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Thanks @Revelation Sound for posting the video. I appreciate your roundup of reasons to support your purchase decision in favor of the FP-90X. Enjoyed you anecdote recalling your church experience with a Steinway grand. It does help situate your DP experience within a wider personal context, giving me another salient point to ponder.

I take special note of your emphasis on the superior speaker array in the FP-90X over its lesser siblings, and that you're underlining quality over quantity.

Thanks for weighing in. You've done me a good deed! I think I understand the value proposition of the FP90X much better now than when I first posted the original question.

Well, I have had this now for several weeks, and the more I play it the more I like it. The keys are really nice, but after playing for an hour, they seem a little heavy. I think I need to develop some muscles in my fingers. I usually use the first concert piano with reverb on 5 or 6. I also use the harpsichord for some John Thompson book 3 stuff that I used to play when I was a young lad. The keys I don't find slippery at all and are made of a good material.

I also am getting some Billy Joel, or Bruce Hornsby music and playing it through my Android phone through the speakers. I then play with the keyboard with the music which is helping me get better timing with the actual song.

Good Luck with that.

I would advise focusing on both technique and correct piano posture.

What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body https://a.co/d/6JVh5fH


It's a mistake to play for too long ---gradually increase session times. If you play into fatigue, your technique will falter and this will cause poor practice and injury.

Improving strength without good technique will hinder deliberate practice, slowing your rate of improvement down.

actually i was joking.
If he really should succeed in developing muscles in his fingers he would be an anatomical miracle

In Europe, the price of the FP-90X is much closer to a Yamaha P-515 and ES-920 than in the US. For instance, in my case, 1745 (FP-90X) vs 1555 (P-515) vs 1590 (ES-920).

I wonder whether people who criticise the FP-90X for its price tag in the US would consider it in such a market? Because next to the sound of the modelling engine the price seems to be the main criticism?

For context:

I'm looking for a new digital / stage piano and the three usual suspects + the Studiologic Numa X Piano GT (which also costs around 1750 here) are currently my favorites.

I like the Numa X Piano GT because of its midi zones (which would allow me to control external gear), but even though I have good external studio monitors, due to the way my room is set up, it's a toss-up with a keyboard with onboard speakers. The piano is to the side of my main desk / studio monitors so I'd probably have to buy some additional smaller monitors that I can put in front of me for a better playing experience. I'm also not entirely sold on the on-board piano sound of the Numa X Piano GT.

The ES-920 was pretty OK when I played it, the keys felt a bit shallow though.

I only played the PHA-50 once, and the experience was really strange. It was a Roland DP-603 and the key action had some noticeable lateral travel, and it felt quite floaty, as if walking on stilts. I wonder whether that's just how the PHA-50 feels or whether maybe the model was too banged up in the store.

they'll probably have to discontinue the 920 or remake it with a new chassis. it's just terrible and flimsy, significant rattling. the body doesn't compete at all with 515 or 90x. they can maybe get away with the 920 at $1200 where the 520 was. if we get a better chassis back to 1500, 1800, way too unrealistic.

the 520, difficult, I really don't think it should be above 1100. i don't regret owning it but i don't care about the price, RHC's performance is superior to all existing actions on the market.

It's not just the price and sound though, it's the extra cost to rectify that...

a) External headphone amp to get over that awful internal amp
b) Laptop to play your chosen replacement sound
c) VST cost

Just as well it comes with an internal audio-interface.

Or you can buy something you can’t fix, with too heavy an action.

Or too bouncy of an action with a flimsy body and no usb audio in,

Or perhaps have to buy external speakers, a laptop and audio interface.

Or have it so heavy you can’t move it.

And I personally like the sound of the fp-90x pure acoustic piano model.

It is very clear and there is a lot tweaking one can do to the modeling, even on a per key basis.

The headphone amp is perfectly adequate. If I turn up the volume too high it is painfully loud with my beyerdynamic headphones.

I’ve demoed several virtual pianos. More recently Vienna symphonic library. It’s missing sympathetic resonance so there is a thread on how to blend it with pianoteq. Some people like messing with that stuff.

I like to play piano. And I have other people who play it. And I move it.

I don’t know anyone who has listened to or played my fp-90x who has said it is crappy.

Those are all negligible for me because I already do own all those things (producing music for 20+ years) so I can't really count them as a negative compared to the other pianos.

So in that sense, since the 4 keyboards I've listed roughly cost the same for me then it's ultimately really about juggling the action, quality of the onboard speakers, added functionality (audio interface, midi zones), quality control, sturdiness etc. in my context... which makes it a very hard decision

Some comments tho:

About a) I'm not saying you are wrong, but I really have a hard time believing this, I own tons of gear and synthesizers and I never had a problem with driving any of my high-impedance headphones, so that would be quite shocking to me.

About c) Just by listening to the demos of the FP-90X and considering the various editable parameters with their modelling engine I'm somewhat confident to get at least a passable sound with it. I mean the ES-920 for instance didn't exactly blow off my socks either when I played it.

Well, I tried and failed to get anything remotely pleasing from a pair of Sennheiser HD650's, and the cheapish Panasonic store cans (100 ohms) on the Roland pianos. Both these cans sounded fine on the Nord Grand, CP88, CLP658, ES8, etc.

I have read posts discussing which headphones work well with Roland DP's---I believe some people commented with suggestions not to exceed 32 ohms! I believe the Grado SR80e are a good fit for the Roland pianos.

BTW, I've heard many demos on YouTube and yes, all the PureAcoustic models sound fine, if a bit different.
Perhaps if one tried the Roland's in isolation in a store with no other decent competition, they Roland pureacoustic models might sound ok.
If like me, you do something unwise---like play the CLP785 and then play the LX708 in the same store---there is literally blood coming off the LX708 where it went down in the first 30 seconds of the 1st round -- out cold.

Personally, I was very keen to get to the store and see how modelling had advanced when the LX708 came out. I was thinking of upgrading to the RD2000 from my MP7, so I had good reason to want the Roland models to sound good. I was so disappointed with all the PureAcoustic modelling digital pianos: they suck compared to the models in direct competition (at least to my ears). Sometimes I beat around the bush and use careful language, but there is a time for brutal honesty---a nearly £4,000 LX708 was nowhere near as nice to play compared to the £1,300 ES8 and I did try for over half an hour to tweek the LX708 in pianodesigner to fix it. I tried on the RD2000 too for about an hour, and wasn't anymore successful tweeking that. Of the 4 hours I spent in store, at least 2 hours were spent on the RD2000, Fantom and LX708. I ended up buying an MP7SE instead.

What is exactly wrong with this modelled sound: There was this feeling that the sound was coming from a distance---like a ventriliquist throwing their voice! There was much less sound clarity too i.e., compared to the sampled pianos---especially compared to the Nord Grand and Yamaha CLP models. All models sounded boxy, compressed, and underpowered (the speakers on the LX708 especially seemed to lack grunt on full power). I don't know where Roland are going wrong---whether it be in the translation of the modelling engine into actual sound, or if it's just the modellling engine that is unable to output competitive piano.

Even with the 3d thing and the pseudo-TRS turned on (which made it slightly more fun to play), nothing could be done boost the sound on the LX708---in comparison to it's rivals.

On the FP90X, the PHA50 action is great btw, it's just the sound. Therefore, I think with a good VST and a headphone amp (or low impedance cans), nobody should be shying away from the Roland digitals.

I know that the FP90X is probably the cheapest route to a PHA50 action: that to me is it's main advantage. However, to me, both the RD2000 and the Fantom 8 make slightly more sense, as they both have so much to offer besides the pianos (and both are quite good fun)---but definitely, any of the popular VSTs would be my go to for piano over the PureAcoustic modelling from Roland e.g., Pianoteq, VSL, Garritan, Ravenscroft etc.

Doug,

Any theories as to why Pianoteq can get modeling right but Roland cannot? I own an fp90 -- love the action, hate the sound. Quality cans help only to a degree. I figured the fp90x would have better modeling than its predecessor, but from your account it's still sub-par. I'm gearing up to try Pianoteq with my fp90 (once I get over my reluctance due to ham handedness with computer manipulations) and have fingers crossed that I'll like the results. I'll add some quality speakers while I'm at it. I gather there's no point in upgrading to any other slab in this price range because I'll probably want a VST and external speakers in the final analysis. It just seems that so many of us are chasing the best digital in that price range but ultimately conclude that the slab, whoever makes it, doesn't quite get there without external sounds and speakers.

Btw, I am considering Pianoteq due to the fact it takes up so little hard drive space. Good decision?

The demo version means you'll risk nothing. But I found out, after many years, to alter very little of the parameters. The velocity curve will need adjusting to your piano/tastes.
Many are those who, too, find the Pianoteq sound boxy. But through external speakers, it more closely resembles a real instrument imo. Real pianos are very boxy instruments you know.

There you go.

There are people who will want to use virtual instruments and those that don’t.

Some are happy with the internal sounds of their piano some aren’t.

Some will want external speakers, others don’t

Some like the sound of the fp-90x some don’t.

These are opinions.

To say you need to use a virtual instrument on a computer with the fp-90x is a subjective assessment. Opinion.

As for the headphone amp, my beyerdynamic DT 770 pro 80 ohm headphones are fine and plenty loud.

As were my at mx50s and sennheiser earbuds.

That again is my opinion.

I would not judge the merit of an opinion by the length of the post, the number of times it was posted, or the tenor of that opinion.

Enjoy your playing,

With the due respect, the artistic beauty is not an opinion. It is Truth.

Excellent question.
I'm not sure that Pianoteq is a breeze to set up. According to posts discussing headphones vs speakers, there is need to have separate EQ profiles for both. Also, reverb settings sound different through cans compared with playing through speakers.

Pianoteq Pro gives V-piano levels of tweekability; however, the community of users pianoteq has access to as well as a more constant stream of updates to pianoteq suggests that the greater improvement comes from a faster development cycle.

With more pianos modelled, potentially, that's more lessons learned and then shared and improvement deseminated to other models. In short, I think they've worked harder on one aspect (modelling) than Roland have, and that's given them more success to reinvest.

That's not to say Pianoteq is the answer. In some respects, pianoteq plays more dynamically meaning it takes better player control to make sure the piece sounds even. So it's perhaps a better training tool. Also, it has better resonance modelling than most sampled pianos.

For sound purity, the VSL D274 sounds much better than Pianoteq. For performance or recording, the Garritan CFX or VSL D-274 will likely sound better.

There maybe another reason why Roland has issues. One of the issues with pianoteq is a coldness in the bass resulting from a larger amplitude overtone set coming from the mid-range. This can be seen and heard in Stu Harrison's video comparing VSL to Pianoteq. It's possible that Roland have tried to reduce the metallic qualities of modelling to make it warmer, but have caused the sound to become distant. That's pretty much speculation and probably horse poop on my part.

Be interesting to test how your Beyerdynamics perform using an external amp. Bruce from Phily uses one on his RD2000 and swears it makes a decent difference.

a) Electronics change all the time, seems high-impedance headphones are becoming exotic and it may be more important to be able to drive recently more popular low-impedance ones. That said, the FP90 sounds okay with my old Sennheiser HD545, 150 ohm at max volume, but not that great with Senn IE40 and some other low-impedance in-ears at 1/3 max volume. I've got no low-impedance big cans to compare, but I did notice that the voltage at the output drops substantially when low-impedance phones are connected.

C) That's very subjective IMO, I preferred the ES8 piano sound to FP90.

Thanks for helping me make a decision by sharing your views, people. Despite being intrigued by the FP-90X, due to my experience with the DP-603, I ultimately decided to order a Studiologic Numa X Piano GT. As long as the action holds up I'll be happy. If the sound turns out to be crap I'll just use Pianoteq or NI Noire for practice.

I'd like to know how your experience is going so far, was it a positive transition? What did you regret? What would have you kept from RD?

Most importantly, how does the TP400W compare to the PHA50?