Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Should I be using an ETD?

I agree

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

OK, Sir, then what was your intent in pointing us to the survey ?

I assumed he was just being informative.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Yes indeed. I'll try not to make that mistake again.....

OK folks, here's the thing. If a beginning driver wasn't doing very well and was considering one of those self-driving cars, would you recommend one to him, or first suggest ways to improve his driving?

But more than that... Doesn't seem long ago that the tuning debates here were about tuning with RBI sequences vs SBI sequences and how to make compromises across the break and if pure 12ths were too wide. Now it's "Get a ETD and everything will be ok. 3 out of 4 concert tuners use them. They are good to at least 1/10th of a cent. There's plenty of free trials and even free apps!" What good is 1/10th of a cent when, as those that should know say (and I believe them), real world stability is only 3/10th of a cent.

OK, so a beginner gets an ETD, hey why not? There are free apps! So will the beginner ever learn about what stretch works with what, or whether he thinks SBIs are more important than RBIs, or what compromises are possible (let alone what he might prefer) across the break?

Or maybe none of that means a thing anymore.

Wow.

Creeps quietly off into the night.......

This is a completely useless survey.

No way to see the raw data, states within the US counted as distinct countries in comparison to actual countries, not provinces and no differentiation whatsoever within the countries. Berlin equals Nordertiefenstedt in its us of ETDs? And Austria doesn't have pianos at all, I guess, right?

Completely useless.

Ok then. Good to know that aural tuning concerns are not just unimportant here, but are actually offensive.

I am surprised and a bit perturbed at the rebarbative tone this thread has taken.

I apologise if any are offended by the link that I posted.

The tuner in Idaho did not represent his survey as being any kind of definitive collection of validated world statistics. To me, I thought it was a laudable effort to carry out some 'primary research'. It doesn't claim to represent every state or country. It is simply a set of responses from exprienced tuners in various parts of the world, and it does show that some tuners doing concert work make use of elecctronic tuning aids.

It could be useful in confronting miisconceptions by clients, who may be misinformed. A lady in a distant town who phoned me to enquire about tuning, told me that many years ago, her old tuner had told her that tunings with tuning devices (stroboscopic back then) were no good.

I did not intend, by posting the link to Mr Jordan Porter's website, to give the impression that I was adopting some global stance recommending a wholesale change to the use of electronic tuning. I intended it merely, as Mr Grey suggests, for possibly interesting information.

It is a puzzle to me as to why it should have been met with such (as it seems to me) rudeness.

However, if I dislike the heat I can, as they say, stay out of the kitchen.

All I know is you are one classy guy Mr. Boyce

In the hands of someone who KNOWS what he/she is doing and can PROVE it with analog/aural tests and checks, a good ETD can be a great tool, just like a better tuning hammer or another hand tool that works really well.

However, from the BEGINNER'S standpoint, starting out letting the ETD do the "thinking", completely hamstrings understanding of the analog/aural principles upon which the algorithms are based. If the beginner continues this way, they never learn how to do it without the ETD. They may say that they will eventually learn the analog method, but they rarely do (in my observation) since it requires a totally different mindset and skill set to do so, and since they feel they can do an acceptable job (learning in a comparatively short period of time) they just never get around to it.

Therefore, Jeff's analogy to the self driving car is actually a pretty good one to consider (except for the fact that lives are not at stake with piano tuning). The principle is an interesting one to ponder. An ETD used AS A TOOL is a very nice thing with the current technology, but when used as a brain substitute...has its limitations and certified risks.

The above is an opinion based on 47 years experience. I am not close minded, but I am realistic and practical. Yes, I use power tools, but I also know, respect, and use hand tools (if anyone likes that analogy).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Scott - chiming in. Being a tuner as well as a pianist, I don't fit the profile of "average pianist".
I agree with you that the quality of unisons and octaves and fifths are important to most musicians. The way western music developed - first unisons, then 8ves and 5ths, 4ths a bit later, and very daringly later still 3rds, provides interesting food for thought about why that matters.

As to a gradually rising beat rate on chromatic 3rds, while it may not be immediately evident to the uninitiated, I can tell you, from experience with a university tuner whose unisons were perfect, and whose 8ves were more than acceptable, that there were some keys where the howling of a wolf could be heard - some keys more than others. In every case, checking his work by playing ascending 3rds, there were two places where the beat rate progressions were noticeably "off", and it was at those places, that the wolves lurked.

Summing up - most pianists won't notice the ascending beat rates being "off", but I think they WILL notice that some keys just don't sound "right" if those discrepancies exist.

Circling back to the ETD question that the OP posted, I think that the aforementioned university tuner could have improved his outcomes by setting the temperament with an ETD and finishing up the rest of his tuning aurally. He was more than acceptable with his unisons and 8ve stretches - it was just the temperament that was bothersome.

Hope this is helpful.

Perhaps another automobile analogy might be more representative than the self driving cars, which generally haven't been universally accepted... yet.

There was a time early in the auto world when no one would consider driving a car if they didn't know the mechanicals of how to set the timing, tune up the engine, work the choke, set the fuel/air mixture etc... How could anyone expect to drive without knowing the basics???

Now it is a pretty safe bet that most of us let the car decide on the optimum fuel air mixture, timing etc via the onboard computers, which have shown they are more than capable to adjust to changing conditions and improve mileage or performance as needed.

A few of the latest generation ETDs are similarly adept at adapting to individual pianos - even the ones that so many 'seasoned' techs dismiss as worthy instruments and no longer tune.

Ron Koval

I'll start with DAMHIK.

The problem with the tuner's temperament might not be solvable with an ETD. Without really good stability any shifting notes will "telegraph" into the octaves. To me the easiest improvement this tuner could make is making other checks as the octaves are tuned.

Points nicely made, Ron. Now to continue along that line, if someone can tune with an ETD, is there a reason to know what the different octave checks can tell you, or even which intervals are wide and which are narrow? And so on . . . Maybe not. When I first started sailing, the only way merchant ships could cross an ocean was with a sextant. I wonder if it is even taught anymore in the academies.

As far as what the latest ETD can do, I'd have to hear the results on a Wurlizter petite grand.

To paraphrase Robert Henri in _The Art Spirit_: "Those of us of the past are so eager to judge those of the future, not noticing that the way history works is, that those of the future will be the judges of the past."

I learned to tune the way I learned because that is what I could do in the world in which I found myself. In particular, I struggled to tune anything bearable on the late, cheap productions of American piano makers. When I was able to tune Japanese pianos, the world of tuning opened up for me.

A decade or so past at NAMM, someone pointed to the piano displays with a sweeping gesture, saying, "All these pianos have scales designed on spreadsheets with Dr. Al Sanderson's equations." YES! That is what digital design made possible in 21st century pianos. Dr. Sanderson also designed AccuTuner, and today's ETD programs go well beyond what AccuTuner could do.

Digitally deigned pianos are much easier to tune, aurally or digitally. Well-designed small verticals of our time can be tuned with a beauty that was seldom heard in small American pianos of the 1950s, 60s and 70s.

So, all I really have to say to young, up-coming technicians is "The world is yours. Use it, love it, try to make it better. You will know more than me."

I agree. A counterpoint to that is "Things sure aren't like they used to be, in fact they never were." In other words, the good old days weren't all that good. Still, its important not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I cannot say whether you should use a device or not, but definitely you should know how intervals are tune aurally, and what they should sound like.

I began tuning with an ETD. In retrospect, my tunings were almost certainly horrible. Then I decided I wanted to become an RPT. I learned how to tune aurally and my ETD was my main coach through the whole process, providing an objective judge for my tunings. Without it, I wouldn't have known how bad my tunings were. Sure, I could use aural tests, but I learned that what I thought I was hearing had a lot to do with what I wished were true, not what was objectively true. The ETD would call me out, over and over again, on intervals that weren't good enough. I passed the tuning exam, so I'd say my coach (my ETD) was an excellent coach!

Also helpful to me was doing 50 or so mock tuning exams with my ETD (Pianometer) as the scorer. I developed a spreadsheet to do all the calculations to score the exam and used the ETD to measure how far off each note was. I was encouraging to see my scores gradually improve (with lots of ups and downs). In the end, I felt confident I could pass the exam, and I did.

I still tune aurally from time to time, just to stay in practice. I also check octaves and fifths, sometimes other intervals if I detect something weird. And, of course, all unisons are tuned aurally.

That's using it as a tool. Thanks for sharing that Bob.

Tunelab had a feature (discontinued after v4) that allowed you to set up an aural/analog tuning sequence. I loved it and thought it was a superb teaching tool as you could monitor your progress note by note. Very cool. Unfortunately it was removed due to "lack of interest". Go figure...but I still have it on my old phone...ha ha!

I bet a savvy software engineer could write an addition to some of these other apps to do the same...probably no more than 30 lines of C code.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor