2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
40 members (brennbaer, aliaksej, clothearednincompo, AJB, aguia77, Burkhard, CharlesXX, bxrdad1, Animisha, 10 invisible), 2,049 guests, and 262 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
I didn’t have a tech on my piano 😮
You should though, I got lucky LOL.

I am 99% sure the KK is out!

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
J
Jameezy Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
I am having the Yamaha inspected tomorrow by an independent tech! Even if I don't go for it in the end, worth the $150 just to make the decision that much more even.

I think the Kawai is in third currently, as it is the most expensive, and I like playing the W. Schimmel at least equally (both different in a few respects), if not a little more.

Biggest thing for me I suppose is going for the 23y used but bigger piano, versus a brand new one that is slightly smaller. Both seem to be high quality instruments at similar price points, that could fit my needs. Space is not an issue (though any bigger than the C5 might be a little too loud for the room).

I guess in the end, it's all about personal preference between the two. The Yamaha seemed a little harder to control, the action felt a little flimsy at times, but definitely had a bigger bass sound.

It's funny, I think I prefer the W. Schimmel touch, and the Yamaha sound and look (not crazy about the orange harp in the Schimmels). If only there was a way to combine them!

I play mostly Jazz, at an intermediate level. Not a professional, and not doing a lot of complex passage work with the L hand (mostly walking bass lines and open chords), so the lack of big bass would not necessarily be a deal-breaker, and the W. Schimmel bass is certainly nice for its size. There seems to be no substitute for larger pianos however when it comes to the bottom register, no matter how good a scale design a smaller piano is.

Appreciate all the answers thus far. If anyone has any other suggestions on make/models worth considering in the 6'-ish range at $25-$35K price range I'm all ears. I have heard good things about Estonia 190, but haven't tried one yet, though it might be a little more than stated price limit.

Last edited by Jameezy; 05/15/22 11:24 AM.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,016
W
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,016
Others who know the market can advise on the C5 price. Apart from that (maybe a big that) and dealers margin, the C5 should depreciate less rapidly. Are you planning for a tech report on the C5?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
J
Jameezy Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
Yes, getting it inspected this week. I thought about resale value as well, thinking that if I have a more robust budget in the future and more specialized musical needs I could upgrade, and it may be easier to sell the Yamaha and recover relatively more from it since it has already fallen past the steepest part of the depreciation curve.

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 902
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 902
Jameezy, I know this is a lot of money to spend, and it is very reasonable to have doubts and to want to do one’s homework. It is a big decision.

It seems like you are leaning toward the C5. If you do decide on the C5, make sure it’s for the right reasons. Have it checked out by an independent technician, and convince yourself on repeat playing that you do prefer the touch/tone to the other options. To me, the fact that it is 23 years old means that unless you get an independent tech inspection on it, buying it could be more of a ‘gamble’ than the new W Schimmel (which you are concerned about because there is relatively little information about it compared with Yamaha C series pianos). I also think the C5 seems to be priced a bit high for a 23 year old instrument and I would think you could get the price down a bit more.

With regard to the W Schimmel, despite the paucity of testimonials on this site and some others, or YouTube reviews, or what have you, I really would not be overly concerned about the build quality or materials. I find this quote from Larry Fine to be very salient here:

‘During the last half of the 20th century, a great many pianos, especially low-end instruments manufactured in the U.S. and in developing countries, had significant defects that made separating good instruments from bad relatively easy. That is no longer the case. Due to globalization and the computerization of manufacturing, virtually all pianos now sold in the West are competently made and without major defects, and the differences between them are increasingly subtle and subjective. While it’s still clear that high-end pianos are better than entry-level ones, comparisons of instruments that are closer in price are less conclusive, and much more subject to the whims of personal preference, how well the pianos have been prepared for sale, room acoustics, and so forth.’

It’s easy to get bogged down in the list of specs, but such information is only as good as one’s ability to interpret how these factors will affect your satisfaction with the instrument, and my opinion is that the spec lists provide almost no information about how satisfied you will be with it. My feelings about testimonials and reviews are similar. How does one evaluate the relevance of a review or testimonial of a random person? I think the PianoBuyer reviews are excellent and provide valuable information, but even those reviews are best read with an understanding of the background of the writer, the intended audience, and what those factors mean for you and your purchasing decision.

It seems like you’ve done a good job looking at the pianos in your area and narrowing things down. It also seems like you’re ready to have the search finish and bring home your piano. Play the instruments a little more, get an independent tech to evaluate the C5, think about the various factors important to you (touch, tone, cost, etc), and then have confidence that your decision is the best one for you.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
WHY does nobody read?

Jameezy literally said that it’s getting inspected tomorrow!

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
J
Jameezy Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
all good! I’ve been a little redundant myself LOL

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,188
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,188
I apologize if this offends anyone, but it's simply an observation made here again that I observe ad nauseam. The Wilhelm Schimmel is a traditionally made piano made in a factory that Schimmel has owned and used to build pianos for 19+ years. First Vogel, then re-branded as Wilhelm Schimmel, the scale designs also come from Schimmel design (SP182) that dates back to the mid-1990's. This isn't a new brand and it isn't logical that a piano maker has to make it to 2nd generation status before they are "safe". When you look at other industries, including the piano industry, its often when a brand becomes established that they start either resting on their laurels or exploiting the brand name for riskier profitable measures. Boeing did this, Baldwin's old management did this prior to the bankruptcy back in ~2000, the most famous piano brand did this in the past, off and on (though the mere mention of the brand would derail this thread), as have quite a few of the established brands that have a lengthy history.

It makes more sense to me when someone doubts composite parts, modern materials, new manufacturing methods - yet those are often greeted warmly by the general public (it's more often industry insiders that resist change).

If the W.Schimmel remains a top choice for you, you would not be out of line to request more information about the sourcing of parts to see if that was worthy of discussion, but logically, truthfully, in any other world of normalcy, a New piano of good reputation is less of a risk than a 23 year old, used piano also of good reputation, yes?

That minor rant aside, supply chain issues, labor shortages and human behaviors have driven prices of name brand pianos way up in most markets around the US. A year ago, that would have been a very high price in my market for a 1999 C5 in excellent condition. Today, it hardly surprises me. More people have become impatient and that drives up prices, especially among the most recognizable brands.

That does affect the value quotient of your decision, however, a good C5 is a good instrument. If you like it best and it checks out, it still could be the best decision for you.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 902
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 902
Originally Posted by probably blue
WHY does nobody read?

Jameezy literally said that it’s getting inspected tomorrow!

If this was directed at me, I do read. But I started writing my post before the OP posted that he was having the piano inspected. While I saw after posting that he was going to have the piano inspected, I didn’t feel the need to go back and revise in light of this new information. Just glad that he will be doing so!

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
J
Jameezy Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
Some very thoughtful and helpful responses here, thank you all.

I think the decision between the two pianos is an apples and oranges situation, where comparing a 5’10” piano to a 6’7” piano will never be totally comparable.

I think I at least have some reassurance that they are both great pianos, and I think either will serve me well, based on my experiences with them in the showrooms and plenty of comments here and throughout the web.

That said, I think I am leaning towards the W. Schimmel, as I think I prioritize touch and having a new piano highly, and the tone, while not quite as resonant as the Yamaha in the bass, is still excellent. I can always upgrade to a larger piano in the future if I feel over time that I want more than the 5’10” can provide, but going from my current digital piano to an acoustic of this size will still feel like an enormous step up.

I am planning three more trips this week to the galleries, one at each to sit down with the respective pianos one last time (have only been at the W. Schimmel once so far, so we’ll see if the revisit holds up), and a third where I bring my checkbook smile

Now I just have to rip off the band-aid and decide if I want an apple or an orange!

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
Originally Posted by Sgisela
Originally Posted by probably blue
WHY does nobody read?

Jameezy literally said that it’s getting inspected tomorrow!

If this was directed at me, I do read. But I started writing my post before the OP posted that he was having the piano inspected. While I saw after posting that he was going to have the piano inspected, I didn’t feel the need to go back and revise in light of this new information. Just glad that he will be doing so!
Sorry, that happens to me sometimes

Last edited by probably blue; 05/15/22 12:35 PM.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,810
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,810
Jameezy, I'm glad you're getting the C5 inspected. I don't know if the tech would be able to look at the Schimmel, but you could certainly ask for their opinion, esp re the touch since you like the Schimmel better in that regard.

I really appreciated reading Sam's comments. I also was thinking that the price for the C5 sounded appropriate in the context of 2022 weird pricing.

On issues related to touch:
Re the touch of the Yamaha.... I think touch is super important, and I don't think I would sacrifice touch for length.

Having said that, when I bought my C2 (2000, so almost the same age as your C5), I bought from a private seller who hadn't really maintained it. I had it inspected, and the tech said he would recommend regulation and voicing. I used that in my bargaining on the price.

When I bought the C2, I already liked the touch, so I bought it without reservations in that regard. But after it had been in my house for about a month, I had the regulation and voicing done. Well, when my tech got done with it.... OH MY! It was amazing, the improvement. As I said, I liked the touch when I bought it, but I absolutely LOVE the touch on it now.

I can't remember how much I paid for that work, maybe $600? So you might ask the tech what s/he would recommend in terms of improving the touch, and get an estimate for the work. Oh, well, and you also want to ask the dealer what, if any, work they have done on the C5 since they got it (beyond tuning).

On issues related to ease of later reselling:
All things being equal, I would expect a used Yamaha to be easier to resell than a Schimmel. But all things are not equal (they never are)... I think the Yamaha C3 (or G3) might the easiest piano to resell, but I would guess that there might be potentially fewer buyers for a C5 because of its length. The Schimmel is maybe an easier length to sell.... So I might almost think that these two details kind of cancel each other out in terms of which would be easiest to resell if you wanted to later.

I could be wrong though, and my guesses about the ease of selling a larger used piano could be off. After all, a used Yamaha grand is probably always going to sell well just because of the Yamaha name and reputation.

Anyway, I will look forward to hearing what you learn from the tech's inspection!

smile

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 05/15/22 01:06 PM.

Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 556
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 556
I would lean toward the Schimmel. It is new and not 23 years old like the C5.

I wouldn't worry too much about the plate color - it is not that noticeable unless you are looking into the piano.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
Tomorrow you will know!

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
J
Jameezy Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
Took another lap today. I think Yamah is the winner, but by a hair.

The W. Schimmel sounds amazing in the mid-range and treble, better than the Yamaha. It definitely has more character, more unique sound, great singing quality and sustain.

Yamaha wins in low-end by a lot though, and touch is better w Yamaha. Touch is good w the W. Schimmel, but the Yamaha plays like butter. I have more control w the Yamaha. I attribute the improved touch and low end primarily to longer size (8” longer), but obviously a lot of differences in design. The overall quality of the Yamaha is a little “vanilla” compared to the W. Schimmel, but I guess that will make it a little more versatile too.

The Yamaha dealer is actually the same as the Kawai, and offered to bring both into my house for 24hrs free of charge to hear both in my living room, as long as I commit to buying one of them. I thought this was a pretty solid sales tactic, even though I already put the Kawai at the bottom I might take him up on it in case the Yamaha sounds too big once it’s in my living room.

Tech had to reschedule. I think in the end a 23 year old Yamaha C5 in excellent condition isnt too old, and I’ll hopefully get a good 15-20 years before it needs much work on top of regular maintenance. There seems to be some compromise with either option unfortunately, but there is no piano for $30K that will not have a compromise of some sort.

Will make my decision by the end of the week hopefully!

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,659
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,659
Originally Posted by Jameezy
There seems to be some compromise with either option unfortunately, but there is no piano for $30K that will not have a compromise of some sort.
I think that's the correct way of looking at buying a piano, and I might even go higher than $30K. You seem to have carefully noticed the pros and cons of each piano.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,128
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by Jameezy
Took another lap today. I think Yamah is the winner, but by a hair.

The W. Schimmel sounds amazing in the mid-range and treble, better than the Yamaha. It definitely has more character, more unique sound, great singing quality and sustain.

Yamaha wins in low-end by a lot though, and touch is better w Yamaha. Touch is good w the W. Schimmel, but the Yamaha plays like butter. I have more control w the Yamaha. I attribute the improved touch and low end primarily to longer size (8” longer), but obviously a lot of differences in design. The overall quality of the Yamaha is a little “vanilla” compared to the W. Schimmel, but I guess that will make it a little more versatile too.

The Yamaha dealer is actually the same as the Kawai, and offered to bring both into my house for 24hrs free of charge to hear both in my living room, as long as I commit to buying one of them. I thought this was a pretty solid sales tactic, even though I already put the Kawai at the bottom I might take him up on it in case the Yamaha sounds too big once it’s in my living room.

Tech had to reschedule. I think in the end a 23 year old Yamaha C5 in excellent condition isnt too old, and I’ll hopefully get a good 15-20 years before it needs much work on top of regular maintenance. There seems to be some compromise with either option unfortunately, but there is no piano for $30K that will not have a compromise of some sort.

Will make my decision by the end of the week hopefully!

Congratulations on your progress in making a choice between the Yamaha C5 and the W. Schimmel!

I may be biased, but I'm a huge fan of Yamaha acoustic pianos. The reason being, is I have an older Yamaha C7 (ca 1978) and I absolutely love it, despite some normal wear. It sounds good, plays good, and I'm impressed with it every time I play it! Heck, I'm impressed every time I look at it, because it makes me want to play it!

It could use some regulation and voicing, but it still sounds good and plays good. A little bright in the upper treble, but not "glass breaking" bright. It is mellower in the mid section, and the low bass is fantastic!

Don't know much about the W. Schimmel, but I'll bet the Yamaha C5 is a gem of a piano!

All the best!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,390
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,390
Agree to the Yamaha, and say— instead of moving the two pianos into your house for a trial, knock $1000 off the price of the Yamaha.

Just be sure you like the treble, and the sustain in the treble, well enough. Sometimes people get blown out of the water by big pianos with big bass, but the rest of the piano is not able to keep up with it.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
J
Jameezy Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 33
Appreciate the words of encouragement!

Like I mentioned, the W. Schimmel definitely has a more beautiful mid and treble, but the Yamaha is still good, and overall I think I will be more unsatisfied in the long run with the lack of bass in the W. Schimmel than the more bland middle and treble on the Yamaha, especially since the Yamaha action is so so so nice.

Call me crazy, but for my purposes as a hobbyist playing in my living room, touch trumps tone (so long as tone is good enough, which the Yamaha is). Yamaha wins touch, and has the low end, so going with my gut.

In the end, pros and cons to both pianos, and can’t have it ALL with $30K budget haha. There is a reason $100K pianos exist LOL.

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,834
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,834
Originally Posted by Jameezy
Call me crazy, but for my purposes as a hobbyist playing in my living room, touch trumps tone (so long as tone is good enough, which the Yamaha is). Yamaha wins touch, and has the low end, so going with my gut.

I'm definitely crazy too, in that case (and folks here have called me out on it smile )

But who cares? In the end, piano is about what brings you joy. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with enjoying the feel the action, versus (subjective) minuscule differences in tone.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Damper noise
by TimM_980 - 06/29/22 12:03 AM
Czerny availablility in large print?
by geopianoincanada - 06/28/22 11:53 PM
Wound bass strings all the way to C4
by TimM_980 - 06/28/22 11:44 PM
Alternatives to MainStage for Live Performances?
by Gord Webster - 06/28/22 11:29 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,720
Posts3,204,070
Members105,669
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5