2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
48 members (Carey, AndrewJCW, David Boyce, CharlesXX, Adem, 18 invisible), 382 guests, and 262 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by N W
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by N W
[quote=pyropaul][quote=N W][quote=Maestro Lennie]Well, perhaps.

Here's my challenge to you smile
find an electronic keyboard with either or both of these...
A scale with thirds that progressively speed up nicely. Or
An octave within which the individual notes sound pure like a well tuned unison should. No meowing going on.
If you really think you have one please tell me the make and model, or video it with good sound and I will withdraw my claim!

Nick


Ok let's have another go. Go to https://www.modartt.com/grotrian then listen to this track - it should have the "no meowing well tuned unison" sound you're asking for.

https://www.modartt.com/data/audio/...ge%20a%20Rameau%20-%20Young-Ah%20Tak.mp3

Sorry to put you to the trouble and I appreciate your post, but no music will demonstrate what I'm referring to.
Accordeur has posted a suitable video which I think demonstrates my point exactly...listen to the beat rates as he goes up the thirds...

Also I was actually referring to stand alone electronic pianos, not computer programs, but even so, hopefully he will post a video of an octave's worth of single notes so that you can hear the unison quality.

You might be surprised how many people use "computer programs" rather than dedicated instruments these days. If you have a good weighted controller, it's essentially the same thing as a stand-alone instrument, but more versatile.

Actually, if you have a midi keyboard, you could download the trial version of PianoTeq and test it out for yourself. A few notes are disabled, but it should give you all you need to confirm the tuning quality (or otherwise).

Perhaps you could also upload a recording of one of your tunings so we can see what level of progressiveness is what you consider the baseline for this comparison.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
I've no way of uploading sorry, I'm too old!
Taking the video with the Steinway, Yamaha and Bosie I would say that the Steinway is close to good, the Yam is not great at all and the bosie is awful.

I'm aware that you understandably think my original statement is controversial. And I accept that the electronic world is improving. But I can promise you that when I have raised this with the manufacturers, they say that the original attempts at getting it "right" failed because of reported blandness. When I raise it with tuners here in the UK most have never thought about it but go away and listen to as many as they can, including very expensive ones, and come back and tell me how shocked they are at all aspects of the tuning. Here I will make my position worse ! smile Try listening to tenths and even double octaves...you just wouldn't dare leave a real piano like this for a discerning player.

I can't prove it by argument, I can only suggest you have a good listen in a quiet store.


Nick, ageing piano technician
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
Originally Posted by N W
I've no way of uploading sorry, I'm too old!
Taking the video with the Steinway, Yamaha and Bosie I would say that the Steinway is close to good, the Yam is not great at all and the bosie is awful.

I'm aware that you understandably think my original statement is controversial. And I accept that the electronic world is improving. But I can promise you that when I have raised this with the manufacturers, they say that the original attempts at getting it "right" failed because of reported blandness. When I raise it with tuners here in the UK most have never thought about it but go away and listen to as many as they can, including very expensive ones, and come back and tell me how shocked they are at all aspects of the tuning. Here I will make my position worse ! smile Try listening to tenths and even double octaves...you just wouldn't dare leave a real piano like this for a discerning player.

I can't prove it by argument, I can only suggest you have a good listen in a quiet store.

An interesting discussion. Thank you for initiating it.

I spent some years without an acoustic piano in my apartment. My grand was at a church. I bought a DP and loved it. I never noticed any issues with tuning, but then I wasn't 'attuned' to listening for issues. That said, when I bought a new M&H BB and started tuning it myself, I still used my DP for MIDI work and score creation and practicing when my wife was teaching on the grand.

I started to notice that the tuning on the DP was flawed. Some slightly meowing unisons, a few poor intervals, and some bass duples whose iHs were not the same, much like my grand at my church.

Here is the issue: It never changed. Every time I sat at the piano, it sounded exactly the same. On an AP, I sensed to slow, inevitable shift in unisons, blossoming from a dead-on tuning. I sensed the soundboard swelling slightly as the RH changed over a month by a few percent. These make the piano alive.

I think that a DP with perfectly progressive thirds along with consistent 5ths and 4ths, and a smooth iH transition over the break, all never changing, would be so bland that the player would soon get bored and desire predictable changes similar to an AP.

Last edited by prout; 01/06/22 11:05 AM.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by N W
I've no way of uploading sorry, I'm too old!
Taking the video with the Steinway, Yamaha and Bosie I would say that the Steinway is close to good, the Yam is not great at all and the bosie is awful.

I'm aware that you understandably think my original statement is controversial. And I accept that the electronic world is improving. But I can promise you that when I have raised this with the manufacturers, they say that the original attempts at getting it "right" failed because of reported blandness. When I raise it with tuners here in the UK most have never thought about it but go away and listen to as many as they can, including very expensive ones, and come back and tell me how shocked they are at all aspects of the tuning. Here I will make my position worse ! smile Try listening to tenths and even double octaves...you just wouldn't dare leave a real piano like this for a discerning player.

I can't prove it by argument, I can only suggest you have a good listen in a quiet store.

Thanks for your thoughts. Actually, I have a hypothesis for the stand-alone electronic pianos versus software like PianoTeq. All of the stand-alone pianos support more than just piano sounds, including instruments that don't have inharmonicity. Indeed, the ancient Yamaha P120 I have allows you to play 2 different instruments at once. Already I can hear beats in the upper and lower octaves when the piano voice is layered with something else. I suspect they modify the stretch somewhat so as to make these beats between different instruments less offensive.

For the modelled instruments like PianoTeq, you can microtune each note to your liking so you can set as accurate (or not) ET as you want. You also have full control of the amount of detuning between the modelled strings in a unison all the way from dead-on (which doesn't sound realistic) to full-on Honky Tonk.

BTW, you're never too old to be able to upload! If you can write on a forum, you can do anything!

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by prout
[...]

I think that a DP with perfectly progressive thirds along with consistent 5ths and 4ths, and a smooth iH transition over the break, all never changing, would be so bland that the player would soon get bored and desire predictable changes similar to an AP.

So why do concert pianists have their own technicians to ensure their concert grands are perfectly tuned and voiced before every concert? If they were getting as bored as you suggest wouldn't they want the tuning to drift from concert to concert on a tour? I strongly suspect not!

A perfectly tuned and voiced piano is just the starting point for creating the colours the music calls for.

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
Pyropaul. Good point. I hadn't thought of that. The pipe organ has pure, beatless, not-stretched octaves, even though other intervals must be tempered as desired, so a DP imitating an organ should do the same.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by prout
Pyropaul. Good point. I hadn't thought of that. The pipe organ has pure, beatless, not-stretched octaves, even though other intervals must be tempered as desired, so a DP imitating an organ should do the same.

Indeed. Same for the harpsichord, plus guitar, vibes etc. They're all without inharmonicity. Really, though, it's only with the organ voice that it's noticeable as the others don't tend to have the same compass as the piano.

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
N
N W Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 434
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by N W
I've no way of uploading sorry, I'm too old!
Taking the video with the Steinway, Yamaha and Bosie I would say that the Steinway is close to good, the Yam is not great at all and the bosie is awful.

I'm aware that you understandably think my original statement is controversial. And I accept that the electronic world is improving. But I can promise you that when I have raised this with the manufacturers, they say that the original attempts at getting it "right" failed because of reported blandness. When I raise it with tuners here in the UK most have never thought about it but go away and listen to as many as they can, including very expensive ones, and come back and tell me how shocked they are at all aspects of the tuning. Here I will make my position worse ! smile Try listening to tenths and even double octaves...you just wouldn't dare leave a real piano like this for a discerning player.

I can't prove it by argument, I can only suggest you have a good listen in a quiet store.

An interesting discussion. Thank you for initiating it.

I spent some years without an acoustic piano in my apartment. My grand was at a church. I bought a DP and loved it. I never noticed any issues with tuning, but then I wasn't 'attuned' to listening for issues. That said, when I bought a new M&H BB and started tuning it myself, I still used my DP for MIDI work and score creation and practicing when my wife was teaching on the grand.

I started to notice that the tuning on the DP was flawed. Some slightly meowing unisons, a few poor intervals, and some bass duples whose iHs were not the same, much like my grand at my church.

Here is the issue: It never changed. Every time I sat at the piano, it sounded exactly the same. On an AP, I sensed to slow, inevitable shift in unisons, blossoming from a dead-on tuning. I sensed the soundboard swelling slightly as the RH changed over a month by a few percent. These make the piano alive.

I think that a DP with perfectly progressive thirds along with consistent 5ths and 4ths, and a smooth iH transition over the break, all never changing, would be so bland that the player would soon get bored and desire predictable changes similar to an AP.
I think that you are pointing out a human requirement. We love intermittent reinforcement according to the psychologists.
So we get a real high when the tuner has been....all the harmonics line up nicely and although we don't analyse it intellectually, we get the buzz thanks to the freshness of the tuning. Then it gradually slips away, slowly giving less rewards until...bang, we retune and get another high. Humans like this alternation.
Would I be going too far if I suggested that tuning is the reason acoustic pianos never sound boring but, however good the pianist, electronic ones don't withstand a good listen, they suck the music out in the way MP3s suck out fidelity.
Convenience, full marks electronics. Musicality, full marks real strings. smile
Take for instance, just volume levels. The latest keyboards can sense quite a few differences in the speed that the key is struck, but it's still a finite number. Whereas an acoustic piano has infinite variations. Add, harmonics, sustain etc. with similar arguments and they are two entirely seperate instruments aren't they?
Only my 2 cents as usual. I don't expect anyone to agree...


Nick, ageing piano technician
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by prout
Pyropaul. Good point. I hadn't thought of that. The pipe organ has pure, beatless, not-stretched octaves, even though other intervals must be tempered as desired, so a DP imitating an organ should do the same.

Indeed. Same for the harpsichord, plus guitar, vibes etc. They're all without inharmonicity. Really, though, it's only with the organ voice that it's noticeable as the others don't tend to have the same compass as the piano.

To be completely accurate (and pedantic, sorry), any struck or plucked string produces inharmonicity. Bowed strings produce harmonics. The reason I can tune a harpsichord or my clavichords, disregarding the inharmonicity, is due to their very rapid upper partial decay. I treat them as if a pipe organ.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by prout
Pyropaul. Good point. I hadn't thought of that. The pipe organ has pure, beatless, not-stretched octaves, even though other intervals must be tempered as desired, so a DP imitating an organ should do the same.

Indeed. Same for the harpsichord, plus guitar, vibes etc. They're all without inharmonicity. Really, though, it's only with the organ voice that it's noticeable as the others don't tend to have the same compass as the piano.

To be completely accurate (and pedantic, sorry), any struck or plucked string produces inharmonicity. Bowed strings produce harmonics. The reason I can tune a harpsichord or my clavichords, disregarding the inharmonicity, is due to their very rapid upper partial decay. I treat them as if a pipe organ.

Fair enough. The strings of guitars (especially) and harpsichords are not under anywhere near as much tension as piano strings and so their inharmonicity is low enough to be ignored, though, as you rightly point out, it's not zero. Even pipe organs have tiny bit due to the different effective diameter of the pipes depending on the harmonic which affects the length a tiny bit - but it's close enough to zero to ignore. Bowed strings are fully harmonic because their excitation is "driven".

Wide Organ Pipe inharmonicity discussion over at the PTG

Last edited by pyropaul; 01/06/22 01:06 PM. Reason: fixed long link to make it readable
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,831
Yeah, the whole area of iH is fascinating. You are quite correct that a tiny amount of iH occurs in pipe organs, especially in the initial 10 periods or so of excitation. This time length produces the characteristic 'chiff' or 'spitz' and a number of other sounds that are so desirable in a pipe organ. For the most part though, once a steady state has been achieved on a flute or organ pipe, or violin or oboe, mode-locking forces the inharmonic partials into harmonics.

'Driven' is the best word. I am trying to build a 7MHz vacuum tube oscillator that has the driven harmonics at least 50dB down, but I couple it to the next stage, and the 2nd and 7th harmonics are only 20dB down. My electronic physics is not yet sufficient to understand the phenomenon.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
I also believe that digital manufacturers deliberately detune their samples to make it sound more realistic.

Here are unisons, octaves and 10ths of the same 3 pianos. This time I removed all EQ and reverbs, effects etc.



Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,658
Special prize to the person that can name the type of action in the picture on the video.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Immediate Job Opening
by TimM_980 - 08/15/22 01:41 AM
Twist and Shout!
by That Guy - 08/14/22 09:38 PM
Losing control of the tempo
by Sam S - 08/14/22 06:26 PM
Upgrade to Kawai GM-10 baby grand or large upright
by Hartstrings - 08/14/22 06:19 PM
Disconnecting pedal rods
by skern49 - 08/14/22 05:35 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics214,399
Posts3,216,352
Members106,085
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5