2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
41 members (Andrew E., aphexdisklavier, Belger1900, @joycepersonal, 5/1/19249, Boboulus, akers, beeboss, 36251, 8 invisible), 3,558 guests, and 246 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
Hi folks,

I have not been here in quite some time. About 11 years ago I purchased a Brodmann 187. My tinnitus and hearing problems have prevented me from really playing this piano. It is just too loud in the room and I have not been able to tame it. The piano has been neglected a bit. It had been about three years since a tune and the piano has never been regulated.

Out of my desire to use the piano, I discovered wearing isolating in-ear-monitors and using microphones allows me to enjoy the piano at controllable volumes.

I found a tuner off of Thumbtack. I've never used the service before and did not know what to expect. I got a quick response and booked a tuner for a next-day visit. He had a flat estimated rate which I expected he would bump once he assessed the instrument.

The first thing he determined was it was not just a simple tuning but there was a need to repitch. He said 1/2 step but I heard much less, but that is fine. So there was an additional charge for the repitch. He then played a few notes and showed me that a few hammers were hitting the sting 2-3 times. I did not hear it but could at least see the hammers jump a bit. He said the piano could use regulation and that would be $900 and about 3 hours of work. I respectfully turned that down because at $900 I needed to do some serious research.

He took about 3 hours to tune the piano, adjusted the space between hammers, and did some voicing (needled the hammers). The final charge was almost $400. Most I've ever paid for a tuning.

A few caveats, I am in the NY/NJ/PA tri-state area, it is expensive here. Because Thumbtack does not tell you the location of the tuner, this tuner drove almost 120 miles roundtrip to my home. So between his travels, gas, tolls, and three hours of tuning and the fact the piano had not been tuned for quite some time $400 seems reasonable.

All this being said, it was a wonderful tune, probably the best I've had. I would gladly have him tune again. He is suggesting he comes back in 4 months as the repitch will probably not hold.

So this is a long-winded way to ask some questions regarding regulation:

1. I don't know, what I don't know. He says it needs regulation, but to me the feel and sound are acceptable, I don't feel anything is lacking. Is there a clear-cut way to determine if a regulation is required?
2. Can regulations be done in the home environment and in 3-hours? Just doing the math, that is about 2 min a key.
3. I see folks saying that regulation should only be done in a shop. Measure the key height and take it to a shop.
4. $900 just seems like a lot for 3 hours of labor. Is it usually a fixed rate (per/hour)

I am interested in others' opinions on having a piano regulation performed. Also, if you are tech and interested in the work please let me know.

Regards,

Rick


Music Hack

Nord NP88,Yamaha Motif ES7, Ensoniq KS32, Brodmann 187 Grand, JV2080, GR20, JV90, MKS-20, Sonar S1, Reaper, ACID, Record/Reason, Samplitude, VOX Tonelab, Tech21 Power Engine, NI, Kore, True Piano, Sampletank, Komplete, Bluesky Studio Monitors Yamaha 01X, Line 6 HD500, tons of guitars.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,395
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,395
Originally Posted by rickshapiro
So this is a long-winded way to ask some questions regarding regulation:

1. I don't know, what I don't know. He says it needs regulation, but to me the feel and sound are acceptable, I don't feel anything is lacking. Is there a clear-cut way to determine if a regulation is required?
2. Can regulations be done in the home environment and in 3-hours? Just doing the math, that is about 2 min a key.
3. I see folks saying that regulation should only be done in a shop. Measure the key height and take it to a shop.
4. $900 just seems like a lot for 3 hours of labor. Is it usually a fixed rate (per/hour)

Keeping in mind I am one of the less experienced techs here (as you weigh the value of this opinion), but one of the more experienced pianists:

1. Pianos change regulation in the first year of ownership and in the first, say, 250 hours of playing, compared with any other point in their lifespan. A well regulated piano is easier to control, and that control can include dynamics and tone.
2. Yes, a regulation touch-up can be done in-home in 3 hours, if the tech is efficient, and depending on what is done.
3. I disagree with this, most of the best techs I know like to do this work with the piano nearby, where you can pop the action back in easily and check things. It requires enough room around the piano, and sometimes a level work table. The Shigeru Kawai technician who flew from Japan fully regulated my (then) grand piano without having to even leave the room.
4. $900 does seem like quite a lot for a half day's work, yes. I charge a fixed rate per hour, others charge by the job. The best techs don't come cheap, and as you mentioned this one had to drive 120 miles (and lost out on probably another tuning, if booked solid) to do that. I've seen $1,000/day, plus expenses as a fairly standard rate for top concert techs. But that can adjust regionally, and especially in the ever-expanding realm of transportation costs (not to mention, a field that seems to have fewer and fewer high-level practitioners).


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,315
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,315
Greetings,
Some flags have popped up, and they are sorta pinkish.... The first is a question of how in demand is a tech that can book a next day job that is 60 miles away.

All pianos need regulation. The concert piano needed "some" regulating almost every time a different artist used it. The idea of regulation being some sort of standard task is faulty, since all pianos can use it, but the amount of regulating is a very individual thing. The level of performance expected dictates the extent of regulation ( gonna repin the hammer flanges and repetition levers and polish springs before setting them? Ease keys, check sole plates, etc. ), $900 for 3 hours of regulation is high, since 3 hours is not enough to do more than a very basic setting of the various adjustments. I would ask for two references of people that have had him regulate their piano before agreeing to have a complete stranger take my action apart.
Regards,

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 624
$900 I think is high for 3hrs as others have said, I thought $900 can be a full day of work?

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 413
N
N W Online Content
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
N
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 413
You say "to me the feel and sound are acceptable, , I don't feel anything is lacking."

Why would you think about spending nearly 1000?
Nick


Nick, ageing piano technician
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,986
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,986
3 hrs plus 3 more hours of drive time (at best...I know the area) plus time spent getting stuff together and set up, etc. Sure, I can easily see $900 as reasonable.

However, unless you have money to just spend, if the piano is performing up to the level you need and want right now, there is no need to go spending on regulation. If/when your playing seems to be hampered by the piano (IOW you can't make it do what you want e.g. play pianissimo, repeat quickly and reliably, have bobbly notes that drive you nuts...etc.) then it's time to talk about regulation and voicing, etc.

I would say establish a good working relationship with him and perhaps ask him to fix a little of this and a little of that when he comes. I would also suggest installation of a humidity control system to help things stabilize and hold (better place to spend the money at the moment). And uf you really want it to do its job get a full cover for the piano too.

My .02 based on 47 years experience.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 279
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by N W
You say "to me the feel and sound are acceptable, , I don't feel anything is lacking."

Why would you think about spending nearly 1000?
Nick

Pianists often find their pianos to be acceptable because they have little or no experience playing really well-prepped instruments. The enhancement in performance attained through careful regulation and voicing is usually revelatory for the player, even in cases where only small adjustments are required for each key. If the goal is to play expressive music as expressively as possible one needs all the performance one can get, regardless of skill level.

But it will take substantially more than 3 hours and cost more than $1k.


Mark Dierauf, RPT
NH Pianos
Piano technician & rebuilder since 1978
www.nhpianos.com
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,986
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,986
👍 Agreed!

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 251
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 251
Just a heads-up about Brodmann grands: Recently, I serviced a 2017 Brodmann grand in a church. This model has wood lyre braces that are adjustable for tightness via screws that are turned with a wrench. When I service a grand, I always grab the lyre to make sure it’s tight. This one rocked slightly back and forth, and I soon saw why: due to loose lyre braces, the glue joint had started to separate. It’s fixable, but will require an 80-mile drive each way to my shop should the church decide to fix it. I don’t know if the OP’s particular year/model are of the same design, but I suggest checking those braces to make sure they are snug enough to immobilize the lyre.

“1. I don't know, what I don't know. He says it needs regulation, but to me the feel and sound are acceptable, I don't feel anything is lacking. Is there a clear-cut way to determine if a regulation is required?”

Interesting question. The answer is—ALL pianos need regulation! It’s just a question of degree and what’s needed by the pianist. One question might be whether there’s something they have trouble playing. For example, a customer might say “I have trouble playing softly.” In that case, if letoff is 1/4” it’s worth regulating. But if another customer just plays holiday tunes once a year and would never notice I won’t waste their money.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
I have a question regarding regulation too. And it is related to this word itself - 'regulation'. After seeing the word used very commonly, and assuming the piano arena 'meaning' of it is along the lines of tweaking the mechanical system - such as to optimise some aspect. If the meaning is to adjust mechanisms for all keys, then you could 'regulate' the system to anything you want, which doesn't necessarily involve optimising. So anybody know if 'regulation' in piano terms is actually a misnomer? Just like 'action' appears to be a misnomer as well.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,647
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,647
It does not matter whether is was a misnomer. It is what is used now.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by BDB
It does not matter whether is was a misnomer. It is what is used now.

Good. At least we know. I had always assumed it was a mis-usage of words. It seems like that's what happened. At least it's clear (or clearer) now.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,986
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,986
One can also tune...or...toon. Both exist.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,017
W
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,017
Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by BDB
It does not matter whether is was a misnomer. It is what is used now.

Good. At least we know. I had always assumed it was a mis-usage of words. It seems like that's what happened. At least it's clear (or clearer) now.

Yes and no, it is correct to say technicians regulate pianos but whether they do a regulation is a moot point. Dictionaries lag behind usage.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by Withindale
Yes and no, it is correct to say technicians regulate pianos but whether they do a regulation is a moot point. Dictionaries lag behind usage.

I reckon that somebody mis-used the words 'regulation' (regulate) and also 'action' somewhere along the line. And that's just how it is - regardless of what people call it right now.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,647
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,647
"Regulation" is the noun. "Regulate" is the verb.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
The bracketed word is to cover both words - regulation and regulate. Both appear to be mis-used in piano circles. The correct terminology should probably be trim-work/trimming or something. As in making all necessary adjustments to components to achieve a desired state.

It is definitely possible to have the hammers strike with less force. Another option could be to go for say a digital piano or hybrid one, and the head-phones can sort it.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,395
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,395
Originally Posted by SouthPark
The bracketed word is to cover both words - regulation and regulate. Both appear to be mis-used in piano circles. The correct terminology should probably be trim-work/trimming or something. As in making all necessary adjustments to components to achieve a desired state.

It is definitely possible to have the hammers strike with less force. Another option could be to go for say a digital piano or hybrid one, and the head-phones can sort it.

Have you had an action regulated before on one of your pianos? It sort of seems like you’re description is somehow more confusing…as if an action can be set up, any way you like.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Have you had an action regulated before on one of your pianos? It sort of seems like you’re description is somehow more confusing…as if an action can be set up, any way you like.

I know what they 'mean' by regulation in piano circles. I believe you know what they mean too.

The comment about altering the force of hammer wasn't relating to 'regulation'. That can involve a heap of work. Hence the mention of another option - eg. hybrid with headphones, or even digital with headphones.

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,885
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,885
Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Have you had an action regulated before on one of your pianos? It sort of seems like you’re description is somehow more confusing…as if an action can be set up, any way you like.

I know what they 'mean' by regulation in piano circles. I believe you know what they mean too.

The comment about altering the force of hammer wasn't relating to 'regulation'. That can involve a heap of work. Hence the mention of another option - eg. hybrid with headphones, or even digital with headphones.


The topic here is maintenance of the acoustic piano. Since you own a digital, consider if you had a question about your digital: would you want the suggestion of ‘just buy an acoustic’. Acoustic piano owners don’t need to hear about options for digitals. They want to maintain what they own.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha Piano P80 vs P120
by Love Musictc - 06/30/22 05:16 AM
Modulation Help...
by @joycepersonal - 06/30/22 04:07 AM
Kawai VPC 1 / Pianoteq latency question
by DFx - 06/29/22 10:35 PM
Best tuning hammer for $100
by onerj - 06/29/22 05:56 PM
Mendolson-Liszt Lieder s.547
by danno858 - 06/29/22 04:28 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,734
Posts3,204,349
Members105,678
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5