2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
43 members (Burkhard, Animisha, AndyP, AndrewJCW, astrotoy, 13 invisible), 389 guests, and 228 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3182370 01/04/22 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,050
M
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,050
Well, perhaps.

I was trying some pianos today in a good shop and noticed that there was a real dissonance between F and a lower D-flat-- the first pitches of the Chopin Prelude #15. Real bone-rattling, fingers-on-chalkboard kinds of beats being thrown out of the thing.

I'd thought that maybe the piano was out of tune, but there were no other obvious discrepancies, and it was a Yamaha AvantGrand, in any case. So presumably, that is what the manufacturer wanted us to hear.

Has anyone else noticed this? And is it a correct fall-out from equal temperament? I never picked that up when I was a kid, and after I focused on violin there was no reason not to play that-- or any other interval-- in tune.

Is there a way of minimizing the clash? Something, perhaps, about Steinway-ish lack of clarity or some other gimmick that fudges the problem?

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,739
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,739
If you want to test whether it is out of tune, compare this Db-F with the adjacent major thirds, C-E and D-F#. They should beat approximately the same, C-E a little slower, D-F# a little faster.


Semipro Tech
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,359
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,359
Yes it may have been out of tune, as it was perhaps an equally tempered third, so it is 14 cents away from what a violinist or string player would play if they were listening to their intonation. It is an unavoidable by product of equal spacing of the semi-tones. This amount of dissonance is, by modern convention, accepted as the maximum dissonance that is acceptable. What many of us find unfortunate is that in equal temperament, every single third is this far out of tune, hence, every single third is at the limit of tolerance so that none are over it.

In practice, I find the vast majority of pianists I tune for prefer a graduated size of third that follows the historical pattern of widening tonic thirds in the keys as one progresses around the circle of fifths.
Regards,

Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,050
M
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,050
I should have compared that with other thirds, then (or 10ths, or 17ths). Or listened through headphones to see any differences between the Yamaha and Bosendorfer samples.
Odd that it hit me so hard, though, when it never did before. Perhaps the Yamaha series of overtones coming through the speakers is pure enough that it sets up some really nasty clashes, that would normally be disguised by the more familiar Steinway lower-midrange soup?
Anyone else with a well-engineered hybrid, or perfectly-tuned acoustic piano is welcome to share results.

Last edited by Maestro Lennie; 01/04/22 10:27 PM.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,739
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,739
Just so you understand what Ed Foote is saying, he says that particular interval should beat more than just about all other major thirds on the piano, because it is the third for the scale which is most remote from C major. But if Yamaha is using such a radical departure from equal temperament, they should tell you.

Check whether the octaves, fourths, and fifths of those particular notes beat excessively. That will tell you whether it is just one of those particular notes, or if it is the tuning.

There may be some self-diagnostic or reset if there is a problem.


Semipro Tech
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,359
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,359
Originally Posted by BDB
Just so you understand what Ed Foote is saying, he says that particular interval should beat more than just about all other major thirds on the piano, because it is the third for the scale which is most remote from C major. .

um, no. What I am saying is that the Db-F, just like every third in equal temperament, its nearly 14 cents wider, ("sharper" in string player's vernacular) than pure. I am assuming that the OP was listening to an equally tempered scale. Had the temperament been one of the conventional, irregular, circulating, tunings, that third would have been on the more expressive side of the options, but without specifying such, the normal assumption is that ET was in place .
Regards,

Last edited by Ed Foote; 01/05/22 10:35 AM.
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 602
D
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 602
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Well, perhaps.

I was trying some pianos today in a good shop and noticed that there was a real dissonance between F and a lower D-flat-- the first pitches of the Chopin Prelude #15. Real bone-rattling, fingers-on-chalkboard kinds of beats being thrown out of the thing.

I'd thought that maybe the piano was out of tune, but there were no other obvious discrepancies, and it was a Yamaha AvantGrand, in any case. So presumably, that is what the manufacturer wanted us to hear.

Has anyone else noticed this? And is it a correct fall-out from equal temperament? I never picked that up when I was a kid, and after I focused on violin there was no reason not to play that-- or any other interval-- in tune.

Is there a way of minimizing the clash? Something, perhaps, about Steinway-ish lack of clarity or some other gimmick that fudges the problem?

I just sold my AvantGrand NU1, so I cannot record this test for you. However if you go to this site digital forum (or one of plenty other digital piano forum and clack out there on the internet) you will find no shortage of people with that instrument and I am sure a few will record that interval for you. That is very easy to do on an AvantGrand, even with all the temperaments available to the instrument. Then we can talk about some specifics recordings, rather than just speculations about what you might or might not have heard.

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Well, perhaps.

I was trying some pianos today in a good shop and noticed that there was a real dissonance between F and a lower D-flat-- the first pitches of the Chopin Prelude #15. Real bone-rattling, fingers-on-chalkboard kinds of beats being thrown out of the thing.

I'd thought that maybe the piano was out of tune, but there were no other obvious discrepancies, and it was a Yamaha AvantGrand, in any case. So presumably, that is what the manufacturer wanted us to hear.

Has anyone else noticed this? And is it a correct fall-out from equal temperament? I never picked that up when I was a kid, and after I focused on violin there was no reason not to play that-- or any other interval-- in tune.

Is there a way of minimizing the clash? Something, perhaps, about Steinway-ish lack of clarity or some other gimmick that fudges the problem?
Please don't judge equal temperament by any electronic keyboard. There isn't one on the market that sounds a decently tuned ET. They all have tunings which have been "adjusted" to sound more "interesting".
No real tuner would dare leave a piano tuned as these electronic ones are.


Nick, ageing piano technician
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Well, perhaps.

I was trying some pianos today in a good shop and noticed that there was a real dissonance between F and a lower D-flat-- the first pitches of the Chopin Prelude #15. Real bone-rattling, fingers-on-chalkboard kinds of beats being thrown out of the thing.

I'd thought that maybe the piano was out of tune, but there were no other obvious discrepancies, and it was a Yamaha AvantGrand, in any case. So presumably, that is what the manufacturer wanted us to hear.

Has anyone else noticed this? And is it a correct fall-out from equal temperament? I never picked that up when I was a kid, and after I focused on violin there was no reason not to play that-- or any other interval-- in tune.

Is there a way of minimizing the clash? Something, perhaps, about Steinway-ish lack of clarity or some other gimmick that fudges the problem?
Please don't judge equal temperament by any electronic keyboard. There isn't one on the market that sounds a decently tuned ET. They all have tunings which have been "adjusted" to sound more "interesting".
No real tuner would dare leave a piano tuned as these electronic ones are.

LOL - that's errant nonsense! There was an old thread a few years ago whereby people were trying to tune a perfectly progressive ET ... someone sampled an electronic instrument and it was pretty close. There are instruments which have multiple samples of each note - so the tuning is as good as the original instrument was tuned. On my ancient Yamaha P120 I can clearly demonstrate the piano voice's tuning is stretched (as expected) when playing along with a voice that has no inharmonicity (such as the organ or harpsichord). Then, of course, there's purely modeled instruments (like PianoTeq) where you can tune each note individually if you want.

I suspect the instrument the OP was playing had had a non-ET temperement set.

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Well, perhaps.

I was trying some pianos today in a good shop and noticed that there was a real dissonance between F and a lower D-flat-- the first pitches of the Chopin Prelude #15. Real bone-rattling, fingers-on-chalkboard kinds of beats being thrown out of the thing.

I'd thought that maybe the piano was out of tune, but there were no other obvious discrepancies, and it was a Yamaha AvantGrand, in any case. So presumably, that is what the manufacturer wanted us to hear.

Has anyone else noticed this? And is it a correct fall-out from equal temperament? I never picked that up when I was a kid, and after I focused on violin there was no reason not to play that-- or any other interval-- in tune.

Is there a way of minimizing the clash? Something, perhaps, about Steinway-ish lack of clarity or some other gimmick that fudges the problem?
Please don't judge equal temperament by any electronic keyboard. There isn't one on the market that sounds a decently tuned ET. They all have tunings which have been "adjusted" to sound more "interesting".
No real tuner would dare leave a piano tuned as these electronic ones are.

LOL - that's errant nonsense! There was an old thread a few years ago whereby people were trying to tune a perfectly progressive ET ... someone sampled an electronic instrument and it was pretty close. There are instruments which have multiple samples of each note - so the tuning is as good as the original instrument was tuned. On my ancient Yamaha P120 I can clearly demonstrate the piano voice's tuning is stretched (as expected) when playing along with a voice that has no inharmonicity (such as the organ or harpsichord). Then, of course, there's purely modeled instruments (like PianoTeq) where you can tune each note individually if you want.

I suspect the instrument the OP was playing had had a non-ET temperement set.

Here's my challenge to you smile
find an electronic keyboard with either or both of these...
A scale with thirds that progressively speed up nicely. Or
An octave within which the individual notes sound pure like a well tuned unison should. No meowing going on.
If you really think you have one please tell me the make and model, or video it with good sound and I will withdraw my claim!

Nick

Last edited by N W; 01/05/22 05:35 PM.

Nick, ageing piano technician
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Well, perhaps.

I was trying some pianos today in a good shop and noticed that there was a real dissonance between F and a lower D-flat-- the first pitches of the Chopin Prelude #15. Real bone-rattling, fingers-on-chalkboard kinds of beats being thrown out of the thing.

I'd thought that maybe the piano was out of tune, but there were no other obvious discrepancies, and it was a Yamaha AvantGrand, in any case. So presumably, that is what the manufacturer wanted us to hear.

Has anyone else noticed this? And is it a correct fall-out from equal temperament? I never picked that up when I was a kid, and after I focused on violin there was no reason not to play that-- or any other interval-- in tune.

Is there a way of minimizing the clash? Something, perhaps, about Steinway-ish lack of clarity or some other gimmick that fudges the problem?
Please don't judge equal temperament by any electronic keyboard. There isn't one on the market that sounds a decently tuned ET. They all have tunings which have been "adjusted" to sound more "interesting".
No real tuner would dare leave a piano tuned as these electronic ones are.

LOL - that's errant nonsense! There was an old thread a few years ago whereby people were trying to tune a perfectly progressive ET ... someone sampled an electronic instrument and it was pretty close. There are instruments which have multiple samples of each note - so the tuning is as good as the original instrument was tuned. On my ancient Yamaha P120 I can clearly demonstrate the piano voice's tuning is stretched (as expected) when playing along with a voice that has no inharmonicity (such as the organ or harpsichord). Then, of course, there's purely modeled instruments (like PianoTeq) where you can tune each note individually if you want.

I suspect the instrument the OP was playing had had a non-ET temperement set.

Here's my challenge to you smile
find an electronic keyboard with either or both of these...
A scale with thirds that progressively speed up nicely. Or
An octave within which the individual notes sound pure like a well tuned unison should. No meowing going on.
If you really think you have one please tell me the make and model, or video it with good sound and I will withdraw my claim!

Nick

For PianoTeq you could try this one as it's a relatively slow piece:


For the Yamaha AvantGrand, you could always look at the Yamaha marketing videos as the sound is pretty well recorded. Eg.

Last edited by pyropaul; 01/05/22 05:56 PM. Reason: Added AvantGrand video
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,050
M
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,050
And now I see on the N1X thread that there is a choice of temperaments available. I wonder if someone had messed with the samples on the showroom?

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
And now I see on the N1X thread that there is a choice of temperaments available. I wonder if someone had messed with the samples on the showroom?


That would be my guess Maestro!

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by pyropaul
[quote

For PianoTeq you could try this one as it's a relatively slow piece:


For the Yamaha AvantGrand, you could always look at the Yamaha marketing videos as the sound is pretty well recorded. Eg.

I think that there's confusion here. These videos don't even attempt to address what I'm talking about.
My challenge remains.


Nick, ageing piano technician
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by pyropaul
[quote

For PianoTeq you could try this one as it's a relatively slow piece:


For the Yamaha AvantGrand, you could always look at the Yamaha marketing videos as the sound is pretty well recorded. Eg.

I think that there's confusion here. These videos don't even attempt to address what I'm talking about.
My challenge remains.

You said "An octave within which the individual notes sound pure like a well tuned unison should. No meowing going on."

I didn't hear any miaowing in either of the two videos - if you did, can you point out the times where you could hear it?

I do own a 24 year old Yamaha P120 and I can definitely hear the loops repeating as the samples are only a couple of seconds. But modern sampled pianos do not use loops at all - so any miaowing would come from any mis-tuning or imperfections in the piano being sampled. As for the physically modelled pianos like PianoTeq, you can set the "unison width" to whatever suits your taste - in the video above you can see the control and hear the result. If I had access to this I'd create a recording of consecutive 3rds ... but I don't. Given they you can set the tuning on any note, you can really create any kind of temperement you want. Note also that PianoTeq has an octave stretch parameter too ... so you can also create impure octave as well.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by N W
[quote=pyropaul][quote=N W][quote=Maestro Lennie]Well, perhaps.

Here's my challenge to you smile
find an electronic keyboard with either or both of these...
A scale with thirds that progressively speed up nicely. Or
An octave within which the individual notes sound pure like a well tuned unison should. No meowing going on.
If you really think you have one please tell me the make and model, or video it with good sound and I will withdraw my claim!

Nick


Ok let's have another go. Go to https://www.modartt.com/grotrian then listen to this track - it should have the "no meowing well tuned unison" sound you're asking for.

https://www.modartt.com/data/audio/...ge%20a%20Rameau%20-%20Young-Ah%20Tak.mp3

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
Here is the Steinway, Yamaha and Bosendorfer on Logic Pro.



Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Thanks Jean - that's PianoTeq, right?

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Thanks Jean - that's PianoTeq, right?

No. That is the stock sampler in Logic Pro X on Mac.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by N W
[quote=pyropaul][quote=N W][quote=Maestro Lennie]Well, perhaps.

Here's my challenge to you smile
find an electronic keyboard with either or both of these...
A scale with thirds that progressively speed up nicely. Or
An octave within which the individual notes sound pure like a well tuned unison should. No meowing going on.
If you really think you have one please tell me the make and model, or video it with good sound and I will withdraw my claim!

Nick


Ok let's have another go. Go to https://www.modartt.com/grotrian then listen to this track - it should have the "no meowing well tuned unison" sound you're asking for.

https://www.modartt.com/data/audio/...ge%20a%20Rameau%20-%20Young-Ah%20Tak.mp3

Sorry to put you to the trouble and I appreciate your post, but no music will demonstrate what I'm referring to.
Accordeur has posted a suitable video which I think demonstrates my point exactly...listen to the beat rates as he goes up the thirds...

Also I was actually referring to stand alone electronic pianos, not computer programs, but even so, hopefully he will post a video of an octave's worth of single notes so that you can hear the unison quality.


Nick, ageing piano technician
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Immediate Job Opening
by TimM_980 - 08/15/22 01:41 AM
Twist and Shout!
by That Guy - 08/14/22 09:38 PM
Losing control of the tempo
by Sam S - 08/14/22 06:26 PM
Upgrade to Kawai GM-10 baby grand or large upright
by Hartstrings - 08/14/22 06:19 PM
Disconnecting pedal rods
by skern49 - 08/14/22 05:35 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics214,399
Posts3,216,358
Members106,085
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5