2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
86 members (BillS728, Andy Marx, 80k, anamnesis, Adagiette, axomas, BerndAB, 20 invisible), 2,320 guests, and 345 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
Originally Posted by VeritasNL
I know it's not a complete fair comparison, but for me the depth of the piano defines the 'bulkiness' more than the height does.

You are entitled to compare based on anything that matters to you :), however for most of us the dimension which corresponds to piano quality is the height for an upright or the length for a grand. This is because a greater height allows longer strings which can enable a better tone., generally we are pretty uninterested in the width unless fitting the piano into a very tight space and also pretty uninterested in the depth *unless* advantage is taken of the extra depth to allow longer keys or other perhaps unlikely advantages.

Last edited by gwing; 01/06/22 01:51 PM.
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 68
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 68
Hi VeritasNL, most of documents/ articles on piano knowledge I read only compare the heights of upright pianos because it decides the length of bass strings. Finally you should listen to see the different if any. To me, K500/U3 tone is significantly different from K300/U1 one, respectively.


Every day is a gift
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,020
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,020
Originally Posted by VinV
Hi VeritasNL, most of documents/ articles on piano knowledge I read only compare the heights of upright pianos because it decides the length of bass strings. Finally you should listen to see the different if any. To me, K500/U3 tone is significantly different from K300/U1 one, respectively.
I agree,no comparison!

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,187
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,187
Overall height is a useful comparison tool of the "class" of mass produced uprights, but specs about longest bass string or soundboard area are easy to misconstrue because they are part of a larger design (string length) or not universally measured (how does each maker deal with cutoff bars or dead areas of the soundboard panel?). Many manufacturer's have coined some dubious design features that enhance specs. For example, I recall spinets made to look tall to confuse potential buyers when spinets started to fall out of favor. I recall continental consoles made to look like studio uprights by adding legs and adding spacers that were then described as "tone holes". There is gamesmanship happening, even when it's not deceitful as adding a spacer to gain height.

I embrace the different voices of these popular models (and others, by the way), but I do not arrive at the same conclusions about their relative equivalence based on height comparisons.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,020
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,020
I respect PianoWorksATL, knowledge and experience.I can only suggest playing the different models a number of times.Take someone with you who can play, walk around and listen to the piano carefully.Only you can decide what you prefer and what you like when it comes to aspects of balance, tone quality, response and sustain.Visit the piano you like a number of times before you decide.

That is what we did when we bought our Schimmel.This piano was ideal for us.(we were replacing an older C2 grand which needed some serious restoration)

Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,020
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,020
A good 130 or 132 upright I believe is often a really good reason not to buy a small grand, because of the better bass and overall improved balance of the sound. That may be my experience,😉 or perhaps because I have been lucky enough to come across very good examples of these taller uprights.
Buying a grand seems to have become far more popular than in the past.That may have to do with a number of things apart from musical. Of course uprights are still sold in greater numbers.(I realise this is rather OT) Anyway I expect to be shot down in fury very soon.


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 553
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 553
Originally Posted by VeritasNL
With these prices, wouldn't it be better to spend another 2600 euro for a brand new Kawai K300 with the ATX4 system? The silent system will be much superior and it will be completely new.

Hi VeritasNL,

This is what I ended up deciding, in a similar situation almost two years ago. The price difference between a rather old (>30 years!) Yahama (or other good brand) + aftermarket silent system and a new Kawai K300 ATX3/4 is not so large.

I have a K300 ATX3 (almost 2 years old, bought new) and a very happy with it. Many people here on PW report favorably on the K300 (and also K500).

The K300 as sold in the EU is built in Indonesia, while the U1 and K500 are built in Japan. This likely explains part of the price differences in the EU.

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,090
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,090
Piano height is almost irrelevant. Major Japanese Piano Company R, for instance, make a 121 piano which is a 112 with space added to the top containing many litres of air.

Piano Q, made in USA extends the bass strings to the floor and has bigger bass than many much larger pianos.

Piano design, materials and execution is the most important. Specs are for marketing departments and the general public. They have no bearing at all on the piano and I suggest ignoring them and just find a piano you like

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
Piano height is almost irrelevant. Major Japanese Piano Company R, for instance, make a 121 piano which is a 112 with space added to the top containing many litres of air.

Piano Q, made in USA extends the bass strings to the floor and has bigger bass than many much larger pianos.

Piano design, materials and execution is the most important. Specs are for marketing departments and the general public. They have no bearing at all on the piano and I suggest ignoring them and just find a piano you like

Well, yes, you can get poor pianos in all sizes and manufacturers that perhaps mislead buyers a bit but lets not compare apples to oranges. It is not for nothing that we all distinguish between pianos of the same type in a manufacturers range by height/length rather than some other dimension - and that is because the height/length is the factor which determines quality, and cost, the most.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by VeritasNL
With these prices, wouldn't it be better to spend another 2600 euro for a brand new Kawai K300 with the ATX4 system? The silent system will be much superior and it will be completely new.

Hi VeritasNL,

This is what I ended up deciding, in a similar situation almost two years ago. The price difference between a rather old (>30 years!) Yahama (or other good brand) + aftermarket silent system and a new Kawai K300 ATX3/4 is not so large.

I have a K300 ATX3 (almost 2 years old, bought new) and a very happy with it. Many people here on PW report favorably on the K300 (and also K500).

The K300 as sold in the EU is built in Indonesia, while the U1 and K500 are built in Japan. This likely explains part of the price differences in the EU.

I think, although I can't guarantee it, that the K300 sold here in Europe is manufactured in Japan but, either way, I don't think that explains the price differential. It is a similar EU/USA price ratio for both the U1/K300 comparison and the U3/K500 comparison so it isn't just that we have a cheaper manufactured K300. Yamahas seem to be (relatively) better priced in the US and Kawais better priced in Europe which I put down to a difference in marketing and distribution. Not just Yamaha and Kawai of course - many other brands have global differences in their price structure.

Last edited by gwing; 01/07/22 07:02 AM.
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 25
V
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 25
Sooooo...I just got back from a piano store that had both the K300, K500 and the U1 (1986) in stock.

I really wanted to, but I couldn't get the K300 and K500 to sound like the way I want a piano to sound. Most of what I play is more pop / blues focused and I was just really missing the treble which you get from playing a U1.

That being said: the K300 and K500 sounded beautiful in the lower dynamics and lower register. So it's really a difficult choice. Also, the ATX4 sounds and responsiveness were absolutely amazing. I haven't been able to test the Adsilent system, but I can imagine it will perform a bit less than that.

General observations:

U1
[list]
[*]Very light / easy to play
[*]LOUD, even louder than the K500. This could be also due to the fact it was so light to play.
[*] Lots of treble and airiness.
[*] Harder to play very softly
[*] I'm 190cm and couldn't get my knees under the piano.

K300 / K500
[*]A bit heavier to play.
[*]In terms of overall volume softer than the U1.
[*]A lot 'darker' than the U1, almost as if somebody would put a low pass filter on it. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't really fit the music I play mostly.
[*]ATX4 system is absolutely gorgeous
[*] Very comfortable to sit at as my legs fit under the keyboard easily.

Do these conclusions match the general assumptions of these piano's?

As I found the U1 a bit TOO bright / aggressive, the salesman showed me another piano from the brand Hermann Jacobi. Has anyone heard of this brand? The only info I could find is that it's a Swiss piano builder, but that's about it. Curious how they are rated by the technicians.

Last edited by VeritasNL; 01/08/22 12:26 PM.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,175

Platinum Supporter until November 30 2022
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until November 30 2022
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,175
Originally Posted by VeritasNL
The salesman showed me another piano from the brand Hermann Jacobi. Has anyone heard of this brand? The only info I could find is that it's a Swiss piano builder, but that's about it. Curious how they are rated by the technicians.
I found one source stating that these pianos, while designed in Europe, are actually built in China.

Piano de conception européenne assemblé en Chine.
Excellent rapport qualité/prix...
Sonorité claire mais pas agressive.



Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
Korg SP-100 Stage Piano
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 68
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 68
Hi VeritasNL, how are your “piano adventure”? After reading your own comparison on U1, K300/500, I think you should look for an Yamaha U3 and try it (hope that it is available in your area and budget is allowed). It seems that Kawai is not suitable to your taste and the music you play. As my experience, U3 can have Yamaha typical treble tone you prefer but not too bright with nicer low register vs U1. I was looking for an old uprights last month and I agree with you that most of U1 in 1980-1990 are often too bright. I had chance to play 2-3 U3 after 1990 and the sound is much nicer. Good luck!


Every day is a gift
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 153
M
Man Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 153
Quote
As I found the U1 a bit TOO bright / aggressive, the salesman showed me another piano from the brand Hermann Jacobi. Has anyone heard of this brand? The only info I could find is that it's a Swiss piano builder, but that's about it. Curious how they are rated by the technicians.

Not an expert in piano at all, here.

There are still a few used units of this brand around here, in Switzerland. There probably is a relationship with the brand Burger Jacobi (change of partnership?), which seems to have been popular, back in the day. There are quite a few used units of this second brand still sold, as well. Some are even refurbished/rebuilt.

Those two brand were supposed to be defunct for decades, but a "revival" via brand acquisition is common nowadays.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,818
Originally Posted by VinV
Hi VeritasNL, how are your “piano adventure”? After reading your own comparison on U1, K300/500, I think you should look for an Yamaha U3 and try it (hope that it is available in your area and budget is allowed). It seems that Kawai is not suitable to your taste and the music you play. As my experience, U3 can have Yamaha typical treble tone you prefer but not too bright with nicer low register vs U1. I was looking for an old uprights last month and I agree with you that most of U1 in 1980-1990 are often too bright. I had chance to play 2-3 U3 after 1990 and the sound is much nicer. Good luck!

Yes, try a U3 if you can, it may give you more in the bass and mid range that you hear in the Kawais.

If the U1 is too bright for you try some other U1 (and U3) pianos as well as some are much brighter than others. I think that some of the 'special' models from Japan such as my old UX3 (a U3 variant) tend to be somewhat less bright as well but that is hard to be certain on as there is so much variance between individual instruments. Play lots, pick the one you like best :-)

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 25
V
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 25
Hi guys,

I like the U3 but it's a bit too bulky for our living room.

Another option came across, which is a Petrof 118 from 2007. Asking price is about 4.000 dollars / 3.500 euro's. It doesn't have the silent system though.
I really like the overtones / harmonics in this piano, but the playability is a lot better on the U1 IMO.

Last edited by VeritasNL; 01/13/22 09:16 AM.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,387
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,387
Didn’t you just mention this in a different thread yesterday? I’m confused.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
PTG search is unavailable?
by ebonyk - 06/27/22 10:13 AM
Circle of fifths/ circle of fourths
by Wayne2467 - 06/27/22 10:05 AM
20 min. piano piece for competition
by lilys7 - 06/27/22 09:58 AM
Owner manual for Technics PR 170
by neville - 06/26/22 09:14 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,690
Posts3,203,622
Members105,655
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5