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Joined: Aug 2004
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I'm curious if any of the latest hybrids have converted any serious pianists, that may have previously scoffed at digitals? I've been looking to see if any dealers near my mom carries the hybrid Kawai or Yamaha models. She was a piano teacher for several decades, and performed a lot in the past. She only ever played grands. She has tried my digitals (a couple Yamaha slabs and my Roland DP-990 with the PHA-II which was pretty great at the time, but a bit outdated), and thought they were OK for occasional practice but never wanted to own one.
My mom has been without a piano for about 5 years now after moving to an apartment. She previously owned a Yamaha grand. At this point, it's either digital or nothing, but she is just not keen on spending a lot of money on a digital. But she might be coming around.
I'm just curious if any piano professionals/teachers were ever able to get on with a good digital? And were they able to get longterm satisfaction out of it?
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Joined: Apr 2022
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no one should be anti digital to begin with, they're just different, they do so many things better than acoustic, not having an acoustic action is actually beneficial in the areas of evenness in control and precision.
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not having an acoustic action is actually beneficial in the areas of evenness in control and precision. But hybrid digitals basically have acoustic piano actions…which is their reason for existence.
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right, you win some lose some, that's ok, people get to choose. i'm just saying anti digital is narrow minded.
Last edited by KawaFanboi; 07/07/22 07:16 PM.
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right, you win some lose some, that's ok, people get to choose. i'm just saying anti digital is narrow minded. +1000 While I will most happily play any piano (acoustic, digital, hybrid) ----- the only 'piano' that I'm ever going to buy or have in my home is not only going to be digital ----- but it's also going to be a 'slab' ----- or roughly approx rectangular and relatively compact.
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My AG N3X was delivered on 2/10/21. I would say in the first year it saw a fair amount of playing in the living room of our house. It had been many years since I last had the Yamaha Gran Touch GT2 in there, so it was a novelty having an instrument with speakers in the house again. My wife loved it. But as time went on, to be honest, I haven't been playing it all that much. I've mentioned selling it to her quite a few times in the last 6 months but she likes the look of it in there from an aesthetic piece of furniture aspect , along with the now occasional times I play it.
When I blow over tunes ( in jazz language, that's improvising over the changes on a song), or check out a solo line/structure or chord voicing that I visualize in my mind, 90% of the time I turn on my Yamaha P-515 in the office. I actually prefer the sound of it with my Senn HD650s to the sound of the AG playing with the lid up.
I just don't bond with the N3X as an instrument like I do my piano, which I'm very blessed to own, plus have in a detached studio from the house. I could try go into detail and verbalize why that is but I probably wouldn't be very successful expressing my reasons. I will say coming from a improvisational based jazz player perspective, I play much differently and more fluid with regard to ideas on my piano then any digital. The creative improvisational flow is never there like on any Pro level piano. Also the touch, nuance and control is always missing with a digital for me.
Probably easiest to say that the AG could be gone tomorrow and I wouldn't miss it a bit, where I would miss the P-515...haha crazy I know.
Digitals have come a long way and are a quantum leap compared to years ago. They function great when space and noise constrictions are an issue, plus they're always easier to record. However I would always want a good quality Pro level piano. Even for some reason if we were forced to sell the the D, downsize and get a lesser piano. Which fortunately I can never see being the case.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Digitals have come a long way and are a quantum leap compared to years ago. They function great when space and noise constrictions are an issue, plus they're always easier to record. And of course budget. My edit time ran out.
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I'm curious if any of the latest hybrids have converted any serious pianists, that may have previously scoffed at digitals? I've been looking to see if any dealers near my mom carries the hybrid Kawai or Yamaha models. She was a piano teacher for several decades, and performed a lot in the past. She only ever played grands. She has tried my digitals (a couple Yamaha slabs and my Roland DP-990 with the PHA-II which was pretty great at the time, but a bit outdated), and thought they were OK for occasional practice but never wanted to own one.
My mom has been without a piano for about 5 years now after moving to an apartment. She previously owned a Yamaha grand. At this point, it's either digital or nothing, but she is just not keen on spending a lot of money on a digital. But she might be coming around.
I'm just curious if any piano professionals/teachers were ever able to get on with a good digital? And were they able to get longterm satisfaction out of it? Hybrids with a VSTu for sound have been the way for me. I’m not Yuja Wang or Daniil Trifonov, but my repertoire does consist of advanced pieces and I regularly perform on well-maintained concert-level acoustic instruments and that’s my expectation. So, I’d *like to think* my standards are high ( or, at least, it makes me feel good to think they are ). I am not willing to compromise on action or sound, but because I live in a condo (with paper thin walls apparently), and have many neighbors, I am not able to have an acoustic piano. I didn’t want a digital, and haven’t played one regularly since high school, but after moving into a space where it was no feasible, I was left with that choice. After having owned Yamaha’s CLP-785 (with their top of the line action) for almost a year, and having tried Kawai’s CA-99 for several hours on many occasions (with their top of the line action), I was still displeased. The actions were…fairly good, but still missing something. The sound was terrible, though. Vienna Symphonic Library fixed the issue with the sound, but the action was still 90/100. I now have a Yamaha N1X, and, coupled with VSL, that suffices well. So much so, that I’d actually prefer it to some of the grand pianos I have to play at times. And that says a lot. Your mom’s feelings are understandable. Digitals have been a huge step down from acoustics for years. However, this new generation of hybrids has bridged that gap wonderfully. I would imagine her main concern is the action. Tell your mom that, in terms of action, hybrids are EXACTLY like acoustic pianos in EVERY way. Per a Yamaha technician, the action inside the N1X is from the Yamaha GC-1 5’3 baby grand. Per Kawai, the action inside the Novus is similar to the GX series, probably the GX-1 (a 5’5 baby grand) or the GX 2 (5’11 baby grand). So, unless your mom is accustomed to playing on 9 foot concert grands only, she won’t have any issues. Let her watch some of the promotional videos, then take her to try one. The native sound will be garbage and digital, as even the hybrids are still inferior, in terms of their on-board samples. However, a good VST will fix that.For the cost of a good entry level piano, you can get your mother a hybrid, a laptop, and one of VSL’s pianos (I’d recommend the Steinway or the Yamaha CFX as those are most familiar to the sound many people will love), and it will both feel and sound like an instrument that costs more, by orders of magnitude. Honestly, my N1X with Vienna Symphonic Library Steinway D, makes me feel like I’m playing a $100,000+ instrument. Put your mom on a hybrid with one of the super-comprehensive VSTs and I’m sure she’ll never go back to only wanting an acoustic in the house. You can set all the connections up for her, disable the password, and put the VST icons on the main screen. That way, if she’s not tech savvy, all she has to do is turn the computer on, turn the hybrid on, wait for the computer to load, double click on the VST, and get to playing. My two cents.
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Standard: Absolute beginner. Currently butchering Bach BWV846! Kit: Kawai MP11SE; Focal Alpha 80 monitors (pair); the original REL 'Storm' Sub-woofer from the early 1990's ( manufactured by BK Electronics Ltd on behalf of REL); Roland Z-Stand; generic studio style speaker stands; HP Grado SR60
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Joined: May 2022
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I recently got a Kawai K200-ATX4. That's an acoustic piano with a silent/digital (ATX4) option.
I'm very glad to have gotten the ATX4 option, I think the extra cost was very worth it. But that has purely to do with keeping the peace in the neighborhood (the acoustic is surprisingly loud). I find myself playing the ATX4 80-90 percent of the time, because of its convenience.
I do get to play short bouts on the acoustic side, and those are the highlights of my week at the piano. I look forward to it, I just love the resonance...it is a different instrument. One day, I'll grow out of city life for a more retired life, and will then play purely acoustic, I imagine.
Everyone is different. To me, I grew up learning classical on an acoustic and digital is a necessary compromise. The ATX's flexibility/features (such as very easy recording) sweetens the deal. But others, with different interests and needs, may really flourish with a digital.
All I can say is--I hope your mom can try it! There is nothing like touching, feeling, and hearing the instruments to know what you want. That's how I knew what was non-negotiable for me (the true touch of an acoustic), what felt OK, and what I loved.
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Oh yeah, and to add, the Kawai NV5 (digital) was a final contender. I would 100% agree it is a true acoustic action. It was priced similarly as the K200-ATX, though I didn't negotiate for it so I don't know what it would end up at. I think the NV10 was priced in the range of K300-ARES, the next level up acoustic/silent from Kawai.
NV5 has some great digital features--such as internal speakers, which ATX4 lacks (but K300-ARES does have).
For me, in the end, having the acoustic option was very important, and at a similar price range, it was a no-brainer. But I think he NV5 would be an excellent choice for other folks.
(And now I see the prompt. I'm not sure if I would qualify as a "serious" pianist. I'm about an intermediate student, classical--but serious-minded, attempting to move on to advanced eventually.)
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SchubertRock, everything you wrote above applies to me, too. I love digits (and hybrids specifically) and am grateful they exist to allow for more playing than I would otherwise have access to. At the same time, there's nothing quite like an acoustic.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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A modern hybrid may be useful and appealing to many people. Mostly amateur players.
But for someone as OPs mom, i don't think so. She has far too many experience playing acoustic pianos, and far to much level (several decades as piano teacher). If she was younger, still performing, an hibryd would be useful for practicing late at night, or warm up hands. But if she is even past that point, and even has been without a piano for the last years, i don't think she is going to have any intetest in playing on hibryd. The action may be good, but as soon as she plays a chord or a scale, she will hate that sound, she will find no pleasure, or any sense, in playing that thing.
Who would be interested in playing on a flight or car simulator, after several decades of being a real combat pilot, or F1 driver?
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For the cost of a good entry level piano, you can get your mother a hybrid, a laptop, and one of VSL’s pianos (I’d recommend the Steinway or the Yamaha CFX as those are most familiar to the sound many people will love), and it will both feel and sound like an instrument that costs more, by orders of magnitude. Honestly, my N1X with Vienna Symphonic Library Steinway D, makes me feel like I’m playing a $100,000+ instrument. Put your mom on a hybrid with one of the super-comprehensive VSTs and I’m sure she’ll never go back to only wanting an acoustic in the house. This! Although I’d recommend Pianoteq (but that’s just a matter of preference), the ‘hybrid’ is the best bang-for-the-buck as compared to aging acoustics. Now, imagine the next-generation hybrid with VST-level sampling/modeling, soundboard, and the action of at least a six footer, that will all but eviscerate the proverbial gap.
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But if she is even past that point, and even has been without a piano for the last years, i don't think she is going to have any intetest in playing on hibryd. The action may be good, but as soon as she plays a chord or a scale, she will hate that sound, she will find no pleasure, or any sense, in playing that thing. I think that's up to the pianist to decide. Perhaps she would feel the way you suggest, or perhaps she would love the opportunity to play again, without all of the inconveniences and hassles of the acoustics she's lived with. Who would be interested in playing on a flight or car simulator, after several decades of being a real combat pilot, or F1 driver? Well, judging by the number of classified military leaks that happen in the course a single year in WoT, I'd say a lot of service personnel enjoy and participate in military simulator games. It's not the real thing, but it's the closest you can get. And as with the statement above, that undoubtedly appeals to some people.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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I bet WHATEVER you want, she will pass on hybrids.
Concert pianists have their earing so used to the nuances of acoustic sound, even the best vst with the best speaker's system sounds poor and crappy to them.
There's no way she will dig it.
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I bet WHATEVER you want, she will pass on hybrids.
Concert pianists have their earing so used to the nuances of acoustic sound, even the best vst with the best speaker's system sounds poor and crappy to them.
There's no way she will dig it. It sounds like you know pretty sure what you don't like. That's fine and I wish you well. But you're speaking quite surely for someone who isn't even here. As OP's mom grew up with piano and hasn't had one for 5 years, I'm keeping my mind open that she might find that she relishes the opportunity to play again in her constrained space/environment, even if it isn't on the finest regulated concert grand. Sometimes you can't have the entire world...and i'd humbly suggest that not everyone will take an "all or nothing" approach to music.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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This discussion comes up regularly here. I'm convinced that any medium to advanced pianist with a lot of experience on an acoustic will never really love a DP. Especially when they're used to a grand.
To everyone who thinks otherwise I ask: how long have you played an acoustic? If you have little or no experience playing an acoustic, I think you cannot really make a good comparison.
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Gombessa riiiight? We're so lucky to be living in an era with these good choices. Concert pianists have their earing so used to the nuances of acoustic sound, even the best vst with the best speaker's system sounds poor and crappy to them. I'll say this: it sounds a *lot* better with headphones than over speakers. (Granted, my speakers are external, but I've heard that even internal speakers still don't compare to the true acoustic). *However*, there is a limit to using headphones in my opinion. Wearing headphones, you have to keep the volume up to about a realistic piano volume to make sure you're practicing your dynamics correctly (and be sure to control all the way down to piano, pianissimo, etc.). After about a month of enthusiastic practicing with headphones at this volume, I started developing a bit of tinnitus and ear discomfort. I never had that happen at the acoustic piano, even at its naturally loud volume (when I had only an acoustic as a kid). This is only relevant if you need to practice dynamics to that degree, of course (usually for classical?).
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