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I was just chatting with the manager of a Steinway store and got an interesting earful about hybrids. He's a long time piano tech, self-described as "very high level." Masters in music but not in piano.
He slammed hybrids as "a gimmick," arguing that "the bump" -- i.e. letoff -- has nothing whatsoever to do with sound production, and having the action there is meaningless and any pianist at more than an amateur level would find zero value in a hybrid.
My girlfriend was with me and already was being enormously patient as we had this conversation, but I had to see it through.
"A one-dimensional variable is the only output of a piano action: hammer velocity. The combination of frictions, inertias, and force ratios in the action creates the experience of your control of the production of those hammer velocities. Assuming accurate translation of that velocity into sound -- which is where you CAN run into trouble -- there is no difference between playing an acoustic grand and a hybrid, and the experience is massively different from playing a keyboard with a simplified action. I have seen professional pianists use hybrids as their at-home practice instrument."
We went over to a piano action model, where he again tried his argument but I was patient as I asked him to clarify each point. After a while he relented and began attacking the sound production instead, saying "square waves from a digital source can never match true sine waves from an acoustic source." That makes no sense, but it did leave me feeling that his dismissal of the hybrid as a gimmick was an unsubstantiable sales pitch. I found this distressing and in poor taste, whether it was deliberately misleading or just revealing of a lack of understanding of what supposedly was his profession.
Point is, I guess, that there are salesmen out there who will mislead buyers into false beliefs about hybrids. Beware!
(I'm also a hobby faceter and jeweler, and it reminded me of conversations I've tried to have at jewelry stores. They do not go well, because I want to discuss the interesting science and skills that go into jewelry, but they want to preserve the mystique that helps them make money. Those purposes are at odds, and we invariably walk away as smiling sworn enemies.)
Kawai RX-5 BLAK, Kawai Novus NV10s Working on: Bach Partita #2, Schubert Klavierstucke 2, Scriabin 8/12 Next up: Chopin Impromptu #3, Schubert Op 90 #3, Mendelssohn "Lost Illusions."
That makes no sense, but it did leave me feeling that his dismissal of the hybrid as a gimmick was an unsubstantiable sales pitch. I found this distressing and in poor taste, whether it was deliberately misleading or just revealing of a lack of understanding of what supposedly was his profession.
Where do I start?!
Okay, in the beginning there was Adam & Eve; he ate from the forbidding fruit and here we are, killing, stealing, hating, and constantly lying to each other…..
Is there a certain lack of knowledge and perhaps some trauma caused by a past experience with a very-bad “digital” that led some acoustic-lovers down the path of constantly belittling and/or even dismissing the “digital?” Yes!
But that is not the whole picture, and, as things are today, it’s not just a lack of understanding, and/or lack of experience with hybrids, but also a deliberately misleading agenda; devised in order to sell you that over-priced Steinway and make you feel good about it; whilst influencing you to further develop your own dislike of the hybrid instrument, “it’s a gimmick,” and subsequently turning into a zombie that shows up here saying things like, “hybrids are dead and the same,” despite never ever having played one.
Incidentally, Steinway is the worst at this (for obvious reasons); they said NO to the future and are now stuck in their own hand-made past; which, it seems, they cannot escape. So what do they do? Attack the future, and hope to god that people keep buying their “uniquely-hand-made” BS!
P.S.
I saw an interview with Steinway’s top honcho, and though he was “polite,” he spoke with that same condescending tone; not only towards digitals, but also in general, towards other acoustic pianos. Yes, they still want us to believe that Steinway is simply the best. Newsflash: it isn’t! And just out of principle, I’d buy a Pearl River over a Steinway any day of the week; even if I could afford the overpriced Steinway!
Steinway is definitely not the best and only got to monopolize the market because the 2 WWs decimated so many piano makers and couldn’t mass produce the way Steinway could …..
I would love to own an acoustic, have loads of money to make it a grand, etc. etc. my world and concrete living means a hybrid. Are hybrids getting better and better, yes. As good as an acoustic? Based on people’s experiences in this forum I am eyeing the Kawai NV5S and hope to get to try one soon.
Audio engineer here. If your digital piano is producing square waves, you will take it straight to the technician because that is pure distortion. Loudspeakers are famously good at making sine waves.
The main benefit of an acoustic, I don’t need to reiterate here, is the resonant feedback of the instrument and how the sound interacts with its body as it emanates outward. Do you need this to learn or practice effectively? No. But it’s part of the magic that might get you to sit down and practice in the first place, and it makes you feel connected enough with the instrument to feel inspired to perform and/or create something.
The industry has nailed making digitals sound indistinguishable from the real thing to the listener, but they haven’t nailed reproducing all those things that connect the player to the instrument. That said, they’re darn close, and the next few years are going to be interesting.
Also, we don’t have to bash Steinways here to make a point. A sleazy salesperson trying to sell Steinways with misinformation and FUD, well, that’s another story entirely.
We are approaching that fourth dimension you talk about, and when that happens, poof goes the acoustic!
As you correctly pointed out, we are ‘very close,’ and I would add that the hybrid is more than just a practice tool, for it can be inviting, fun, a pleasure to play & come back for some more, too.
I hear things, I tell ya, I hear things coming from my tiny P-515 that are truly amazing; and most certainly more than the sum of its speakers.
Are you for the soundboard, or do you think it’s a gimmick?
I keep hearing good things about the P-515! What kind of black magic is I. That thing? I haven’t tried it yet.
Totally used to be on the acoustic-is-dead bandwagon, but then I found a dealer that stocks nearly all the digitals and uprights and grands you could want to try, and spent a few hours trying them all head-to-head.
To me, the soundboard does lift pianos like the Kawai CA99 and NV5 to the top of the digital pack, but it still doesn’t replace the feel of the resonances under your fingers and in the cabinet. That said, whatever gets you playing and makes you feel connected, it’s not a gimmick if it works! Personally, I ordered a Kawai K-500 AURES, an acoustic married to a digital with soundboard speakers, to get the best of both worlds (albeit at a costly premium). It will be a while before it finally arrives.
There’s still a big difference in feel while playing the AURES between digital and acoustic mode, though to the listener it’s indistinguishable. Like with any instrument, it comes down to how it makes you feel, and I was after something that felt living and breathing under my hands; everything else sounds like a keyboard to me. But that’s just me! This is why everyone says to just go and play what you’re thinking of buying and decide what works for you.
The main benefit of an acoustic, I don’t need to reiterate here, is the resonant feedback of the instrument and how the sound interacts with its body as it emanates outward.
Key point: This has the effect of having a fuller more resonant sound in acoustic pianos when pedaling. With undamped strings, strings will resonate at their fundamental or overtone frequencies when other nearby strings are sounded.
Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.
What is the gram down-weight on a Novus 10 at middle C vs a Casio GP510?
I like it set light around 44 grams on a real Steinway D.
Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.
It's great to hear all your enthusiastic reviews about the NV10S.
I currently own a Kawai CS11 (GF2 action). Over the last few months, I started working on controlling dynamics (I'm a beginner), and I became aware that I could not maintain a steady dynamic on simple Hanon exercises, or precisely ramp from e.g. p to mf across an octave. My piano teacher helped diagnose that the problem lay not with my technique, but with the piano.
To better understand the issues, I measured the piano's velocity profile. I did so by placing a weight at the edge of each white key (holding the key in the up position), and then letting the key drop once the weight was in place. I used three weights (100g, 150g, 200g) [1] on each of the white keys [2], and measured the resulting key velocity using standard midi software [3] on a laptop (connected to the CS11 via USB). To ensure accurate data, each key was tested 3 times with each weight.
The midi data files were then analysed via a Python program (which I wrote) to process the midi data files and to generate figures.
Here is an example of the resulting figures. As a rough guide, a velocity of 25 corresponds to p, so you can see that the larger of the velocities at 100g correspond roughly to pp, and those at 150g to p. The inconsistencies at 100g are severe (e.g. many keys do not respond at all), making it essentially impossible to maintain a uniform dynamic at pp. A steady dynamic at p is also very hard for me to maintain over much of the keyboard. Similarly, steady ramps from e.g. p to mf are interrupted by noticeable irregularities which are obvious to other listeners (e.g. piano teacher, technician).
Recent replacement of the slip-tape and contact board by a Kawai-directed technician has not resolved the issue. I am still in discussion with Kawai on possible next steps.
In any case, I'm thinking of upgrading to the NV5S or NV10S because of their acoustic actions. But I'd like to be sure that they do not suffer from similar inconsistencies. If anyone has the NV10S (or a newer Kawai digital, such as the CA99 [GF3]) and would be willing to collect the data, I can assist: if you provide the midi files (one file for each weight trial), I can process them into velocity profiles (just DM me). These profiles can be useful to existing owners as well, since they are a way to quantitatively check how a piano is performing.
Cheers,
Gravitino
[1] I used a "Truweigh" 100g weight, which has just the right dimensions to sit nicely on the white keys. I superglued a 50g or 100g weight on top of the 100g weight to create a 150g or 200g weight. I found that heavier weights (e.g. 300g) (created in the same manner) "bounce" when the key drops, leading to unreliable measurements.
[2] Only the white keys were profiled due to the practical difficulty of placing weights securely on the black keys.
[3] I used Pianoteq. A free trial version is available, and works just fine with the white keys (IIRC). It records standard midi files.
I just wanted to provide a capstone to my NV-10 adventure. After almost exactly 4 years of ownership, I'm moving on. The piano movers came by to take it to its new home and owners. And I'm happy to say 1) the piano looks just as good going out as it did coming it (pristine); and 2) I still love it, the NV-10 is such a great instrument. I'm so glad it's going to a new home where it will be played and enjoyed.
I thought I would go back to my first post in this thread, dated Feb 4, 2018:
Originally Posted by Gombessa
A local US dealer got a Novus in and I spent a good two hours playing it yesterday.
2. The action is truly a grand action. I have some regular experience on grands now and I will say it is more or less indistinguishable from a GL-30 or GX. What it doesn't feel like is a light, airy action on an Shigeru or Bosendorfer 214/280. In terms of hybrids, I think this is truly authentic, and the new gold standard by a country mile. Could it be better? Sure, but it is like the MP11 is to slabs (nothing else on the mass market comes close right now).
Yep, along with the NV-10S, I'd say it's still the gold standard for DP/hybrid actions. And I think even back then when I first tried the NV-10, I knew what my dream piano and ultimate goal was, as it's mentioned in my very first post!
Originally Posted by Gombessa
3. Feel of the pivot point, or playing in the back of the keys is very similar to the GF2 action or Yamaha Grand Touch. As expected it's a very long pivot, and I don't feel I need anything more in this respect.
The pivot length is actually longer than the acoustic grand in the treble end (and a shorter at the bass end). Definitely one suited to a "large acoustic grand."
Originally Posted by Gombessa
6. I've spent a similar amount of time with the Avent Grands before and like Jobert, I was surprised to not really care for the action. It is stiffer than a typical Yamaha Grand like a C3X, the keydip felt shallow, and I came away thinking it felt way more like an NU1 action than any grand I have ever played.
Looking back on this post, I realized that Yamaha has always been a yardstick of sorts for me. I first started looking for a hybrid by shopping the AvantGrands, and comparing them to a C3. When I first started looking for an acoustic, I began by shopping the Yamaha C3X-TA2, and went from there.
Well, in any case, it's been an amazing ride. I hope this thread continues to see some activity, and I'll certainly keep up with it as it does, as hopefully NV-10 alums are welcome
The real point of interest here is that when only considering the quality and feel the action, I honestly didn't not feel any major *improvement* until hitting the flagship tiers. The Millennium III is really world class, IMHO!
Beware though, for some reason people here seem to get really uptight about anyone who uses them
As to MIDI, you should be able to set multiple listener apps, so you can have your PTQ PC route the MIDI to the Pi/Arduino running the visualizer. I wonder if you can even utilize both USB and DIN on the NV at the same time??
