read some of his other threads:

As a university piano student, you probably play at a level above 90% of the posters on this forum, including me. So take our advice for what it's worth.

You will understand that opinions about actions are highly subjective. In my piano purchase saga, I found that my opinions of the same digital actions varied over the course of six months. And in the end, the dynamic control offered by even entry-level acoustic grands blew all the digitals away.

I found that the higher end of Kawai's CA series represented the absolute limit of what I would spend on a digital. The limitations of sound through digital speakers compared to acoustic grands became impossible to accept when I considered spending more than that.

This is not to say that all digital pianos are inappropriate for experienced players. As a student, you value silent practice and portability, two attributes that have little meaning for me, living in a detached house with no close neighbors.

I would choose a CA79 in your place, but that doesn't mean it's right for you! Trust your own ability to make a decision; you have the experience to do so.

Happy New Year!
Lotus
__________________________________
Having fun with: Tema con variazioni from
Mozart: Sonata in D, K. 284, "Durnitz" on
Pianos: Kawai GM-10 grand, Yamaha DGX-660 digital

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Another thing to keep in mind: the sound a DP produces and how it reaches the ears will have a profound affect on perception of key action and ultimately timbre.

Setting the volume too low will make the action feel heavy, so you’ll subconsciously play more forcefully, making the sound brighter / harsher as well.


Geoff
CASIO GP-510 Digital | C. Bechstein B Grand
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” A. Einstein
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Originally Posted by BravoRomeo
Another thing to keep in mind: the sound a DP produces and how it reaches the ears will have a profound affect on perception of key action and ultimately timbre.

Setting the volume too low will make the action feel heavy, so you’ll subconsciously play more forcefully, making the sound brighter / harsher as well.

I wondered about this, not wanting to chime in as an early intermediate pianist, but audio is one of my specialties and I think it's easy to underestimate the how much the sound affects our perception of the action.

For example, I remember usheraname said the VPC1 felt too light in another thread, but the VPC1 actually appears to have one of the heavier actions out there. There is a chart with the weightings of many keyboard actions here:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbt...piano-key-action-and-static-touchweights

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Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by Usheraname
Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.
That's useful. Have you tried the newer Celvianos and the Roland Hp 700s?

I've tried everything...

Have owned a CLP 785... It has an uncomfortable overly-heavy resistance towards the end of the key depression. The action does not reflect a concert piano action at all. Tried the current Roland LX series and their version of a hybrid concert action, it's actually pretty good, and so is the casio GP310/510, but to me i prefer GF3 in the kawai. It's subjective, but I'd say those are the top 3 actions before you get onto the grand/upright hybrids. My preference is still towards GF3 though over any hybrid apart from NV10/S like i said.
Originally Posted by napilopez
Originally Posted by BravoRomeo
Another thing to keep in mind: the sound a DP produces and how it reaches the ears will have a profound affect on perception of key action and ultimately timbre.

Setting the volume too low will make the action feel heavy, so you’ll subconsciously play more forcefully, making the sound brighter / harsher as well.

I wondered about this, not wanting to chime in as an early intermediate pianist, but audio is one of my specialties and I think it's easy to underestimate the how much the sound affects our perception of the action.

For example, I remember usheraname said the VPC1 felt too light in another thread, but the VPC1 actually appears to have one of the heavier actions out there. There is a chart with the weightings of many keyboard actions here:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbt...piano-key-action-and-static-touchweights
Originally Posted by BravoRomeo
Another thing to keep in mind: the sound a DP produces and how it reaches the ears will have a profound affect on perception of key action and ultimately timbre.

Setting the volume too low will make the action feel heavy, so you’ll subconsciously play more forcefully, making the sound brighter / harsher as well.
Originally Posted by Lotus1
A corollary to my original post for Usheraname, having read some of his other threads:

As a university piano student, you probably play at a level above 90% of the posters on this forum, including me. So take our advice for what it's worth.

You will understand that opinions about actions are highly subjective. In my piano purchase saga, I found that my opinions of the same digital actions varied over the course of six months. And in the end, the dynamic control offered by even entry-level acoustic grands blew all the digitals away.

I found that the higher end of Kawai's CA series represented the absolute limit of what I would spend on a digital. The limitations of sound through digital speakers compared to acoustic grands became impossible to accept when I considered spending more than that.

This is not to say that all digital pianos are inappropriate for experienced players. As a student, you value silent practice and portability, two attributes that have little meaning for me, living in a detached house with no close neighbors.

I would choose a CA79 in your place, but that doesn't mean it's right for you! Trust your own ability to make a decision; you have the experience to do so.

Happy New Year!
Lotus
__________________________________
Having fun with: Tema con variazioni from
Mozart: Sonata in D, K. 284, "Durnitz" on
Pianos: Kawai GM-10 grand, Yamaha DGX-660 digital
Originally Posted by Curt-S
Gotcha. Just thought the upright acoustic would have more nuance from the extra parts vs a ca99 or 785. I’ll probably never play fast enough to worry about repetition rate.
Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by Curt-S
Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.

What put the 99 above the upright hybrids? I’m thinking about the NU1X, but it’s more $

I'd always worry about repetition rate and speed overall on an upright action, they just don't interest me, at least i know what i can do on a good grand type action. I can't see any reason to lean towards an upright hybrid action, they have no benefits other than feeling more like an acoustic upright... Why you'd want that is beyond me.
Originally Posted by Curt-S
Originally Posted by mwf
I honestly think the GF3 action found in CA79/99 is the best action UNTIL you get to NV10/S. There's nothing else I'd consider, i have owned N1X also, but the action is not as fast/capable as the GF3. I've gone through countless different actions over the years and I've never felt more comfortable and content than I do on my CA99... Unless it's an NV10/S lol, but I'm not shelling out thousands more for that, especially as i dont rate the speaker system on it whatsoever, its quite awful in fact.

What put the 99 above the upright hybrids? I’m thinking about the NU1X, but it’s more $
Originally Posted by mwf
Yes the CA79 is an amazing deal, they are approx £2300 In UK... And for that you get a wonderful action and set of samples, and the speaker system is also great imo, i only chose CA99 because i simply could afford to, otherwise honestly I'd be perfectly happy with CA79 as it shares the exact same beautiful action.
Originally Posted by Lotus1
I completely concur with mwf's views on the CA79/99, above.

If you usually play with headphones, the CA79 would be perfectly fine. The CA99's soundboard does add another dimension to the sound over speakers, but is well over your budget.

You may want to read my three-part piano upgrade saga from a couple of years ago, here:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2845043
To summarize, if I had to buy a digital, it would be the CA99. However, I ended up with an acoustic grand and am happy with that!

All the best,
Lotus
___________________________________________
Last piece learned: Mozart / Adagio in B minor, K. 540
Working on: Mozart / Sonata in D, K. 284, "Durnitz"
Pianos: Kawai GM-10 grand, Yamaha DGX-660 digital
It is very kind of you all to have taken your time ti answer to my thread in New Year. Touching, I must say.

Indeed, I believe the CA79 might be the answer to the question. I'll be testing it as soon as the day after tomorrow, and will let you know.

Happy New Year

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I don't understand. What would make the gf3 action in the ca79/99 much better than the rm3-ii or gf1 in the vpc1/mp11se?

It's basically the same with some very minor tweaks, isn't it? (I haven't played gf3, but this seems to be the case.)

Happy new year everyone!

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Not comparing gf1 and gf3 but I think it still applies.



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Originally Posted by Purdy
Not comparing gf1 and gf3 but I think it still applies.

Wait are you friggin' kidding me

A change in lenght of 1/8 of an inch, and a change in a small piece, and that's the difference?

Alright I'm going to test it I guess.

Last edited by Usheraname; 01/01/22 05:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by mwf
I'd always worry about repetition rate and speed overall on an upright action, they just don't interest me, at least i know what i can do on a good grand type action. I can't see any reason to lean towards an upright hybrid action, they have no benefits other than feeling more like an acoustic upright... Why you'd want that is beyond me.

It’s good, nice you are making it personal.

With me it’s the opposite ;-) I think an upright is tougher, more straightforward. I find it best described in this video
‘it’s got a little bit more bite to it’ (5:45) and especially (5:50): ‘it does land itself’ (don’t know this use of the word land nor if I do write it the right way, but I understand) whereafter he loses himself in the boogie (6:00) ;-)


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What she fails to mention (as a good Kawai sales person) is the flaw that plagues GFII because of the infamous slip tapes the screw heads rests on and that have caused problems to several users. The mechanism on GFIII looks better and, hopefully, fixes the design flaw.

Originally Posted by Usheraname
Wait are you friggin' kidding me

A change in lenght of 1/8 of an inch, and a change in a small piece, and that's the difference?

Alright I'm going to test it I guess.

Last edited by EVC2017; 01/01/22 06:50 PM.

Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
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