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Sidokar, that's very interesting but where do you find info about the style of a specific composer? Suppose I were to take a lesser-known composer from the Baroque, how would I figure this out?

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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Sidokar, that's very interesting but where do you find info about the style of a specific composer? Suppose I were to take a lesser-known composer from the Baroque, how would I figure this out?

Qazsedcft, Are you talking about the ornamentation or more generally about the way the composer is writing music ?


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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Sidokar, that's very interesting but where do you find info about the style of a specific composer? Suppose I were to take a lesser-known composer from the Baroque, how would I figure this out?

Qazsedcft, Are you talking about the ornamentation or more generally about the way the composer is writing music ?
I was asking about ornamentation in relation to your post.

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Thank you, Sidokar, for the detailed historical account. I don't know what it means for a trill to be cadential (as opposed to non-cadential?), but now that I have the term, I can research that for myself (so that I can identify it in other contexts as well).


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Originally Posted by bennevis
Normally, when coming to a trill from the note above (the auxiliary note), it's better to start it from the principal note rather than repeat the auxiliary note again immediately. I agree with your teacher here.

If the trill was approached from any other note in Mozart, I'd play it starting from the auxiliary note.

It's nice to see at least one person agreeing with my teacher :-) I'll tell him about this discussion and see if he changes his mind or not.


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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Sidokar, that's very interesting but where do you find info about the style of a specific composer? Suppose I were to take a lesser-known composer from the Baroque, how would I figure this out?

Qazsedcft, Are you talking about the ornamentation or more generally about the way the composer is writing music ?
I was asking about ornamentation in relation to your post.

OK, I understand your question. There are different indications that can be used. Many composers left written instructions or even theory books. At the time theorists were also composers anyway. That is the case for example for Frescobaldi, Diruta, Purcell, Rameau, Couperin... There are a lot of materials being published on the subject.

Secondly some composers did write in a number of ornaments into their score rather than using signs. In fact in early baroque very few signs were actually used. Musicians would know where to put ornaments, that be vocalists or luth, viola, keyboard players ....

For composers who did not write anything nor have detailed out the ornaments, one has to refer to the usual practice or the specific period in the country. So for example for late renaissance or early baroque one can use the directions given by Diruta, Merulo, or later on by Monteverdi or Frescobaldi.

What is important is to understand how the ornaments fits within the style of the composer, assuming one is interested by the historical style.

But during the classical period, the number of signs started to reduce and get standardized, so the issue becomes quite limited. There are a number of clocks that we have with Haydn music as well which have been used to determine how his ornaments should be played.

Of course you have people who compiled and give summary views usually by period/country. There is plenty of litterature on the subject. Now to be honnest most amateurs play only a few composers. For the baroque, it would be essentially Bach, Scarlatti, Haendel, Rameau may be. Few people will play Froberger, Frescolbaldi, Couperin, Chambonnieres or more exotic composers. So the question gets quite narrowed down.

So I think a few basic rules plus whatever written indications are available (the famous Bach table of ornaments, or Purcell table, Rameau) gives a start base which is good enough for beginners amateurs.


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Thanks again Sidokar! Indeed, most likely I will never need that info but I was curious. I should probably start by reading the treatises by CPE Bach and Couperin first.

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I'm reporting back after a conversation with my piano teacher (as I promised to dogperson). I told him about this thread and he agrees that starting the trill on the upper note F# is also valid. If I interpreted his words correctly, he doesn't think it's a big deal to choose to start it on the main note (the E) in this case (especially because you're coming from the F#), and it's more of a personal choice.

One thing he noted, and which I hadn't realized, is that there's a rhythm difference between the two versions:

If you start it on the E and play, E F# E F# followed by E D E, the first four notes fit into the first half of the 1/4 note as a "1 e & a," while the the last 3 notes (the turn), fit into the second half of the 1/4 note as a triplet. So that timing difference is quite noticeable to the ear and adds some interesting (at least to me and to him) twist to it. This also makes it a bit more challenging to play (for a beginner, of course).

If you start on the F#, you play 8 notes in total (with the turn), rather than 7, which means they can all be equally spaced.


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Originally Posted by Talão
If you start it on the E and play, E F# E F# followed by E D E, the first four notes fit into the first half of the 1/4 note as a "1 e & a," while the the last 3 notes (the turn), fit into the second half of the 1/4 note as a triplet."

Whatever note I start on and how many are in the trill, I would be inclined to make the notes equally spaced. Remember that it's an ornament so playing notes that fit exactly with the beats or half beats may sound a little too planned or mechanical.

I don't think that a measured trill is necessarily the only choice although it is one choice.

Regards,

Last edited by BruceD; 04/03/22 01:03 AM.

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Originally Posted by BruceD
Whatever note I start on and how many are in the trill, I would be inclined to make the notes equally spaced. Remember that it's an ornament so playing notes that fit exactly with the beats or half beats may sound a little too planned or mechanical.

I don't think that a measured trill is necessarily the only choice although it is one choice.

Yes. I see now that, the way I wrote it, it reads like a recipe/prescription and that's not what I meant to imply. I understand that not all trills are measured. That's just the way I'm looking at it at the moment. It works better for me, at my current level and learning style, to make things precise so that I know what's coming. With more experience and practice, fluidity and on-the-spot flexibility should improve.


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