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#3229763 07/02/22 09:30 AM
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Finding videos that explain the same thing but are taught from a different perspective, IMHO, is very useful.

The subject is Target notes. His example is a II - V - I. Suggests using the 3rd of the chord for the target note. Then proceeds to play example starting from the 3rd of the minor chord to 3rd of dominant chord. What he didn't explain was that target notes are also used to start phrases on.

I wished he explained how he computes this phenomenon. Maybe someone here can explain how they compute this? (Please no lessons here, just looking for a glimpse into your mind.)




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What do you mean "compute"?

Connecting 3rd to 3rd is the "Fly Me To The Moon" phrase. It is fine for any type of cycling chords, not just minor 7th to dominant 7th.
"Autumn Leaves" and "All The Things You Are" are also classic 3rd in the lead tunes.
For centuries the 3rd has been a strong melody note because it defines the major or minor quality of a chord.

In recent music history the 6th, which was not a melodic target for centuries, became so with the song "Mack The Knife".


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That which characterizes jazz - sophistic thinking , refusing to be straight. In this case, away from the basic steps of the chord - 1 and 5, which are acoustically interconnected. Thus, we are talking about steps 3 and 7(6) , as is the case in All The Things You Are , bars 2, 4, 6 .Even more advanced sophistical thinking can be based on steps 7 and 11#, as well as 9 and 13.
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Thanks for the lesson I didn't ask for.


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Originally Posted by 36251
Thanks for the lesson I didn't ask for.


OP
You asked for a glimpse into someone’s mind. You got it. If you want to throw it into ‘the lesson you didn’t want’ category , you are, in fact, discouraging future replies.


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by 36251
Thanks for the lesson I didn't ask for.


OP
You asked for a glimpse into someone’s mind. You got it. If you want to throw it into ‘the lesson you didn’t want’ category , you are, in fact, discouraging future replies.

The answers were just lessons in target notes, which I think I understand.

So, a target note is also a note to start a phrase on. Maybe I'm being a too literal but a target is -

an "objective, goal, object, aim, end, desired result. plan, purpose, intention, intent, design," so if it is all that -

How is it also a starting note? This question answered would be how people think about it as a starting note, which is what I'm interested in, not to explain what target notes are.

Last edited by 36251; 07/03/22 11:02 AM.

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Hi

If I've understood your question correctly, you're correct, the notes are both starting and target notes.

If you're playing a ii V I in the key of C you know the V chord is going to be a G7 or variation of that. Therefore, unless you're going outside the changes your target note for the G7 may be the B (3rd). I.e. it's the target you're aiming for when you're playing a phrase on the ii chord.

But it's also the start note of the phrase on the V chord.

Well that's my interpretation.

Cheers


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Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi

If I've understood your question correctly, you're correct, the notes are both starting and target notes.

If you're playing a ii V I in the key of C you know the V chord is going to be a G7 or variation of that. Therefore, unless you're going outside the changes your target note for the G7 may be the B (3rd). I.e. it's the target you're aiming for when you're playing a phrase on the ii chord.

But it's also the start note of the phrase on the V chord.

Well that's my interpretation.

Cheers

Thanks for playing smile I wish Jens, who I like, would of touched on this aspect of target note. He presents organized concepts and even starts video that there is a lot of confusion about target/avoid notes yet I think my question is reasonable to think about.

How about this, if you are playing a C major7, the note C, a chord tone is not considered a target note, IMO is a better starting note. <I know about the b9 interval to avoid for those ppl who feel the need for a teaching moment.>

Why I care? Well if you drove to and from work it would be better to know all the possible routes then just taking the same one every day. It makes it less boring, handy if there is traffic and you might find something new to explore.


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Maybe this will answer your question. The goal in creating improvised lines is to make a pleasing melody, but also one that let's you hear the harmonic movement. The target note concept seems to focus on the second or third chord in a sequence, and gives one of way of making sure your arrival at the new chord is felt. But it is also important to establish the feel of the first chord in a progression before moving to the second chord. Playing the 3rd or 7th to start things, while it may or may not be considered a "target" note, is nonetheless a good way to establish the first chord, and then the target note will help create the feel of moving to the next chord.

I tend to agree that root notes can be used to start a phrase (although better if you play the major 7th on the upbeat just before playing the root!), but are not good targets. I think the problem is that the bass player (or your left hand) will likely be playing the root, so ending a phrase on the root is kinda boring. Not so much when you play it briefly at the start of a phrase, although roots are probably not the best starters or enders of phrases.

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I propose another concept - a melodic skeleton, which includes initial and target notes. This may include different degrees of chords or scales.

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I think it's a mistake to think a root is not a nice target note, IMO. I think 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 our scale tones and even 4 are possible targets. Listen to the emotional impact of "targets" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, they each have a feeling depending on the context moment.


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Originally Posted by RinTin
I think it's a mistake to think a root is not a nice target note, IMO. .
The preference for chord steps 3 and 5 both in melody and in the left hand is not accidental; it echoes the rejection of a straightforward demonstration of harmony, but allusions to it, combined with an increased sense of dissonance. CEGB sounds a certain way, CEB sounds more dissonant but harmonically clear; EB \ C - hints at a chord.

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Originally Posted by RinTin
I think it's a mistake to think a root is not a nice target note, IMO. .

What I have noticed is that the root, used as a target is used a lot but it sits somewhere before the downbeat, like on beat four or + of four.


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Targeting chord tones is a great training method. However, in my opinion it’s too pedantic and not a natural or ideal way to improvise good melodies in reality. it’s sort of like painting by numbers, in my opinion. I do see the chord tones in the moment on my instrument (pianists are constantly managing chords) and I sense a resolution towards them, but not contingent on whether it’s specifically a 3rd, 5th or 9th.


I think a better thing to practice are the two important embellishments that Barry Harris taught, the pivot and the triple chromatic enclosure of chord tones.

By the way, Speaking of targeting the root, the great composers Gershwin, Porter, Rodgers and Hart, etc. all targeted the root at the end of their marvelous melodies. The root takes it home. It’s the Queen mothership of all target notes.


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Originally Posted by RinTin
Targeting chord tones is a great training method. However, in my opinion it’s too pedantic and not a natural or ideal way to improvise good melodies in reality. it’s sort of like painting by numbers, in my opinion. I do see the chord tones in the moment on my instrument (pianists are constantly managing chords) and I sense a resolution towards them, but not contingent on whether it’s specifically a 3rd, 5th or 9th.


I think a better thing to practice are the two important embellishments that Barry Harris taught, the pivot and the triple chromatic enclosure of chord tones.

By the way, Speaking of targeting the root, the great composers Gershwin, Porter, Rodgers and Hart, etc. all targeted the root at the end of their marvelous melodies. The root takes it home. It’s the Queen mothership of all target notes.

Please feel free to share some of your recent live recordings to illustrate.


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If a specific target note is associated with a single intonation, then the melodic skeleton is itself an intonational structure, having a greater extent. Within such a structure, each subsequent target note carries the load of changes in the measure of tension and sedation ; therefore there can be no restrictions in the choice of steps.

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Thinking through the melodic skeleton makes it easy to vary the melody, changing it significantly.


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