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PG ----- I think it was a response to maybe me, and anybody else that made a comment about for example a hybrid and/or digital can be (or is) just as good as an acoustic in both sound and/or key mechanism behaviour - depending on application and sort of music being played etc. Like many others here, I have played premium grand pianos by myself, inside an empty auditorium, and recording the sounds, and listening to the sounds. And I am going to say to Taushi - something along the lines of 'are you kidding me?!' ----- as in ---- I know that acoustic grand pianos, upright acoustics, digitals, hybrids etc ----- are all good. You can go good stuff on all of them. It's only when you need particular extra performance ----- is when you will consider the same thing we all know -- such as suitable or right tool for a job. And no Taushi -- one particular acoustic instrument might not necessarily match the tone or voice of some other instrument, or some particular singer, or some particular style of music. In some cases, the sound from a particular upright piano could match somebody's voice, like a glove. And not all pianos (acoustics, digitals, hybrids) have they same key mechanism actions. And not everybody needs to feel that the particular key mechanism action that you prefer or really like is what they really prefer or really like, or is comfortable/happy with.

But - back to the root/tonic once again - which is --- the answer to is hybrid close the the 'real' thing? That can be self-answered ----- by hopping down to a music store. Or driving/or flying to a town or city that has a good range of pianos (hybrid, acoustic etc). And there ----- one will be able to try, and there lies various answers, which includes the answer to the OP's question. Try before buy (for oneself) is always recommended.

And also - the comment from Taushi (and/or Will) about Lara6683 being not remarkable, and not gifted etc --- I'll only make a serious response if they claim for themselves that their own piano skills and musical abilities actually match or surpass her piano skills and musical abilities.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
And also - the comment from Taushi (and/or Will) about Lara6683 being not remarkable, and not gifted etc --- I'll only make a serious response if they claim for themselves that their own piano skills and musical abilities actually match or surpass her piano skills and musical abilities.

You're perfectly entitled to your view that 'Lara6683' is remarkable. You have made this clear a really quite large number of times now on a variety of threads. That's great, but perhaps a thread on her specifically is a better idea?

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
You can go good stuff on all of them.

Typo..... 'do'

Will ..... I got the point across now ... to you. So will leave it at that for now.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by SouthPark
You can go good stuff on all of them.

Typo..... 'do'

Will ..... I got the point across now ... to you. So will leave it at that for now.

I can state with confidence that my own son is better than this youtuber. I can state with confidence that my aunt, a piano teacher, is better. I can state with confidence that my uncle, who is a pianist and conductor and has performed with the LSO, is better.

Referencing them would also be more relevant since my son learns on a hybrid but gets lessons on an acoustic, while my uncle owns both. But this is all besides the point: if people want to ask about them that's great, but I'm not going to sideline topics asking people to go looking for them on youtube.

I have now answered your question and will also leave it at that, so perhaps this thread can return to topic.

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Why are we delving into a who’s better conversation?
Admittedly, I did not read all 11 pages of this thread.

However, comments like this seem very subjective. Better at what? How?

I remember my piano juries. I was always better at dynamic expression, than say perhaps fingering technique. Does that make me a worse pianist?
Worse than who? Why?

Some folks are “better” at jazz or pop, than classical? Or perhaps they are just more prepared and/or comfortable. Does this make them better or worse as a musician? Perhaps just different.

As for the hybrid action….speaking as a new owner of the Kawai NV5S and frequent player of other acoustic pianos….it is close. The Millennium 3 action is a heavier one than either of the Yamahas I play (C3 and P22). I’m not sure I can explain it well, but it does seem like the hybrid hammer is hitting something more solid and less springy than a set of strings. I am not sure if that it an accurate description though. The hybrid is quite expressive (snd once the bushings wear a bit more, it will be quite nice -the keys are snug). Overall, I think the hybrid is a fine practice instrument.

Last edited by I. Bruton; 05/20/22 10:38 AM.

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Originally Posted by I. Bruton
Why are we delving into a who’s better conversation?

Yep. Sorry it came to that. But this is what prompted it:

Originally Posted by SouthPark
I'll only make a serious response if they claim for themselves that their own piano skills and musical abilities actually match or surpass her piano skills and musical abilities.

Agreed on the NV5S Millennium 3 action -it is really rather heavy compared even to a lot of uprights we've tried. But it's a proper action and therefore as you say very close to replicating an acoustic instrument.

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Originally Posted by I. Bruton
The Millennium 3 action is a heavier one than either of the Yamahas I play (C3 and P22). I’m not sure I can explain it well, but it does seem like the hybrid hammer is hitting something more solid and less springy than a set of strings. I am not sure if that it an accurate description though.

This is a pretty interesting observation. For one, because I've wondered it myself as well. But also, because I think there is a psychological aspect. With the escapement in an acoustic piano, the hammer should be detached from the keys when it hits the string (or cushioned stop rail, in the case of a Novus). So how does it feel like a more substantial stop? I think part of it may be because I don't have my hybrid set to the same volume as an acoustic piano, so the "thunk" of the action is more audible, and that impacts my feel.

As to tightness of the action, I do agree this has to do with the piano being new. FWIW, I have NEVER felt a more tight (as in precise, lacking side-to-side play/wobble, not as in uncomfortable) action than a new Yamaha C3X. It's like pushing down on a finely machined hunk of steel. But I've played C-series before and they certainly don't stay like that, they do loosen up.


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Originally Posted by I. Bruton
Why are we delving into a who’s better conversation?
Admittedly, I did not read all 11 pages of this thread.

True. But let’s kick this up a notch by getting past the lightweight gamer/movie music and establish this as the new “bar” by which keyboard playing is measured:



No room on that screen for a scrolling stream of comments and heart emoji!

Quote
Some folks are “better” at jazz or pop, than classical? Or perhaps they are just more prepared and/or comfortable. Does this make them better or worse as a musician? Perhaps just different.

Very well said. Most of the professional pianists and musicians I know have their favorite performers for a particular genre or composer, never a one-size-fits-all standard for everything. With perhaps a bias towards one’s own teacher (or pedagogical lineage) being a wholly understandable exception.

It does appear this thread is just chasing its horrendously lengthy tail, or we’re listening to the sound of one hand clapping. grin


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by I. Bruton
Why are we delving into a who’s better conversation?
Admittedly, I did not read all 11 pages of this thread.

True. But let’s kick this up a notch by getting past the lightweight gamer/movie music and establish this as the new “bar” by which keyboard playing is measured:



No room on that screen for a scrolling stream of comments and heart emoji!

Quote
Some folks are “better” at jazz or pop, than classical? Or perhaps they are just more prepared and/or comfortable. Does this make them better or worse as a musician? Perhaps just different.

Very well said. Most of the professional pianists and musicians I know have their favorite performers for a particular genre or composer, never a one-size-fits-all standard for everything. With perhaps a bias towards one’s own teacher (or pedagogical lineage) being a wholly understandable exception.

It does appear this thread is just chasing its horrendously lengthy tail, or we’re listening to the sound of one hand clapping. grin

I like my electric organs with far more buttons than that huh.... laugh


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Originally Posted by SouthPark
PG ----- I think it was a response to maybe me, and anybody else that made a comment about for example a hybrid and/or digital can be (or is) just as good as an acoustic in both sound and/or key mechanism behaviour - depending on application and sort of music being played etc. Like many others here, I have played premium grand pianos by myself, inside an empty auditorium, and recording the sounds, and listening to the sounds. And I am going to say to Taushi - something along the lines of 'are you kidding me?!' ----- as in ---- I know that acoustic grand pianos, upright acoustics, digitals, hybrids etc ----- are all good. You can go good stuff on all of them. It's only when you need particular extra performance ----- is when you will consider the same thing we all know -- such as suitable or right tool for a job. And no Taushi -- one particular acoustic instrument might not necessarily match the tone or voice of some other instrument, or some particular singer, or some particular style of music. In some cases, the sound from a particular upright piano could match somebody's voice, like a glove. And not all pianos (acoustics, digitals, hybrids) have they same key mechanism actions. And not everybody needs to feel that the particular key mechanism action that you prefer or really like is what they really prefer or really like, or is comfortable/happy with.

But - back to the root/tonic once again - which is --- the answer to is hybrid close the the 'real' thing? That can be self-answered ----- by hopping down to a music store. Or driving/or flying to a town or city that has a good range of pianos (hybrid, acoustic etc). And there ----- one will be able to try, and there lies various answers, which includes the answer to the OP's question. Try before buy (for oneself) is always recommended.

And also - the comment from Taushi (and/or Will) about Lara6683 being not remarkable, and not gifted etc --- I'll only make a serious response if they claim for themselves that their own piano skills and musical abilities actually match or surpass her piano skills and musical abilities.

This was, essentially, word salad. Opaque, nebulous, circular wording, that ignores the factual statements & doesn’t address the claims, to ultimately push your narrative. And the same sort of “we all know” statements, where you present your opinions as fact; an argumentum ad populum fallacy not even rooted in an actual majority consensus. The conversation was not about how digitals and acoustics “are all good” & “you can do good stuff on all of them”. I was very clear: A.) what you can do on an acoustic, you cannot do on a digital, as it pertains to extremely complex music of any genre, both in terms of action & sound, B.) digital piano actions (excepting hybrids) cannot handle the extremely virtuosic playing the same way an acoustic can, C.) digital pianos are modeled, built, and advertised after acoustics, and thus acoustics are, in fact, “the real thing”. Ignoring those statements with platitudes doesn’t support your point. And this sort of opaque backtracking to “they’re all good” and “find the right tool for the right job” is not the same point you made earlier.

It’s possible to know the limitations of digitals and still consider them fine instruments, without ignoring the reality that they are still approximations of the real thing. Darn good approximations, especially when speaking of hybrids and top-tier digitals, but approximations, none the less.

And when Lara can play some serious works by Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Beethoven, or some virtuosic arrangements by Tatum or Monk, or even some works by more modern virtuosos, then we’ll talk. Until then, I’m not prepared to concede that her cover of the Friends theme song, hammered out with octaves and power chords, is the standard. Again, there’s a world outside your perception. While she may be the stars in your sky, there are others for whom she isn’t the standard.

Originally Posted by pianogabe
Not sure if this is in response to my post, but since I asked for more tolerance: that had nothing to do with opinions on acoustics vs digitals vs hybrids. This was about who can participate in the thread.

I don’t think DeckardWill’s post was about who can participate in the thread. It was about the relevance of spamming multiple threads with mentions of a YouTuber, even when that person isn’t relevant to the conversation.

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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
True. But let’s kick this up a notch by getting past the lightweight gamer/movie music and establish this as the new “bar” by which keyboard playing is measured:



No room on that screen for a scrolling stream of comments and heart emoji!

Not bad, but audibly lacking a briliance that can only be exhibited through skimpy cosplay.

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Originally Posted by Taushi
I don’t think DeckardWill’s post was about who can participate in the thread. It was about the relevance of spamming multiple threads with mentions of a YouTuber, even when that person isn’t relevant to the conversation.

You are incorrect Taushi. You're wrong. Poor form from you in the way that you conjured this lie about 'spamming' ('spamming multiple threads'). The limited mention is/was for mentioning to people such as you (whenever appropriate that is) that there are gifted pianists using pianos other than the 'acoustic' sort, and they have no problem with action and/or sound. And their ears and musical ability are possibly better than both your ears and Will's ----- combined.

The thread title does indeed have the words 'the real thing'. As mentioned - all our instruments we use are 'the real thing'. There is uncertainty about whether or not the OP is after 'the real thing' (as in their interpretation that the 'real thing' is 'acoustic piano') due to thinking that having not 'the real thing' will be a disadvantage in some way(s).

Also - while I'm at it - I disagree with you about comments you wrote about 'digitals' (which also includes hybrids) not capable of 'complex' (complicated) piano music.

And once again, back to the title of the thread. As mentioned - the OP will certainly find the answer by heading (in any way that they can) to a suitable music instrument store (or as many stores as needed), to do some comparisons behind hybrids and digitals and acoustics ----- and the answer to their question will personally be found. And try enough of all of the different sorts. This also includes playing expertly tuned and configured 'premium' grand pianos. The OP isn't going to get her answer in this thread - as they will only find out for themselves by personal trying out of the various sorts of instruments out there ----- at the music stores.

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Originally Posted by DeckardWill
Not bad, but audibly lacking a briliance that can only be exhibited through skimpy cosplay.

That is a non-issue, as compared with low-stooping, disrespectful, and high-horse mentally/behaviour from you.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by DeckardWill
Not bad, but audibly lacking a briliance that can only be exhibited through skimpy cosplay.

That is a non-issue, as compared with low-stooping, disrespectful, and high-horse mentally/behaviour from you.

I note that both yourself and the person you keep insisting on using to flog your straw man to death are from Australia, SouthPark.

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Originally Posted by I. Bruton
As for the hybrid action….speaking as a new owner of the Kawai NV5S and frequent player of other acoustic pianos….it is close. The Millennium 3 action is a heavier one than either of the Yamahas I play (C3 and P22). I’m not sure I can explain it well, but it does seem like the hybrid hammer is hitting something more solid and less springy than a set of strings. I am not sure if that it an accurate description though. The hybrid is quite expressive (snd once the bushings wear a bit more, it will be quite nice -the keys are snug). Overall, I think the hybrid is a fine practice instrument.

Multiple people here on PW reported problems with slow or heavy keys, silent keys even, with brand new K200/K300/NV5 Kawai pianos. These models probably share much of the same Millenium III action and may be manufactured in the same facility. I had the same problem on my K300. After some work by a technician (from the dealer) and keeping the humidity below 60% (ideally <55%), the action now is light and problem free.

If you can feel the hammer hitting something (strings in an acoustic, or something else in a hybrid), the regulation is seriously wrong and should be fixed. A key press should lead to the full release of the hammer. You shouldn't be able to feel when it hits something.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by I. Bruton
As for the hybrid action….speaking as a new owner of the Kawai NV5S and frequent player of other acoustic pianos….it is close. The Millennium 3 action is a heavier one than either of the Yamahas I play (C3 and P22). I’m not sure I can explain it well, but it does seem like the hybrid hammer is hitting something more solid and less springy than a set of strings. I am not sure if that it an accurate description though. The hybrid is quite expressive (snd once the bushings wear a bit more, it will be quite nice -the keys are snug). Overall, I think the hybrid is a fine practice instrument.

Multiple people here on PW reported problems with slow or heavy keys, silent keys even, with brand new K200/K300/NV5 Kawai pianos. These models probably share much of the same Millenium III action and may be manufactured in the same facility. I had the same problem on my K300. After some work by a technician (from the dealer) and keeping the humidity below 60% (ideally <55%), the action now is light and problem free.

If you can feel the hammer hitting something (strings in an acoustic, or something else in a hybrid), the regulation is seriously wrong and should be fixed. A key press should lead to the full release of the hammer. You shouldn't be able to feel when it hits something.

Yep, I was one of those. Regulating the action made a huge difference - really transformed the piano to something that can be enjoyed. It is still rather a heavy action though - just no longer has any of the sluggishness from when it arrived.

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There are a number of comments on this thread relating to the ‘heavy’ action on Kawai Novus hybrids. In Stu Harrison’s revues of both the NV5 and the Nv10 on the Merriam Music website, he goes into significant detail on the impact of the volume setting on ‘perceived’ key weight. In short, at volumes below around 60%, the player feels the need to hit the key harder to produce the equivalent sound they get playing an acoustic, and their brain falsely sees this as a heavy key action. Setting the volume at circa 75% overcomes this ‘false perception’.
He explains and illustrates far better than me in his reviews.
Apologies if everyone here is already aware of this phenomenon.

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KPNUT, if I'm understanding your logic correctly, would that mean if we play at lower volumes at home, a lighter action would feel more natural as it corresponds better?

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Originally Posted by KPNUTS
There are a number of comments on this thread relating to the ‘heavy’ action on Kawai Novus hybrids. In Stu Harrison’s revues of both the NV5 and the Nv10 on the Merriam Music website, he goes into significant detail on the impact of the volume setting on ‘perceived’ key weight. In short, at volumes below around 60%, the player feels the need to hit the key harder to produce the equivalent sound they get playing an acoustic, and their brain falsely sees this as a heavy key action. Setting the volume at circa 75% overcomes this ‘false perception’.
He explains and illustrates far better than me in his reviews.
Apologies if everyone here is already aware of this phenomenon.

Thanks for the feedback. We are aware of this phenomenom and it does make sense that when the player hears the sound produced at a level less than they'd expect from an acoustic, there is a natural tendency to try to compensate. I don't think that this is what we witnessed in our particular case with the NV5S, and anyway we're pretty happy with the action now following regulation. It is still what we'd refer to as heavy but very much playable and satisfying.

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KawaFanboi: Your logic seems perfectly reasonable to me. As I said in my post, Stu Harrison explains and illustrates it far better than me, and his playing is light years beyond mine, so I recommend you watch his comprehensive reviews of the NV10 and the NV5.

DeckardWill: Good to hear you are enjoying your NV5S. Mine is on order, due in June. I live in the UK and my retailer, Bonners Music, has advised me that that when Kawai UK receive a shipment of Novus pianos, they regulate the action as with an acoustic before shipping it to the retailer, so I hope I do not have to go through that procedure.

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