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savvyguy:

Whether or not a reconditioned/rebuilt piano is better or worse than the original instrument depends on the person doing it. Third-party parts are not necessarily worse than the original parts. In some cases they can be a LOT better. Pianos from reputable dealers have a lifespan of tens of years. If you scan the threads in the Piano Forum you will see that many people own instruments that are pretty old by Singapore's "new must be better" mentality.

If you have the time and patience then you should be able to find a decent second-hand upright for $3k. It may not be a Yamaha or recent Kawai, but still OK nonetheless. Of course you should also make sure that you are sufficiently educated about how to assess the condition of a used piano.

The best 'one stop' place to go is Larry Fine's "The Piano Book". I got my copy from Books Kinokuniya. Many piano shoppers arm themselves with this when they go shopping. Other than telling you about how a piano works and how to assess a used piano, he also gives a pocket summary of each vendor and the models. It covers primarily the U.S. market but many of the vendors covered sell all over the world, including in Singapore.

Larry also has a tiered ranking system that attempts to give you an idea of how good each vendor's pianos are. But this ranking system should be used only as a guide, because some of the rankings are highly controversial. You should also bear in mind that a Tier 3 piano (for example) isn't necessarily bad. It just isn't built/plays/sounds like a piano from a Tier 1 vendor. A supplement is published every year to update the vendor list and rankings.

So where do you start your search, if you are OK with a used piano. You go to dealers that are known to do good reconditioning and rebuilding. And the best place to start is Emmanuel & Sons, at the Serangoon Road end of Owen Road. Mr Kwan the owner is a friendly and helpful guy, and an expert piano tech. There are others.

Heheh. My guess is that you will end up doing what many of us doing - doubling your budget to get a good used/new piano.

Hi savvyguy

Very glad that you are quite well informed by teachers. Teachers advice can be right or not so right sometimes :-) But being nice, teacher usually offer the safer advice.

For some adventurous guys, who like to take risk, ask for views, hunt for the best piano money can buy, 2nd hand piano is like stock market. Got to pick the right ones base on knowledge(learnt from pass mistake).

Older yamaha, eg. 35ys onward U1 seems to have a good matured soundboard. but the parts are worn. So what to do? Order new parts, re-stings, repolish, regulate everthing.

But the question is, who install these parts, how skill are they? the can be indonesian ex piano factory sifu, can be jb tech, can be local tech, can be japanese apprentice. we really don't know. Sounds like sea of uncertainty.

Hehe, i kenna complain once by teacher that my tuning is out. After arriving, i investigate... hmmm i was sabo by the spinning ceiling fan above. After we turn off and stop the fan, no more shivering tone ;D the rotating blade somehow induce a tremolo effects on certain keys more badly due to phase interaction.

Well, 3K + for U1 of age 22~30 yrs is reasonable market price. I bought mu U1A (22yrs) at ~4200 from a dealer. So i estimate, private market is slighty lower 30%
Hunt around, yahoo auction, ebay. Don't buy on impulse. As for advise or 2nd opinion.

What i meant 2nd hand is not "beat up" pianos. I mean, good condition, moderately use, not for concert pratice. Owner takes good care, upgrading or migrating. Not selling because something is wrong type. So, these pre-owned piano aren't as bad as it sounds. The only things left is "if the price is right".

So... have your pespective widen already?
or we made you more blurr?

why so silent here ???

ya hor.....

practising for exam?

...and posting in other threads mah.

Hi everyone!

Newbie here...have been reading all the messages in this thread and i must say that i have learned alot about pianos from you guys!

I'm starting to learn the piano...a childhood dream of mine...rusty fingers!

Anyway, i have purchased a second hand upright kawai piano...it's a kawai US-7X from century piano in liang court. Was hoping to know a little bit more on the US series.

It's a 15 years old piano and i must admit the sound is really captivating...total damage - 5.7k with 5 years warranty and 3 free tuning. Not sure if i got a good deal..

Any advices for this new beginner?

Estranged: Welcome to PW and to this Singapore/Malaysia monster thread! It is never to late to start learning to play the piano; you'll realise that when you read more in the Adult Beginners forum (ABF)

I don't know anything about the US-7X. You might get more information if you post in the Piano forum. $5.7k seems like a lot to pay for a 15 year old piano, but a quick search online suggests that this might be one of Kawai's quality instruments (during that time). On the other hand, 5 years warranty and 3 free tunings for a 15 year old piano suggests that the dealer is pretty confident about the instrument that he sold you.

Welcome to the thread Estranged

Pricing could be secondary issue. As long as the piano plays wonderfully, it should be worth it. And if one day you finds it was a little over price, introduce someone else to buy from uncle and ask for a commision to offset your last purchase .... hehehe

Well as a start learn the scale, appregio.. chords... learn fur elise... Are you self learning or learning from a teacher? Lots of us here are like you, returning after a long break or to re-pursue life's dream(one of)

cheers

Hi Snoopycar,

I'm taking private lessons from a piano teacher. Anyway the piano arrived yesterday and i'm very happy with it!!

Any ideas on the kawai US series, i'm trying to search on the specifications.

By the way, what is a upright grand?? I heard of baby grand but upright grand?? Is this a gimmick?

Thanks!

Hi

Sometimes, large upright(132cm) are pitch as upright-grand.... big bass, big sound. Is it gimmick, perhaps. Some ppl prefer softer sound for HDB rooms.. so loud for what, wait downstair knock bamboo

Actually it's more like, oh this tall upright has long key, feels like a grand touch... and so on
As kawai has so many models, just enjoy your piano lor. Piano can be addictive, but healthy.

I'm almost an piano hobbyist addict myself haha

thanks for the reply.

Loud more shiok mah...:-)

hey r steigerman & wagner pianos gd? or shld i jus stick to kawai or yamaha?

Hi Roses... If you are not rushing on your purchase, then try as many pianos as you can. Compare them. I believe Singapore have huge selection of pianos. Of course, there maybe few brands that will cost you a bomb. But no harm trying it, it will help along your piano shopping.
Regards

Hi guys,

I'm new here. I'm getting a Yamaha U1 for my seven-year-old. Is it crazy to get a brand new one at $8600 or should I just settle for a 12-year-old second hand for $4600? I know the importance of 'depending on condition', but I'm just wondering if second hand pianos are really worth it. I'm a layman and know nuts about pianos. Is it true that Japan-imported pianos at second-hand shops do not have 'tropicalised' or 'climatised' cabinets (I'm assuming that 'cabinets' refers to the body of the piano) or even soundboard? I'm not too sure why the Yamaha salesperson say that. I thought the pianos they bring in are also shipped from Japan. Why should second-hand yamahas not 'tropicalised' while those that are sold in their retail shops are?

Rains... if you do a search in the forum, you find a lot of debate pertaining to the season for destination, tropicalised or climatised issue I think they work the same being 70% made of wood. I remember reading it in the forum, that piano makers cured their woods the same way, maybe some cured it differently but the variation is somewhere between 1-2% EMC. On tropicalised pianos, you noticed there are few screws on the ribs. I think the edges are also applied with extra layer of something, I think is lacquer – similar material used on the soundboard. I was told this process slow-down the absorption (especially for humid tropical countries) but it doesn’t stop the absorption. In long-term (constantly at 80-90%) they will still have problems. End of the day, whether the piano is tropicalised or not, manufacturers will still suggest that piano stays between 42-65% RH. IMO, if manufacturers have suggested the same figures for both season for destination and built for the world so why worry! And, also piano warranty does not cover humidity issue. Regards.

12yr U1:
It should be worth it - if its not heavily used.
(because i'm a U1 supporter ... hehehe )

Alright... with $4600, wow! u can explore 2nd hand bohemia, petrof 131 or even older U5 !!

Anyway U1 is always a safe choice. Try to get more "free tuning" package. Make sure it's standard A4-440 tuning. I known a customer who manage to get 4 free tunings!! Really, and when i was ask to tune the U1, it was quite holding its pitch at 440! As uaual, go through all the necessary checks, and ... bargain a bit.

hmm troicalized.. i'm not sure if it means anything. How about i paste a sticker "tropicalize" on your piano and charge you $2000 for insurance fees n cover your for any capentry or parts defects related for 20 yrs.... just kidding.

It should be no problem getting a used piano imported from japan domestic market. Many are sold here in Spore. They are mostly in superb condition, even smells new - really.. you know when you open the lid to inspect the internal parts, you can literaly smell the fresh just made smell. For me, i like that.

For the money saved compare to buying a new one $8600, i would say it's worth it. Use the $$ save for a good teacher - wiser investment.
(assuming the 12yr U1 is prinstine condition, not used in diploma music school where its was heavily used)

Choosing a Piano is sometime is like predestine. They comes in batches. In the batch, condition varies. If you go at wrong time, good piano are sold out, left not so good ones.
Piano are not like cars. 12yrs car you have to consider hard in Spore - UV, parts wear, fuel comsumption... road tax

Bottom line, go see and hear the U1.
It's like buying a Corolla, quality functional design.

okie thanks!

Hi. I am new here. Currently looking to buy a piano. I have 3 sons just started their piano lessons. They are age 6, 9 and 15 years old. I went to look at many brands, namely Kawai, Yamaha, Broadmann, Hailun, WIlhelm Tell, Petrof, Elington, Pearl River, etc. With so many brands, I am not sure which one is suitable for my 3 kids although I personally like the Kawai K8. I went to a used piano shop and they told me there is a shipment with a Kawai K70 coming in. Any body know the specs of a K70 and if it is good?

Thank you in advance for you advice.

Whether it is 42% or 70% RH is actually far less important than *constant* RH. It is large RH swings over long periods of time that are bad for pianos. In the tropics if you can keep the RH of the air in the vicinity of the piano around 70% (+- 5%) I think is fine.

As an example, one particular high-end piano manufactrer does not perform 'tropicalization' on their pianos. However they will honour their warranty for their grand pianos as long as the instrument is in an environment with a more or less constant RH of 75% and a full Dampp-Chaser installation. The downside with this is that this manufacturer doesn't know that it is not possible to get a full Dampp-Chaser installation in Singapore (at least not when I tried).

The bottom line is that although you have to be careful with pianos and RH, these things are actually far more hardy than you think. I have a 42 year old Schimmel console that spent its first 10 years in Singapore, then the next 9 years in a warehouse and then in Tasmania, and then back in Singapore for the 23 years to the present (but not in my home). And it is still doing OK.

No need full dampp-chaser... half will do. Humistat plus, maybe few, dehumidifier with the right watt.