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Joined: Mar 2019
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Alright.

There's now one single DP standing in the way of me reaching the conclusion that there's no such thing as a digital -as opposed to hybrid- piano. The reason probably being that I've not tried that one DP yet.

First things first: congratulations to Kawai for the Novus. I assume the rest of manufacturers offering things in this price bracket provide loosely similar quality. Action wise, these hybrids are indeed instruments where a classical pianist-to-be could train. If you're looking for something serious, this is your (my) bare minimum.

Incidentally, the reason I'm trying to buy a DP is because they come in two pieces and you can potentially move them relatively easily. You can't do that with a Novus, afaik.

Now, on with the CA-79.

This is where I ask you all something. There has been a misunderstanding here I believe. All along I thought there would be some model, somewhere where a high end DP's action would overlap with a dirt cheap acoustic one. Apparently that's not the case.

I tried the CA-79, and... You remember when I called CASIO's GP 310 action a sleepy fat baby, and Roland 704's one a vertical with an eating disorder? Well, KAWAI CA-79 truly offers the soul of an acoustic action. You can feel it, and it's something out of X Files, because the rest of the body is not quite there. Barring the YAMAHA CLP-775 which I've not yet tried, it's probably the best action I'm not buying.

I had the rare chance today of playing on my acoustic vertical after 10 days on the VLC-1. I had to spend nearly 30 minutes regaining my finger strenght. And it's not a heavy piano, my acoustic. Imagine if I hadn't been able to play on it before arriving at the music school a week from now. Then, what?

I don't understand people telling other people, specially students, to go buy DPs.

On Sunday, ladies and gentlemen, I'll tell you about the 775.

Peace.

Last edited by Usheraname; 01/04/22 04:12 PM.
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I told you you should get a hybrid. smile

To be honest I don't really understand how you can expect a imitation action of a dp to be sufficient for a high level piano student as yourself. They are quite different from a real action technically, of course it's going to feel different. You don't practice in a electric car and then expect to perform well in a petrol car race.

I think if your that serious, then you should practice on an action that serious as well.

But, I think some of these hybrids actually do come in 2 pieces, but I don't know how easy they are to take apart. Maybe you can look up some unboxing and set-up videos on YouTube to see if it's doable for your situation.

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Originally Posted by U3piano
I think some of these hybrids actually do come in 2 pieces

Indeed. The NV10 is said to come in two boxes. However, I expect each halve to be as bulky and heavy as a complete entry-level digital piano :-)

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Originally Posted by Usheraname
Incidentally, the reason I'm trying to buy a DP is because they come in two pieces and you can potentially move them relatively easily. You can't do that with a Novus, afaik.

Well...*technically speaking* the NV-10 can be broken down into two pieces for movement. But I wouldn't call it an easy move. I think the NV-5 is one-piece because of the integrated soundboard.

Originally Posted by Usheraname
I tried the CA-79, and... You remember when I called CASIO's GP 310 action a sleepy fat baby, and Roland 704's one a vertical with an eating disorder? Well, KAWAI CA-79 truly offers the soul of an acoustic action. You can feel it, and it's something out of X Files, because the rest of the body is not quite there. Barring the YAMAHA CLP-775 which I've not yet tried, it's probably the best action I'm not buying.
Kawai's Grand Feel action is undisputedly nice. I haven't tried the latest GF3 variant in the CA-79, but it does address a lot of the major complaints from the GF1 and GF2 (soft/spongy bottoming out, use of slip tape). So I'm not surprised you like it. Whether it feels better to you than any other action (digital or otherwise) is probably a matter of personal preference, honestly.

Originally Posted by Usheraname
I had the rare chance today of playing on my acoustic vertical after 10 days on the VLC-1. I had to spend nearly 30 minutes regaining my finger strenght. And it's not a heavy piano, my acoustic.
Key weighting is more complex than "light" or "heavy." An acoustic action has a lot more physical components behind it than a VPC-1, so even if the VPC-1 may have "heavier" downweight (static weight), it may take more force to move an otherwise lighter acoustic action quickly (dynamic weight).


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Good review. So does that mean you could live with the Ca79? It's £3000 cheaper than a Novus Nv5! Also did you try the Ca99 Vs 79?

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Originally Posted by Usheraname
. . .
I had the rare chance today of playing on my acoustic vertical after 10 days on the VLC-1. I had to spend nearly 30 minutes regaining my finger strenght. And it's not a heavy piano, my acoustic. Imagine if I hadn't been able to play on it before arriving at the music school a week from now. Then, what?

I

I think you're describing what happened in a confusing way.

Your "finger strength" wouldn't have degraded much, in ten days. And if it only took you 30 minutes to regain it, that's _really_ good evidence that it didn't degrade:

. . . muscles don't regain strength that quickly, if they are weakened.

What happened -- I think -- is that it took you 30 minutes to recover your acoustic-based playing habits (or what I'd call a "velocity-to-volume map"). That's the largely-unconscious sense of:

. . . "to get the sound (volume and/or tone) I want, I have to strike the key _this_ hard."

That _will_ be different between a DP and an acoustic -- especially if the DP emulates a "grand action", and the acoustic is an upright.

You got used to the VPC-1, and were surprised when you switched to the acoustic and it didn't sound right?

. . . Next time you do that, it will take you less than 30 minutes to re-adapt.

I had the problem (at a much less sophisticated level), going from my Casio PX-350 to my teacher's Yamaha upright, for lessons. The problem was half-solved by setting the Casio's "Touch" to "Hard-1" (instead of "Medium"). The other half -- the Casio's too-short sustain, and lack of cross-string resonance -- required switching to a VST (Pianoteq).

Once I did that, what I did in practice, worked pretty much the same in lessons.

The problem is similar to what happens when you rent a car, of a type you've never driven. It takes a while to adjust to the new car's responses to control inputs -- steering feel, accelerator sensitivity, brake feel.

I sympathize with your frustration. But I think you're overstating the case when you say:

Quote
I don't understand people telling other people, specially students, to go buy DPs.


. Charles
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Originally Posted by Usheraname
I don't understand people telling other people, specially students, to go buy DPs.

A curious statement, to be sure!

No one told you to buy a digital piano. In another thread you asked, as a student with portability and -presumably- silent practice in mind, which digital piano we would recommend. The consensus was that the Kawai CA79 is one of the best options with such constraints.

Remember when I told you that I shopped for six months for a digital piano upgrade ... and ended up buying an acoustic grand instead?

Sure, my grand piano offers far better dynamic control with its heavier action, and it sounds much better without the limitations of digital piano speakers.

But I still enjoy my digital for its features that no acoustic can offer -- calling on hundreds of instruments at the touch of a button, playing orchestral parts while I play the lead on the piano, etc. Each has its place!

All the best,
Lotus
____________________________________
Having fun with: Tema con Variazioni from
Mozart: Sonata in D, K. 284, "Durnitz" on
Kawai GM-10 grand / Yamaha DGX-660 digital

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The volume setting on the digital, and also the key sensitivity setting, changes how it feels. Neither of these changes the physical response of the keys, but it changes the players perception of the keys and the instrument as a whole. If being able to easily switch between acoustic and digital is important, turn the volume on the digital most of the way up.


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Originally Posted by U3piano
I told you you should get a hybrid. smile

To be honest I don't really understand how you can expect a imitation action of a dp to be sufficient for a high level piano student as yourself. They are quite different from a real action technically, of course it's going to feel different. You don't practice in a electric car and then expect to perform well in a petrol car race.

I think if your that serious, then you should practice on an action that serious as well.

But, I think some of these hybrids actually do come in 2 pieces, but I don't know how easy they are to take apart. Maybe you can look up some unboxing and set-up videos on YouTube to see if it's doable for your situation.

You were right it seems.

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Originally Posted by Cutec
Good review. So does that mean you could live with the Ca79? It's £3000 cheaper than a Novus Nv5! Also did you try the Ca99 Vs 79?
I could not, to the first question, and no to the second but afaik the action is the same

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Originally Posted by Lotus1
Originally Posted by Usheraname
I don't understand people telling other people, specially students, to go buy DPs.

A curious statement, to be sure!

No one told you to buy a digital piano. In another thread you asked, as a student with portability and -presumably- silent practice in mind, which digital piano we would recommend. The consensus was that the Kawai CA79 is one of the best options with such constraints.

Remember when I told you that I shopped for six months for a digital piano upgrade ... and ended up buying an acoustic grand instead?

Sure, my grand piano offers far better dynamic control with its heavier action, and it sounds much better without the limitations of digital piano speakers.

But I still enjoy my digital for its features that no acoustic can offer -- calling on hundreds of instruments at the touch of a button, playing orchestral parts while I play the lead on the piano, etc. Each has its place!

All the best,
Lotus
____________________________________
Having fun with: Tema con Variazioni from
Mozart: Sonata in D, K. 284, "Durnitz" on
Kawai GM-10 grand / Yamaha DGX-660 digital
Glad to read you. I wasn't referring to you guys telling people to buy DPs, rather to Youtubers.

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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by Usheraname
. . .
I had the rare chance today of playing on my acoustic vertical after 10 days on the VLC-1. I had to spend nearly 30 minutes regaining my finger strenght. And it's not a heavy piano, my acoustic. Imagine if I hadn't been able to play on it before arriving at the music school a week from now. Then, what?

I

I think you're describing what happened in a confusing way.

Your "finger strength" wouldn't have degraded much, in ten days. And if it only took you 30 minutes to regain it, that's _really_ good evidence that it didn't degrade:

. . . muscles don't regain strength that quickly, if they are weakened.

What happened -- I think -- is that it took you 30 minutes to recover your acoustic-based playing habits (or what I'd call a "velocity-to-volume map"). That's the largely-unconscious sense of:

. . . "to get the sound (volume and/or tone) I want, I have to strike the key _this_ hard."

That _will_ be different between a DP and an acoustic -- especially if the DP emulates a "grand action", and the acoustic is an upright.

You got used to the VPC-1, and were surprised when you switched to the acoustic and it didn't sound right?

. . . Next time you do that, it will take you less than 30 minutes to re-adapt.

I had the problem (at a much less sophisticated level), going from my Casio PX-350 to my teacher's Yamaha upright, for lessons. The problem was half-solved by setting the Casio's "Touch" to "Hard-1" (instead of "Medium"). The other half -- the Casio's too-short sustain, and lack of cross-string resonance -- required switching to a VST (Pianoteq).

Once I did that, what I did in practice, worked pretty much the same in lessons.

The problem is similar to what happens when you rent a car, of a type you've never driven. It takes a while to adjust to the new car's responses to control inputs -- steering feel, accelerator sensitivity, brake feel.

I sympathize with your frustration. But I think you're overstating the case when you say:

Quote
I don't understand people telling other people, specially students, to go buy DPs.
My statement involves only those in high performance classical settings.

I cannot say that I know the subtleties of finger musculature. I can only speak of what it felt like.

As to the response curve settings in DPs, which is a built in software feature in my VPC1, my experience is that grands do not correspond with a "hard" response configuration, but rather the opposite. Grands are rather quick to the touch, whereas the "hard" digital configuration just makes me need to smash the key in order to get ≥ forte. Tuning the curve might help a little, but ultimately it results in a variation on the same theme. I do believe physical key pushback weight plays a role.

Last edited by Usheraname; 01/05/22 05:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Usheraname
I cannot say that I know the subtleties of finger musculature. I can only speak of what it felt like.

It does not take a great student of biology to know that muscles are built up on a timescale of days, weeks and months, not minutes.

If you're seeing a difference in results within the same day, something different is at work.


Kawai CA79

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