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I just would like to ask for advice whether I should purchase a grand or upright. I am currently at Grade 4 and expect to reach grade 6 between one and two years. My older son (7+) is about to finish his initial and will probably reach grade 3 in two years. His little brother will start next year when he reaches 5. The grand we are considering are C2X and G2X. For upright we will not go lower than k500 or U3. Our space and budget allow both grand and upright. But since we are all at the start of the learning curve will we actually benefit more by having a grand rather than an upright. Would it be less ideal allocation of money and space if we go for a grand straightway or should we first go for a decent upright and then see if our enthusiasm lasts and skill matches a mid-size grand? Currently we have a CLP-745, we all love it but as I am reaching the intermediate level we are looking for an acoustic. I know for sure that action and sound will be better for grand than upright. But from learning perspective does grand have any advantage over upright? If any difference would lead us to spend more time playing I would consider it as a plus.
Last edited by felix2015; 08/03/22 07:57 AM.
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Sounds like a financial decision as much as anything. Both kinds will depreciate, but if you start with the grand you will probably be able to wait longer before trading up-- so fewer hits there, albeit at a higher cost of capital over the life of the piano. To add to this mix, if you all run out of gas, you won't regret having a grand in your living room.
But I will let others chip in with their experience.
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Without a question c2x (or g2x) is much better. If your budget allow for a new c2x. I would even consider a used, close to 7 foot piano.(like used c6, c7) At some point you will learn more advanced pieces that would benefit for having greater dynamics and tonal depth, a good 7 foot piano will offer everything . That being said, a new C2x is exceptional in almost every way, Your family will benefit for having more sensitive touch, responsible control, more tonal colour and dynamics than a upright. My suggestion would be, being a friend which is a advanced player, play a few pieces to test a pianos full capacity.
PLEYEL P124
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Any one of the uprights would work for intermediate through early advanced (and beyond) pianists. They have the advantage of being able to fit into tighter spaces, thinking ahead. The grands you're considering present no limitation to pianists of any level, obviously. Financially, you'll probably lose most by stepping up to a new tall upright, and then stepping up again to a new grand in a short period of time. But there are other considerations besides finances.
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I’m always an advocate of good financial decisions. I was mostly happy with a preowned mid-level upright, even as an advanced musician, for about four years. Eventually an advanced musician will probably become tired of such a workhorse but mileage may vary. Although I agree these grands won’t pose limitations per se, they might not be a dream piano for an advanced player. I think most advanced players would dream of one day owning at least the next level up (SX for Yamaha, if not CF) or another top tier alternative brand piano (Steinway, Fazioli, etc). So it’s worthwhile to think out a few possible scenarios for the future knowing all this.
Formerly chromaticvortex. Bösendorfer 225 (1978 restoration), Yamaha U1 (1984). Writer/piano teacher. Recent video("Vampire’s Lust")=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKZ5LE-Gcg
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I would go with a grand.
And since space and budget is not a problem, I would suggest you to buy a grand.
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Hi Felix, considering you have multiple players/learners in the house, you have the space and budget for a grand, you are looking at both higher quality/larger uprights and grands (i.e., you are not obviously compromising on a 5' grand), and you're upgrading from an already good quality digital piano (are you keeping the 745 for silent/quiet play??), my vote is to skip the uprights and focus on finding a good grand.
Presumably you're working with a $30-35k budget, which gives you a lot of options.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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+1
I think you should buy the best piano you can afford as this will enhance and encourage you and your son to play. You will just enjoy the time spent at the piano. Although I have played music my entire life, I am beginner/intermediate on piano and just bought a Bosendorfer (used etc). I love playing it and enjoy the 3 to 4 hours I spend every day at this piano. I don't ever feel it is too much piano, rather something I will grow into.
Sounds like you can afford a decent sized grand. I wouldn't hesitate and also feel you will get more piano for your money if you buy a good used 6' or larger.
Last edited by drewhpianoman; 08/03/22 02:37 PM.
Bosendorfer 200 Yamaha P515 - camping piano! Previous - Kawai RX3, Yamaha c3 (1985), Yamaha CLP 785, Roland FP30 Recording Gear - Focusrite Clarette, Rode NT1-A's
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I just would like to ask for advice whether I should purchase a grand or upright. I am currently at Grade 4 and expect to reach grade 6 between one and two years. My older son (7+) is about to finish his initial and will probably reach grade 3 in two years. His little brother will start next year when he reaches 5. The grand we are considering are C2X and G2X. For upright we will not go lower than k500 or U3. Our space and budget allow both grand and upright. But since we are all at the start of the learning curve will we actually benefit more by having a grand rather than an upright. Would it be less ideal allocation of money and space if we go for a grand straightway or should we first go for a decent upright and then see if our enthusiasm lasts and skill matches a mid-size grand? Currently we have a CLP-745, we all love it but as I am reaching the intermediate level we are looking for an acoustic. I know for sure that action and sound will be better for grand than upright. But from learning perspective does grand have any advantage over upright? If any difference would lead us to spend more time playing I would consider it as a plus. A grand does have advantage over an upright for learning experience. The piano itself is a teacher, in a sense. Because practice makes you into a better musician, the piano you're happier playing more on (i.e. the better piano), is going to be advantageous for your musical development. So that's fairly logical.
Formerly chromaticvortex. Bösendorfer 225 (1978 restoration), Yamaha U1 (1984). Writer/piano teacher. Recent video("Vampire’s Lust")=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKZ5LE-Gcg
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A grand does have advantage over an upright for learning experience. The piano itself is a teacher, in a sense. Because practice makes you into a better musician, the piano you're happier playing more on (i.e. the better piano), is going to be advantageous for your musical development. So that's fairly logical. I agree. One does not have to be an advanced pianist to enjoy the sound and experience of a good grand more than a good upright. Yes, there's a small chance that all three pianists in the family will become less interested in playing the piano at one point, but the biggest financial hit will be if you have to sell or trade in a vertical because you want a grand in a few years. If the additional cost for the grand put a strain on your budget some posters would probably have a different opinion, but that is not the case for you.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/03/22 03:19 PM.
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A grand does have advantage over an upright for learning experience. The piano itself is a teacher, in a sense. Because practice makes you into a better musician, the piano you're happier playing more on (i.e. the better piano), is going to be advantageous for your musical development. So that's fairly logical. I agree. One does not have to be an advanced pianist to enjoy the sound and experience of a good grand more than a good upright. Yes, there's a small chance that all three pianists in the family will become less interested in playing the piano at one point, but the biggest financial hit will be if you have to sell or trade in a vertical because you want a grand in a few years. If the additional cost for the grand put a strain on your budget some posters would probably have a different opinion, but that is not the case for you. Agreed. I actually, in some ways resist applying labels of "beginner, intermediate, advanced" etc. (the generic level system etc), it's all a bit...superficial and prescriptive, for something that is more subjective (and maybe irrelevant), especially when you go to other genres. This risk diminishing the capacity of musicians to appreciate fine instruments and music itself, regardless of supposed "level". Even more casual musicians have the ability to appreciate a high-quality piano and will find themselves with a better "piano as mentor" as result. Well, we all have a relationship with our piano, and that shouldn't be undervalued. The step from no piano at all to merely a piano that is playable can be huge, but so can the step from one merely playable piano to the next of superior playability.
Formerly chromaticvortex. Bösendorfer 225 (1978 restoration), Yamaha U1 (1984). Writer/piano teacher. Recent video("Vampire’s Lust")=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKZ5LE-Gcg
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I got an upright (used U1) as a beginner before upgrading to an RX-3, and even for a less experienced player, I enjoyed the better touch control and sound of the grand.
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Felix2015 - I am curious why you are asking this. You have another thread on a grand piano you seemed intent on purchasing? did you change your mind?
Bosendorfer 200 Yamaha P515 - camping piano! Previous - Kawai RX3, Yamaha c3 (1985), Yamaha CLP 785, Roland FP30 Recording Gear - Focusrite Clarette, Rode NT1-A's
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Felix, your last post in your other thread suggested that you may not be staying in the Middle East for more than another year. If this is the case, I would consider deferring the purchase of an acoustic piano. From everything you have indicated, it does not sound like there is a booming piano market where you live, so it will be difficult to sell the piano, and at will be difficult and expensive to move it. The piano may also suffer in transport. If a move is a high likelihood event for you, I’d think about keeping the Clavinova for now. This is especially the case as it seems that piano shopping is complicated in your area and dealers are reluctant to let you purchase floor models (so you are buying a piano sight unseen).
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Felix, your last post in your other thread suggested that you may not be staying in the Middle East for more than another year. If this is the case, I would consider deferring the purchase of an acoustic piano. From everything you have indicated, it does not sound like there is a booming piano market where you live, so it will be difficult to sell the piano, and at will be difficult and expensive to move it. The piano may also suffer in transport. If a move is a high likelihood event for you, I’d think about keeping the Clavinova for now. This is especially the case as it seems that piano shopping is complicated in your area and dealers are reluctant to let you purchase floor models (so you are buying a piano sight unseen). Thank you Sgisela, very valid points. That was my original thoughts. We can wait for a year or two for the upgrade from digital to acoustic. One of the main drivers to upgrade now is the price. In my region a GX-3 costs about 20K USD, in west Europe the same piano would cost 30K Euro. In US I saw it would be similar in quantity but in USD. So, it's one third cheaper. This has to do I believe with VAT, import tax and warranty (10 years versus 1 year). I haven't considered about resale but I am sure no one here would buy a grand. For me, the only trigger if I need to sale it is none of us in the family is going to play any more. On moving, the cost including insurance will be covered and I don't need to worry. What does concern me is the impact such as from temperature and humidity change during oversea moves. If the same piano costs me the same elsewhere I would buy it when I settle but the discount (simply because of the region) in ME is so large to simply pass. The local dealer doesn't have any grand in stock and has to order directly from Kawai/Yamaha. This is very common practice here. There were only 60 acoustic pianos sold last year in the country, just giving you a baseline. No dealer would store a mid or high range grand simply for display and hope it will be sold within a year. BTW, I have stopped considering the RX-2 I asked about in another post. It has been put in vertical position for 10 years with the bass side in the bottom and I believe this should have caused permanent change for the worse. The dealer allows me to open and test it before I decide to purchase or not but I think the risk is still significant as some problems may only come to surface after months or a few years.
Last edited by felix2015; 08/04/22 12:57 AM.
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Felix2015 - I am curious why you are asking this. You have another thread on a grand piano you seemed intent on purchasing? did you change your mind? Thanks Drewhpianoman for asking. I have replied to Sgisela but auote it here for you: 'I have stopped considering the RX-2 I asked about in another post. It has been put in vertical position for 10 years with the bass side in the bottom and I believe this should have caused permanent change for the worse. The dealer allows me to open and test it before I decide to purchase or not but I think the risk is still significant as some problems may only come to surface after months or a few years.'
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Sometimes a higher quality instrument (or tool or device) can commit, motivate and draw people to do the activity it was designed to do, and because you have children and can afford it, I would go for the best piano. For example, sometimes people ask me for advice on purchasing a bicycle or a photographic camera, two of other my hobbies. Sometimes people fear that they will lack the motivation or drive and present very limited budgets, but these budgets are relative to what want to spend, not what they can afford comfortably. They could buy something better, but they just don't see the activity as a priority and don't want to spend money on it because 1)they fear they might give up and 2) they evaluate their options from their current beginner perspective and think they do not need a such good instrument or tool. In the case one gives up, even a cheaper alternative is too expensive already. No point in spending 1$ if one is not committed to using the instrument (or bike or camera or whatever). And having something good sometimes draws people into using it (it feels better and it also gives guilt pressure if one simply gives up). Also, if one continues to really practice and improve, eventually he will want to upgrade, sometimes in the very short term. Upgrades are not very rational from my point of view except if we are talking about digital pianos (or digital cameras) that depreciate in terms of technology and upgrading after a few years can be rational because they will be better instruments (or cameras) at the same price point. Acoustic pianos do not suffer technological depreciation for the most part I think, so no point in waiting for new cheaper, or better technology. My 2c!
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Hi Felix, considering you have multiple players/learners in the house, you have the space and budget for a grand, you are looking at both higher quality/larger uprights and grands (i.e., you are not obviously compromising on a 5' grand), and you're upgrading from an already good quality digital piano (are you keeping the 745 for silent/quiet play??), my vote is to skip the uprights and focus on finding a good grand.
Presumably you're working with a $30-35k budget, which gives you a lot of options. Thanks Gombessa. Yes, we will keep the DP for silent practicing whenever preferred. The sound from 745 when I put headphone on is very good and the touch is closer to grand than upright. I tried K300 and U1 in the showrooms more than once and I am not convinced. I think if K500 or U3 gives me same sound and touch I probably would prefer playing my 745. The asking price of GX-3 is 20K in USD in my region. GX-2 will be less.
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A few more thoughts and an addition question… the question is whether you move frequently. My father was in a profession in which we moved internationally every 1 to 4 years. I think this does have implications on what you might choose, but I’ll let you answer if this is your situation (or if you will be moving and then staying in your next place for a the foreseeable future).
My thoughts are that given the additional information, the main issues are: 1. How important is it for you to play a given model before you buy it? For many of us here, this is quite important. From what I understand, you haven’t been able to play the model you are thinking of buying, and even with Kawai, there will be variability between pianos. In your next location, you may be able to play the piano before buying it. Is the cost saving worth the risk to you? 2. The warranty. This will not be an inexpensive piano. Why is the warranty only 1 year? I don’t think warranty issues are super common, but when they arise, you want to be able to use it. Others with more knowledge can opine, but I suspect there are plenty of times when warranty issues arise after Year 1. 3. Climate concerns. I suspect that the climate where you live is extremely dry. Will you have a humidification system? And how much will this raise the humidity in the piano room? I would get a hygrometer and start testing this. Pianos don’t like extremely low humidity. 4. Moving: things can definitely happen during a move. There was a thread within the last year about a piano that did not fare well when it was moved from the east coast of the United States to the west coast, and it ultimately was returned to the dealer. Whether or not this issues would be covered by your insurance, I don’t know. 5. I would also ask about the wait time of getting the instrument. Would it change your mind if you need to wait 9 months for it to be delivered (and then have to turn around and have it moved? 6. I would also figure out if I need to pay any import duties on the piano (if it gets moved somewhere) and how much the duties might be. You may need to factor this into the cost. 7. On the cost saving balance, inflation is here, so this may result in even more cost savings if you buy now.
I think some of the decision will come down to how risk averse you are and how much you weigh some of the potential complications of the purchase, relative to the cost savings.
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in your case I would get the c3x or GX3. They will sound similar to u3 or k500 but much better, you should get a clear idea of tone & touch preference of Yamaha vs Kawai. To me I prefer touch and tone of c series over GX but they are roughly same grade piano. For shipping it will be some work, packing crate etc. that’s how the piano got here. I wouldn’t worry too much. In a new location it will take a year or two before the piano stablize with the new environment. Good luck
Last edited by Steven Y. A.; 08/04/22 07:50 AM.
PLEYEL P124
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