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Hi so, I've been considering getting the Mp7se and occasionally I'll read that people say the biggest downfall of the rh3/rhiii is that the keys are too bouncy. The only time I can recall bounciness on keys is when it pop backs up and the impact causes it to jiggle, though I'm sure It means something totally different. Anyway, my questions: What is a bouncy key action and what are advantages and disadvantages of one?
Thank you in advance
-Raquel
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The only time I can recall bounciness on keys is when it pop backs up and the impact causes it to jiggle, though I'm sure It means something totally different. I think that's exactly what everybody means. Acoustic pianos do it too to some extent. Maybe some people find it to affect quick key repetitions as the key kind of escapes your finger at one point.
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You have it totally correct. I recently purchased and then returned an Mp7se because I couldn't get used to the bouncy action. I did a slo mo video of the keys to a make sure I wasn't crazy. It took about 5 bounces before coming back to rest. By comparison my Yamaha GHS was about 3, the PHA-4 was about 2-3, my in-laws Baldwin upright was 2.
Other than the bounce the keyboard has great sounds and is built like a rock. Though it is pretty pricey (in the US). As I really only needed a controller I went with a Roland FP-30x. To me, the actions are similar but the Roland doesn't bounce like a truck-framed SUV. Action aside, the Kawai is better in almost every other regard (except for the fact it doesn't have a built-in audio interface which I'm finding far more useful than I expected.
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You have it totally correct. I recently purchased and then returned an Mp7se because I couldn't get used to the bouncy action. I did a slo mo video of the keys to a make sure I wasn't crazy. It took about 5 bounces before coming back to rest. By comparison my Yamaha GHS was about 3, the PHA-4 was about 2-3, my in-laws Baldwin upright was 2. I just checked my Arius YDP 103 that has GHS keys and it aso has 3 bounces. As my technique has progressed beyond expected, the 2 biggest downfalls are that my fingers are starting to trill beyond how fast it can sense it (I don't know if that's due to the bounciness, or just dual sensors) and that its very slippery even with the shortest of nails. Not going to lie, it is kind of upsetting to find this out considering how good and professional it really sounds as well as the parameters and the drawbar features, though I'm still not exactly sure how the bounciness effects playability. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the city soon to try some stage pianos out. My secondary options are considering something with wooden keys. My girlfriend has the mp11, but she's always doing shows with her band, so I don't have unlimited access to it. I might just get the Mp11se for myself (which would be hilarious considering we also both have the same flamenco guitar model except hers is a cutaway, and mynes is a fullbody.) Also have been considering the yamaha p515 but have always felt disgusted by Yamahas E. Piano sounds. I love Rolands so I'll also check out their Rd's and Fp's
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You have it totally correct. I recently purchased and then returned an Mp7se because I couldn't get used to the bouncy action. I did a slo mo video of the keys to a make sure I wasn't crazy. It took about 5 bounces before coming back to rest. By comparison my Yamaha GHS was about 3, the PHA-4 was about 2-3, my in-laws Baldwin upright was 2. I just checked my Arius YDP 103 that has GHS keys and it aso has 3 bounces. As my technique has progressed beyond expected, the 2 biggest downfalls are that my fingers are starting to trill beyond how fast it can sense it (I don't know if that's due to the bounciness, or just dual sensors) and that its very slippery even with the shortest of nails. Not going to lie, it is kind of upsetting to find this out considering how good and professional it really sounds as well as the parameters and the drawbar features, though I'm still not exactly sure how the bounciness effects playability. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the city soon to try some stage pianos out. My secondary options are considering something with wooden keys. My girlfriend has the mp11, but she's always doing shows with her band, so I don't have unlimited access to it. I might just get the Mp11se for myself (which would be hilarious considering we also both have the same flamenco guitar model except hers is a cutaway, and mynes is a fullbody.) Also have been considering the yamaha p515 but have always felt disgusted by Yamahas E. Piano sounds. I love Rolands so I'll also check out their Rd's and Fp's If you have the opportunity to try it, you should. I'm coming from a YDP-143, so similar to what you have. I know a lot of people on this forum use it and have no problem with the bounciness. What is your use case? Are you just looking for something to practice piano on? Are you looking to gig with it or use in a recording environment, etc. You mentioned E pianos and such how important are other sounds to you?
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As a professional pianist and a 30-year player of digital pianos, I love my "bouncy" Kawai ES110 action for practice and for solo piano gigs.
Some folks have observed that the other brand bounces 3x and the Kawai bounces 5x. Can somebody explain why 5 bounces vs 3 bounces is of any consequence or problem? I have yet to notice interference in my playing as a result of key bounces. I've probably logged around 1,000 hours on my ES110 action and never thought "this is bouncy". Its responsiveness and dynamic control are superb. I notice it's medium-weight and player-friendly, the keys almost fly away like on a good acoustic grand. My acoustic is a 1966 Mason and Hamlin.
I got my first Roland digital around 1989 and have owned over 20 different digital piano models since (Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil, Korg, Kawai, Technics, Nord, Casio, Fatar). The Kawai ES110 has been my favorite action yet and I never consider it "too bouncy." That tiny bounciness at the top of the key return is totally irrelevant in my opinion.
Last edited by RinTin; 08/11/22 06:20 PM.
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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You have it totally correct. I recently purchased and then returned an Mp7se because I couldn't get used to the bouncy action. I did a slo mo video of the keys to a make sure I wasn't crazy. It took about 5 bounces before coming back to rest. By comparison my Yamaha GHS was about 3, the PHA-4 was about 2-3, my in-laws Baldwin upright was 2. I just checked my Arius YDP 103 that has GHS keys and it aso has 3 bounces. As my technique has progressed beyond expected, the 2 biggest downfalls are that my fingers are starting to trill beyond how fast it can sense it (I don't know if that's due to the bounciness, or just dual sensors) and that its very slippery even with the shortest of nails. Not going to lie, it is kind of upsetting to find this out considering how good and professional it really sounds as well as the parameters and the drawbar features, though I'm still not exactly sure how the bounciness effects playability. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the city soon to try some stage pianos out. My secondary options are considering something with wooden keys. My girlfriend has the mp11, but she's always doing shows with her band, so I don't have unlimited access to it. I might just get the Mp11se for myself (which would be hilarious considering we also both have the same flamenco guitar model except hers is a cutaway, and mynes is a fullbody.) Also have been considering the yamaha p515 but have always felt disgusted by Yamahas E. Piano sounds. I love Rolands so I'll also check out their Rd's and Fp's If you have the opportunity to try it, you should. I'm coming from a YDP-143, so similar to what you have. I know a lot of people on this forum use it and have no problem with the bounciness. What is your use case? Are you just looking for something to practice piano on? Are you looking to gig with it or use in a recording environment, etc. You mentioned E pianos and such how important are other sounds to you? Good question, an all in 3 practice, performance, and recording (and of course composing and creating. But, the main reason was to have a portable keyboard so I could move it around in my studio room for recording and to use it via gigging. As much as good action means to me, I am considering the quality of sound just a tab more. The sounds that are very important to me are the more professional instrument sounding ones looking.The most important ones for me above all is piano and electric pianos but I'd like to also have a bigger variety of organs as well and vibraphone. But I wouldn't mind if there were high quality strings, winds and other things that would I could hit with the sostenuto pedal. I wouldn't be using synthy sounding stuff. The other thing that is hugely really important are parameters such as key/string resonance, escapement, (suitable fx like wah over the organ, tremolo on vibraphone) ect. The newer mp series seemed to cover all of that and more. I don't really need thousands of sounds though. I know it's more sensible to have one for practice/technique building and one for sound but but my budget is going to be tighter for a bit.
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Hi so, I've been considering getting the Mp7se and occasionally I'll read that people say the biggest downfall of the rh3/rhiii is that the keys are too bouncy. Honestly, I would recommend play-testing the MP7SE and forming your own conclusion. What might be a major issue for one person may be totally insignificant for someone else. There are a lot of great players who enjoy the MP7SE, including the keyboard action. I recently spoke with an incredible musician touring from the US with a well-known artist - this guy said he specifically requested an MP7SE for their Japan tour because of its feature set and because he loved the feel of the action. Cheers, James x
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I recently spoke with an incredible musician touring from the US with a well-known artist - this guy said he specifically requested an MP7SE for their Japan tour because of its feature set and because he loved the feel of the action. That artist? Kris Kross
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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As a professional pianist and a 30-year player of digital pianos, I love my "bouncy" Kawai ES110 action for practice and for solo piano gigs.
Some folks have observed that the other brand bounces 3x and the Kawai bounces 5x. Can somebody explain why 5 bounces vs 3 bounces is of any consequence or problem? I have yet to notice interference in my playing as a result of key bounces. I've probably logged around 1,000 hours on my ES110 action and never thought "this is bouncy". Its responsiveness and dynamic control are superb. I notice it's medium-weight and player-friendly, the keys almost fly away like on a good acoustic grand. My acoustic is a 1966 Mason and Hamlin.
I got my first Roland digital around 1989 and have owned over 20 different digital piano models since (Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil, Korg, Kawai, Technics, Nord, Casio, Fatar). The Kawai ES110 has been my favorite action yet and I never consider it "too bouncy." That tiny bounciness at the top of the key return is totally irrelevant in my opinion. That's really helpful and hopeful to hear. I recently played a roland fa-08, it was stiff but wasn't bad. Tbh I don't really have a preference between tight or bouncy, I jusr ask that the keys don't get super stiff at the top of the key and not always play on the edge 🤣 (Hence the distance of pivot point)
Last edited by Raquel Cruz; 08/11/22 08:31 PM.
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Hi so, I've been considering getting the Mp7se and occasionally I'll read that people say the biggest downfall of the rh3/rhiii is that the keys are too bouncy. Honestly, I would recommend play-testing the MP7SE and forming your own conclusion. What might be a major issue for one person may be totally insignificant for someone else. There are a lot of great players who enjoy the MP7SE, including the keyboard action. I recently spoke with an incredible musician touring from the US with a well-known artist - this guy said he specifically requested an MP7SE for their Japan tour because of its feature set and because he loved the feel of the action. Cheers, James x Yeah thanks again! My huge concern with action is it not getting stiff at the top of the key so like pivot point. I will be checking stage pianos soon so we'll see
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I have a bouncy keyboard and one not so bouncy.
The bouncy one is noisier on a key release. Annoying when playing at night.
Absolutely not an issue when playing with a group.
The other thing I find is that since I slide my fingers on top of the keys, you some times catch the adjoining key as the key hasn’t settled.
Sometimes if you play fast on a key you hit it on the way up and sometimes on the way down.
Yes, everything has some sort of bounce, some more then others.
I would definitely go play it as it might not be an issue at all for you.
FP-90x, PX-330
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Relatively bouncy most likely means that the moving key (and whatever else is moving that is connected to it) approaching its target stopping position is not getting the 'moving energy' (or kinetic energy etc) removed as quickly as another setup might remove it. So if there isn't enough energy removing feature (eg. dampening material), or if the moving mechanism is allowed to build up a certain amount of momentum (or moving energy) that the dampening material can't remove quickly enough, then it can lead to substantial bouncing.
It might not impact negatively the performance of a person playing the piano. Or maybe no actual study has been done on whether significant bounce can be an issue under particular conditions (eg. sort of playing, type of playing etc). It all depends on how fast a finger is moving when pressing and re-pressing the same note repeatedly. Even if it is very bouncy, and if the depressing finger intercepts the bouncing key at some point of the upward or downward movement of the bouncing, and if the piano player can still push the key down without any significant timing errors associated with playing playing timing, then that's fine.
One reported observation (audible one) in some reviews of certain bouncy mechanisms is excessive thump/clump noise - more than usual (when compared to other keyboards). So one test at a music shop is to play at zero speaker volume, or test the keyboard when electrical power is removed ----- eg. push keys down, and then abruptly release, and then listen. And also watch the keys anyway - to see how they move (even if bounce might not actually affect playing performance/playability).
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It might not impact negatively the performance of a person playing the piano. Or maybe no actual study has been done on whether significant bounce can be an issue under particular conditions (eg. sort of playing, type of playing etc). It all depends on how fast a finger is moving when pressing and re-pressing the same note repeatedly. Even if it is very bouncy, and if the depressing finger intercepts the bouncing key at some point of the upward or downward movement of the bouncing, and if the piano player can still push the key down without any significant timing errors associated with playing playing timing, then that's fine. Typo - omit ' playing'
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For gigging I will no longer move any keyboard over 27 pounds. The ES110 that I will be replacing with the significantly improved sounding ES120 is 27 pounds. I can't stand the stiff and heavy Roland FP action in this weight class, and I don't like the insensitive Yamaha P action. For that matter, I am not a fan of any of the current Roland actions or the Yamahas.
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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and I don't like the insensitive Yamaha P action. What sort of yamaha 'P' action?
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"What is a bouncy key action and what are advantages and disadvantages of one?" ---
Bouncy RHIII have been discussed here about 25 times, but you can really get the impression only if you try yourself. It may bother you or it may not. If you can't try, order from a place that accepts returns. I've seen a bouncy (ES8) and a not-too-bouncy (CN29/39) RHIII in the same store. I guess this is probably due to different or aged felt damping strips (for speedy pianists, fast key return is essential for fast key repetition, but some in some key actions the keys return quickly and without much bouncing). I'd still prefer the bouncy RHIII to the "crusty" P515, but this is very subjective, the PHA50 somehow relates most to my old AU though the latter has twice as much downweight... and I think I'd eventually get used to any.
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Hi so, I've been considering getting the Mp7se and occasionally I'll read that people say the biggest downfall of the rh3/rhiii is that the keys are too bouncy. The only time I can recall bounciness on keys is when it pop backs up and the impact causes it to jiggle, though I'm sure It means something totally different. Anyway, my questions: What is a bouncy key action and what are advantages and disadvantages of one?
Thank you in advance
-Raquel So when you walk on grass, your feet sink into the ground a bit, so the ground feels soft, especially if it's muddy. As the summer progresses, the mud gets harder, so walking on grass feels firmer. If you walk on concrete, much of the energy is reflected back into your legs, so it feels springier (if such a word exists) to walk on concrete than grass. If you play acoustic actions, they too have different feels: some feeling like hard mud, others reflecting back more of your energy. Some people who strike the keys with a lot of force (perhaps more than essential) might describe an action as bouncy if it reflects back that excessive force which they applied to the keys in the first place. In digital pianos, some actions are very unreflective so when you depress the keys, you get nothing reflected back. The PHA50 action is an extreme example, and one action that people who 'dig in' a lot really like (dig in: a term meaning to play predominantly loudly, such as a Rock pianist might during a rousing number). Ideally you want some reflection back from the keys but not too much. The better your technique---ie, the more efficient is your playing---the easier you'll find it to play reflective actions. The MP7SE with the RHIII action is not that reflective, it's just that one certain user (who we shall not embarrass) started calling the action bouncy. There was literally nothing said for years about the RHIII action being bouncy, and then this user kept repeating the same term over and over in his posts, and others started saying it too. If your technique is good, you'll enjoy the RHIII, as it's a really nice action for classical piano. OK, the Grand Feel action on the MP11SE is a notch better (and still reflective, but not quite as much). If I weren't into gigging, the MP11SE would be my choice. I think if you find the RHIII action too reflective, you might see the symptom as something you could address by modifying your technique. If the style of music you play is very dynamic with lots of digging in, you might prefer the PHA50, as that action might take more abuse and remain functional. Btw, very good players ---even professionals or virtuosos---sometimes suffer from poor posture or over aggressive playing! Some very talented pianists have ended their careers due to the damage their joints have suffered from poor posture and/or technique mechanics. Technique and posture is something we can all improve by deliberately focusing on this aspect during practice.
Instruments......Kawai MP7SE.............................................(Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000) Software..........Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8 Stand...............K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand Piano stool.......K&M 14093 Piano stool
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My own personal opinion about the P-515 is that I absolutely love the feel and behaviour of the keys and key mechanism. Wonderful mechanism. I don't consider heavy at all for my fingers and hands. For myself ..... it is a pleasure to play.
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My own personal opinion about the P-515 is that I absolutely love the feel and behaviour of the keys and key mechanism. Wonderful mechanism. I don't consider heavy at all for my fingers and hands. For myself ..... it is a pleasure to play. Having tried the P515 recently and compared with the following MP11SE FP90 FP60X ES920 ES520 Nord Grand Korg Nautilus All these where in a small room, so it was quiet. I used my own headphones that I use to play my MP7SE so removing new headphone bias. The conclusion about the P515 action is that it is on the very-light side of things. Downweight wise, it felt closest to the ES520, but the key return speed on the P515 NWX action is over quick. I can see it being an action good for fast repeating notes and for people who dislike heavier actions. Sometimes that key repetition speed might come in handy, but for feeling like you're playing a piano, I preferred the FP90X, ES920 and MP11SE actions. Having played all these in one room, I'd be ---if buying---walking out with the MP11SE. The experience of playing the Grand Feel action on a slab was a clear step ahead of the PHA50 and RHIII actions. For serious piano students, I think for development of technique, the action rating would be: 1. Grand Feel 1 2. RHIII / PHA50 3. NWX and RHCII and RH3 (Nautilus) and PHAIV (in the FP60X) Which you like I think is a composite of sound, action, speakers and piano-like behaviour (overall feeling including pedalling etc). Thus, it's not all about the action. However, if light actions are your thing, you might prefer either the P515 or ES520 dependent upon whether you like very bright piano samples or not. The Nautilus has a very nice piano sample: the Italian Grand. Would be lovely to see Korg design a new piano action. They were all a pleasure to play tbh, although the Roland Piano sound wasn't my cup of tea. Probably just too used to Kawai's sound now.
Last edited by Doug M.; 08/12/22 08:10 AM.
Instruments......Kawai MP7SE.............................................(Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000) Software..........Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8 Stand...............K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand Piano stool.......K&M 14093 Piano stool
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