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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by almo82
This complexity inevitably leads to trade offs by engineers. Most DP's will have string resonance (a piano will sound awkward without it) , but silent playing is rarely used in music, and therefore may be blocked by engineers for practical considerations. Hence the value of the test.
Nobody has disputed the value of the test... what they disagree with is that it is a way to test polyphony. It is not. Rather, it is a way to test for the presence of a kind of sympathetic resonance (on those keyboards where the test is possible). There is no direct correlation between whether a piano supports those resonance and how much polyphony it has. Nord has had models with the kind of resonance you're talking about on models with polyphony as low as 40 stereo (60 mono), while Yamaha has 128-polyphony boards without it.

On most boards that support silent keypress, it is done by assigning a "silent" note to a Note On MIDI command with a velocity of 1. When that function is not available, it is not that it has been "blocked" for "practical considerations," but rather, it was not specifically implemented. By default, MIDI velocity 1 normally makes a sound; they would have to "special case" it to prevent it from making a sound, rather than block the attribute of it not making a sound. In real-world playing, the silent keypress is of questionable value, but it does permit a way to demonstrate that resonance feature if a piano has it, and arguably makes the replication of a piano that much more authentic, by permitting what would likely be the "mistake" of hitting a key so softly that it doesn't sound.

Thanks @anotherScott. Learned something new today!


It may be of interest to you that 20th century composers did actually write piano music that specified that a note be played silently. This is typically done for effect (maintaining a note, while the pedal s changed, or for resonance reason (achieving a resonant sound). The Sustenuto pedal, was partly invented (late 19th century by Steinway) to allow for such effects.
examples can be found in Prokofiev's fugitive visions and Arvo Part's arienushka variations, for instance.

Last edited by almo82; 01/20/22 02:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by David Izquierdo
Originally Posted by anotherscott
SL 88 Grand, Korg D1, Roland FP-30X, Kawai ES-110, Casio PX-360

The way to go +1

PX160 instead of the PX360 still makes sense, same keybed and sound I guess. Me personally I'd go the FP30X, a matter of taste anyway, try them all before buying.

Once you get bored of whatever sound, string/damper ressonance or missing any other sound richness, you can go dozens of great VST to make the full package along with the piano you chose, so focus on keybed primarily, my 2 cents..

Regards,
David

Actually I'm selling right now PX160 because I hate this keybed, sound was not bad, but keybed for me was awful. I was today in music store where dads friend is working and he said that yamaha keybeds sucks. I mean he said that yamaha keyboard last for 2 years and they are broken.

Also, I was checking out Casio AP-470 and it was much better than PX160, but still something was missing, I think it would be better for me if the keybed had faster action and was heavier.

Last edited by Jpiekar; 01/20/22 04:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by David Izquierdo
PX160 instead of the PX360 still makes sense, same keybed
Yes... I said PX360 because it is still available, while the PX-160 is discontinued.

Originally Posted by Jpiekar
Actually I'm selling right now PX160 because I hate this keybed...Also, I was checking out Casio AP-470 and it was much better than PX160
The PX-160 and AP-470 both have Casio's "Tri-sensor Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard II" action, so should feel very similar if not identical. But... sometimes what on paper should feel the same, for whatever reason, doesn't. Who knows why...

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Originally Posted by Jpiekar
I was today in music store where dads friend is working and he said that yamaha keybeds sucks. I mean he said that yamaha keyboard last for 2 years and they are broken.

yeah right. i guess that's why Yamahas have such a reputation for reliability and sell so well all over the world

There are countless threads on these forums addressing your original question. buy the best weighted 88 graded keyboard in your $1000 budget from kawai or roland (since you don't trust Yamaha). if you can try them out first, do so and go with what you prefer

Last edited by jackopiano; 01/20/22 10:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jpiekar
I mean he said that yamaha keyboard last for 2 years and they are broken.

"Yamaha keyboard" is a very broad umbrella term.
- They have the non-weighted synth keyboards, possibly several different key actions in those. I have no idea.
- They have several models of hammer action keyboards: GHS, GH3X, NWX, GrandTouch-S, GrandTouch and maybe a few more and of course the hybrids too with "acoustic actions".

Some of the latest Clavinovas have a new key action whose durability is probably still unknown.

But I don't have any idea of Yamaha's durability myself.

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This does not mean that I will not be looking at some Yamaha models, but still I'm curious if thats true.

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Originally Posted by Jpiekar
Actually I'm selling right now PX160 because I hate this keybed, sound was not bad, but keybed for me was awful. I was today in music store where dads friend is working and he said that yamaha keybeds sucks. I mean he said that yamaha keyboard last for 2 years and they are broken.

Also, I was checking out Casio AP-470 and it was much better than PX160, but still something was missing, I think it would be better for me if the keybed had faster action and was heavier.

If you can save some money here and there in a few months and get either a P-515 or ES-920. They have escapement and feel closer to an acoustic piano.

If one eats beans and potatoes and gets a 2nd job for 1-2 months, I'm sure they can afford the extra 500-600 bucks.


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Originally Posted by Jpiekar
I was today in music store where dads friend is working and he said that yamaha keybeds sucks. I mean he said that yamaha keyboard last for 2 years and they are broken.

I am not one of those ppl who believe everything they read or was told <especially on the internet or a sales person, etc.>

I've had many Yamaha digital pianos. Each one for more than two years and they never broke. I was not a fan of the CP4 but I bet most are still working fine unless they were dropped.


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I'd recommend the KAWAI ES920. I know it's around 1.5K thus a bit more than your budget but if you shift your mindset into your purchase being a long term investment, then it's worth waiting for next month's salary or buying 2nd hand than settling for an inferior product and losing money when craving an upgrade. The Keyboard feel of the 920 is not so far off from the highly revered KAWAI MP-11 (which is IMO the crem de la crem of digitals), and it's actually portable so you can take it out to play gigs or just for fun with friends and family.. You also save on external monitors for a while, as the speakers are actually decent enough.

Some people suggested models such as Kawai ES110 and Roland FP30 that are within your price range and while I can vouch that you cannot go wrong with either just test them against an ES920 (that costs nothing) and see whether the difference is substantial enough to warrant saving for it/looking for 2nd hand. If it's not, then you'll be happy with either of these 2 models. I also played a lot recently with a friend's P-125 at rehearsals, and surpringly I didn't think bad of the action. For hardcore classical stuff however, it won't be much fun.

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IMO, all weighted action digitals (except hybrids with real grand action,) have some sort of sluggishness to them. The bottoming out is also, IMO, not the same as a real grand. As I compromise, I think lighter but less sluggish is better in the long run - only my opinion.

I mostly agree with your view. I've played on many models, including Roland RDs, Nord Stages, Yamaha P515, Kawai ES920, Montage 88.. all tested with very technical and virtuoso stuff. They all felt sluggish at points compared to my university's Steinway Grand Piano which is just heaven, very fluid, fast key repetition possible easily. The ES920 which has one of lightest actions of the bunch was actually by far the least sluggish of them all, when speaking of portable DPs but still obviously nowhere near a decent grand piano. As you said, a compromise.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
recently discontinued FP-30 and FP-10

Hello,

For what it is worth in the context of this thread: the FP-10 is not discontinued (at least not in my neck of the woods).

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

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Hi Chummy,

Thanks for the input, I've never tried the Kawai ES920, but I've heard good things about it.

I'm curious though: you mention that ES920 has a very light Action, and see it as a positive. My Casio PX870 has a very light action, but I see that as its biggest shortcoming. The problem is that when I switch from it to an Accoustic Grand - I find control difficult, with passages that come off well on the DP, not working on the grand. (too loud, typically but that's partly my bad technique talking), so I have to adjust - which takes time. In essence, the process is learn the notes on the DP, polish and finish on the accoustic.

I wonder if your experience has been different?


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I actually have no experience with Casio weighted keyboards, it's one brand I never played DPs of, so I can't comment my personal thoughts of the action. Casio weighted actions do have a justified bad rep though and I don't know a single serious player who uses Casio weighted action on stage (unless paid for/ endorsed by Casio). Obviously some user is gonna search the internet and find somebody I'd consider good enough using a Casio in a live concert but that's no proof as many industry pros I know secretly tell me they use KAWAI DPs for home enjoyment while having to play Nord exclusively on Stage. I had to play Ragtime on a friends' Nord Stage 3 88 since that's what was on stage and it was like fighting with the instrument... very unnatural key action for me.

The ES920 action is lighter than many acoustic pianos (not all though) and lighter than e.g the Roland FP plastic and Yamaha 88 wood keys slab pianos but do take heart that even acoustic piano actions varies in many parameters such as static weight/dynamic weight (key press initial touch weight/maximum weight to depress a key fully). I'm classically trained but I'm not a classical pianist rather Ragtime, Jazz, Latin and Pop/Rock and even when playing more demanding pieces and rags such as Zez Confrey or my own stuff I have no issues whatsoever, only an occasional artificial feel which is not common. and sometimes I'd even prefer it over my parents' acoustic upright "Essex by Steinway" which action I have grown to dislike, or the "YAMAHA U3" which I teach on at work which is a very light touch IMO.

Sum it up, action is like sound very subjective some people prefer different things and that's fine like it's most often advised there's no replacement for testing all the candidate tools you feel would do the job best FOR YOU... it's like a taste in cars for that matter it's not only about the car specs in absolute terms, but is it reliable?, comfortable?, other personal considerations etc. etc.

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Thanks Chummy : your preference for ES920 is as a stage piano, makes a lot of sense - i can certainly see why you like it.


If I may point out,The OP was looking for a practice instrument for advanced classical. As such it was suggested that if he goes for a slab, he should pay for the permanent stand and pedals, in other words- make it "Non-portable". (and Yes, I know the ES920 has these options). The Kawai CA and KDP series, Casio 770/870 series or Yamaha Arius/Clavinova series ) - are all not intended for stage performance - they are not really portable : An important difference. But they are more solid on the floor.


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Those upright digital pianos (non-portable) are less value for the money ( especially considering OP budget is quite low) because one pays for the furniture .. the whole thing costs more than a slab to get the same keyboard action and sound engine therefore not really worth it even including separate stand and pedal those are pretty cheap and if 2nd hand it's dirt cheap.. unless he wants to up the budget by a lot and then for serious classical I'd say only an acoustic anyway for that amount of money... I don't know of any furniture digital piano in the 1-1.5K that gives a better bang for buck than a slab keyboard.

Plus the bonus in having a slab on a stand is that you keep the option of moving it if you want/need to eventually, and it's also easier to relocate around the house.

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I'm by no means a pro in these matters, but I do have the Kawai MP-11SE and can only join in to the choir of praise for the lovely action it's got.

But since it's over the budget of the OP, it might be worth checking out the little brother of the MP-11SE, namely the MP-7SE. I happen to own this one as well and use it quite frequently when in our summer house where I keep it. It's got a very "light" and nice action and compares rather well to the MP-11SE IMHO. And - it's just a small stretch ower your budget as far as I recall. Think I bought mine (last year) at just below 1200 €.

Enjoy your search. It's a lot of fun!!!


Peter
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A "Fully Weighted Keyboard"

That is way too subjective. Why not take time and try what you can afford? As many as possible. I prefer the Kawai Grand Feel xx keyboards. Others? No way. Find out what you like. Possibly explore used units.

It is all a very personal decision. One that in time, you may decide to sell what you have and find something better.

Oh. And Have Fun ...


Jon ...

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A Tired, Retired, Dreamer ...
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