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DO you think it is possible for me to make it to Juliard? I just started playing about 11 months ago. I am playing things like Mozarts K.545, claire de lune, sonatina by handel in a-, and other songs at that level. My problem is it always seems like my dreams slip away because of a late start, or something because of my disadvantage.. I wonder if it is possible to compete against the greater musicians in the world with such a late start...

Sure, why not? How old are you?

But one question: What do you want to do after Juilliard? That's the most important thing, IMO. Gotta take the long-term view.

You do know that a Juilliard degree isn't a guarantee of anything, yes? It's not a guarantee of a glossy performing career, or a juicy post teaching music to privileged private school children, or a career as a professor of piano at Juilliard.

Here in our downstate Rust Belt public school system, my daughter's Middle School band director has a degree from Juilliard. I have no idea whether she got more money from the school board because of it, but I seriously doubt it.

i am 16, which makes it worse

I am in the same boat and would absolutely love to go to the Julliard or another prestigeous music school.

Do grades in school effect getting in or is it a purely musical descision by the school.

I am caught in the middle of wanting to go to music school and going to a good university.

What are your opinions on this? Do you think that it would be wise to go to university first and then go to a music school or should I just choose one?

Thankyou for your imput and I'm sorry Chris Rossini if you feel that I 'high-jacked' your thread, I truly didn't mean to.

Doubtful. Schools tend to pay based on degree or hours towards a degree. They usually don't care where the degree came from, which is why a lot of teachers go back to get Masters degrees from the cheapest/closest school they can find.

You're right about a Juilliard degree not guaranteeing anything. It's also very possible to build an academic or performing career without a degree from Juilliard, NEC, Peabody, Eastman, etc...

It's all about hard work and initiative. The name on the diploma can help, but not as much as you might think.

The music world these days is such that people will respect degrees from a wide range of institutions. Juilliard does not have a monopoly on excellence. It's an excellent school, but it's not the only one, and there are more excellent schools out there today than there were 20 or even 10 years ago.

Also, the most important thing is the quality of education and teacher you get. If you can get the best teacher and education for you at Juilliard, then go. If you can get it at the University of Oklahoma or Florida State, then go. (And I know a few people from the likes of OU and FSU who beat Juilliard grads in academic job searches.)

no, i was wondering the same things

Hey Chris,I don't want to sound like a gray cloud,but at 16 you would need to know at least half the Chopin Etudes,Beethoven Sonatas,Bach's Well-Tempered,and at least 2 complete Concertos to even have a chance at getting accepted into Juliard.Send for their catologue to see first hand their entrance requirements,you will be astounded.Develop your repetoire,there are other great music schools with less stringent requirements that could take a look at.Believe me,Juliard is'nt for the faint of heart.

Juilliard's website.

Academic requirements.
http://www.juilliard.edu/admissions/generalap.html
So you can apply under their Early Admissions program during your junior year of high school, but you'll need strong endorsements from teachers, a lot of maturity, and an audition.

Juilliard is basically a "college for performers". Is that what you had in mind?

Where I work (a fairly large public university), auditions are handled like this:

You apply to both the university and the music school.

The university makes your academic transcript and test scores available to the faculty of the music school. The faculty then hears your audition and decides whether or not to admit you. While grades and test scores might be a factor, the audition itself is the single most important deciding factor in admission decisions. Generally speaking, if the faculty is happy with your playing and you meet the minimum requirements for admission to the university, you're in.

Also, it is important to attend a major music school at some point in your academic career. It's not terribly important when or for what degree. What I often recommend to others (and what I did) is to do your undergraduate degree at a university where you won't get lost in the crowd, study with full-time faculty, and have lots of performance opportunties - then hit a major music school for your graduate degree(s). It's also cheaper that way. There's nothing wrong (or harmful to your future career) with going to Cheap State University - provided you have a good teacher and a solid educational experience.

I agree. Julliard is not easy to get into. I auditioned with Beethoven's Appasionata, Chopin's 4th ballade and etude op.10 no.1, and prokofiev's tocatta and I still got rejected. I also found out that out of 1654 people that applied, only 136 got accepted, which is 8.2% of the applicants!!!!

Kreisler is excatly right. The process is handled much the same in all colleges/universities. We relied (I retired a few years ago) very much on the audition, but recommendations could carry equal or even greater weight. In other words, sometimes it's who you know, and who that person knows. Not unfair at all, it's a big help in screening.

Absolutely true. Over the previous decades, wonderful performer/teachers have decided to teach where they want to teach, instead of scrambling for name institutions. Sometimes, this can be a small school (small liberal arts college, less pressure, great facilities, positive faculty members in a friendly environment, etc.), or a region of the country that suits the teacher.

And then afterwards, again, it's often who knows whom, in the job search.

By the way. . . if you were looking for a job now, it is about as bad as it was in the early 1980's, from what I've heard. Institutions in higher education will be declaring financial exigency, with corresponding layoffs of tenured faculty (possible) and cutbacks in full-time faculty. Oh well, by the time you finish graduate school, things should be better!

I auditioned also and was shunned (both for BM and for MM).

The playing was fine, but I think the problem was that I auditioned cold and didn't make any contact with the teacher that I wanted to study with (Kaplinsky). A friend of mine was accepted; he may not be the best pianist in the world in terms of consistency and technique but his communication skills (verbal and at the piano) are excellent.

What Dr. Vaga said was right on. It's not what you play or what you know; it's who you know. Plus, from what some professors who went to Julliard tell me, the quality is getting worse.

I was rejected at Eastman and Rice for the same reason - not making any contact and going in cold. My major mistake was applying to the school and not to the teacher. They asked who I wanted to study with and I said "I don't know."

DOH! I was young and stupid then.

rvaga is also correct about the current job market. I was applying for jobs two years ago and put out 8 applications, got two interviews, and took the first job I was offered. This year, there haven't been nearly as many job openings. I have a friend who is currently jobless even though she's a stronger candidate than I was two years ago. Another friend of mine is on the search committee for a piano job at a mid to low sized state university for which there were 150 applicants for the position.

Next year looks to be worse, as several states have mandated cuts at public colleges and universities. Many faculty (myself included) are hesitant to leave the positions they're in - we're holding on to what we have for dear life!

Well, I have 5 years or so before I have to start looking, so hopefully things will turn around by then. So far, I've made my billions by doing collaborative work.

However, I could always just go win a major international competition, which should make the college job search easier for me.[/sarcasm]

What if you have small hands and can't even play any of them? What happens then? Will you be excused to learn them but need to learn the Beeth'vn Sonatas? Is it absolutely necessary to be able to play Chopin Etudes?

From Julliard's site:

Undergraduate: Bachelor of Music and Diploma

All undergraduate applicants must submit a standard CD or cassette tape with the application. Current pre-college students are exempt. The tape should include only Nos. 2 and 3 from the audition repertoire. Name and address should appear on both the tape and the tape cover. The entire audition program should reach a minimum of 45 minutes. Shorter programs may be subject to approval by the piano faculty.

A prelude and fugue from The Well-Tempered Clavier or another work of Bach containing a fugue. (No transcriptions are permitted.)
An entire sonata by Beethoven excluding Opp. 14, 49, and 79, or the Haydn Sonata in Eb Major, Hob. XVI:52, or the Mozart Sonata in D Major, K. 576, or one of the following Schubert sonatas: C Major, Op. 78; A Minor, Op. 143; A Minor, Op. 42; D Major, Op. 53, or one of the three posthumous sonatas, or the Wanderer Fantasie .
A substantial composition by Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Liszt, or Mendelssohn. (Etudes, nocturnes, short dances or comparable pieces are not acceptable.)
A work by a representative 20th-century composer.
One virtuosic etude by Bartók, Chopin, Debussy, Liszt, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, or Stravinsky.

Best thing is to build a relationship with a teacher there. Second best thing is to build a relationship with someone who has a strong relationship there -- either as a colleague or a former student of the teacher you wish to study with. Some teachers will "feed" their best students to faculty at Julliard they know. It does help to know someone.

Ken

It also helps to be able to read anything at sight and have no major technical hurdles...

sigh....

Ken

Both Kreisler and Mathilde make excellent points in their posts.
I started piano at the age of 15, and at the time thought it would be great to get into Julliard, Curtis or some other heavyweight conservatory. That was a dream. My main objective, though, was becoming a better musician, building repertoire and developing my technique.
It is fine to have a dream like admission to Julliard, but the reality is there are hundreds of very good players who get rejected every year from that school alone. In other words, there is nothing wrong with working up an audition for Julliard if you and your teacher agree that you are advanced enough to handle the repertoire for the audition. Just make sure there are other schools where you audition, and don't set yourself up for major disappointment if you do not gain admission to your #1 choice.
Before you even do that, you should look deep within yourself, and decide whether you have the will, inclination, dedication - oh yes - and the love for music to pursue a degree and/or a career in music. It is extremely difficult, requires a lot of hard work, and for the most part is not glamorous. Also, as was said by - I think - Mathilde, what do you want to do with a music degree?

Good points have been made above. I'll add my own experience.

For a time I worked for a conservatory where I saw talented musicians of yesteryear who were virtually starving -- making a subsistence level of existence. It wasn't pretty for these proud and talented people who had made a commitment to music and once toured throughout the world.

Fortunately, I've been gifted with a crippling lack of the basic building blocks for a career in music.

That is, I am a poor sight reader, can barely count, take forever to memorize a piece and am terrified of public performance.

Still, I love music (all kinds) and love playing -- so for 40 years I've stumbled forward. I've built a career elsewhere but have nurtured my love of music with a very decent piano that I might have difficulty having even with a Julliard degree.

I don't have to learn any pieces I don't want to. I can afford lessons with even the best of teachers -- attend numerous recitals and have a bountiful CD collection to listen to.

Music plays in my office all day. I know where my next meal is coming from.

I think most performers and teachers would tell you to get a diversified education to help prepare yourself for both a means of earning an income -- and a life with music -- even if it isn't in music.

Ken

Well said, Ken. Thanks for sharing this perspective!

Thanks. At the same time, I wouldn't beat anyone up who still wants to chase the rainbow. It is a gift of living.

I had a friend who was an attorney and at 40 she decided to abandon law to become a professional cellist. She nearly starved too -- with something like 5 students and a handful of performing gigs. Still, eventually, she found a way -- working at musical instrument store, students and some performing.

Still, it was great that she had a law degree and a portfolio to help her adventure.

I once ran a marathon while having pneumonia -- a stupid thing to do - but I tried to be "smart" about it -- and made it.

If you love music -- it is ok to follow your heart -- but also use your mind to make sure you have a way of making a living.

Ken

Comparing college to a Conservatory - the financial issue.

I have heard (and it makes sense) that there is FAR less financial aid available at a Conservatory than for a university education. What kind of endowment do you think they have?

To top it off, Conservatories are much more expensive, for the most part. Plus - you have to go and purchase a practice piano for your apartment, paying for the move. In New York City anyhow. You can't rely on the practice rooms, where (even at Juilliard, I was recently told by a student) the pianos are in terrible shape. Yes, they are Steinways, but so what?

Even at our State University (main campus in our town), I was scandalized to discover that music majors have to pay for their lessons - anything beyond half an hour a week. In fact, I think they even have to pay for that!! Beyond tuition!

And who wants to graduate with a massive debt from a Conservatory, with such an uncertain financial future?

Of course, if your parents are paying...

Ariel,I believe that most Conservatories and colleges charge for your weekly lesson in addition to your tuition.When I was an undergraduate, I also had to pay for my half-hour lesson in my minor each week.This was'nt too bad financially,since I had a full keyboard scholarship which helped pay my tuition.

I was pretty much in the same boat, so I know from personal experience that it can be done. I am a senior in High school now, but next year I will be going to be a piano performance major at the Hartt school of music. (Part of Hartford U.) It is a difficult road, but it can be done. These are some things I suggest:

1. Get your audition repertoire ready now, so you have a lot of performance experience with it by the time you get there. Learn a Beethoven sonata, a large romantic work (Like a Chopin scherzo or ballade, but not something small like a Waltz) a Bach prelude and Fugue, a modern work (Like a Debussy piece or Ligeti) and some schools, like Juilliard, will ask for an etude.

2. Play this program for an audience, since it will help tremendously.

Start practicing 6 hours a day and you have a good chance of getting into a good music school if you go to a JC first and take the transfer route for your undergrad. Continue, and Julliard for you Master's won't be too far out of reach.

Mike

you've gotten some wonderful advice, here. i especially like ken's perspective.

my first piano teacher, who had an MM from Indiana, ended up going back to school in her 40s to get a law degree. she was sick and tired of being poor. after one year at the biggest corporate law firm in new york city, she owned a new steinway B and was treating all her starving musician friends to nights at the met opera with her season tickets.

she hated corporate law, but ultimately found her niche practicing arts law, helping artists and musicians. i've been out of touch with her now for some years, but the last time we saw each other, she couldn't be happier or more fulfilled.

i would caution against going to any conservatory straight out of high school, simply because a career in music is such a long shot, and it's important to have the skills and academic background that will give you other options. while i do not advocate using college as career training, i do think the classical liberal arts education is the solidest foundation you can lay for any career.

learning how to read, write, speak, and think critically are invaluable no matter what your future career.

also, why julliard? there are other conservatories that will give you as solid a musical foundation but aren't so stressful. i went to mannes college and it was a lovely place full of great cameraderie--not killer competition--with peers.

having said all that, if your heart is set on an undergrad degree from julliard, then go for it! get honest feedback on your playing, and then get to work on fixing what needs to be fixed.

Your /sarcasm is well placed!

In case you're interested in the academic job thing, I can tell you that the top 2 things that get people jobs are:

1) Good recommendations
2) Teaching ability and experience

Performance ability is important, but it's definitely in 3rd place.

It also helps to be able to communicate effectively both verbally and in writing. It also helps to have connections. (Not with the place you want a job, but in the music world in general.)

One of our faculty members will probably retire in 5 years, I'll look you up.

adding to pique's point...

my teacher always felt that the principal teacher was more important than the school. if this person was at julliard, curtis, indiana, wherever -- that is where you want to be...

when you find a young artist you admire, find out who they studied with and whose teaching they found most important to their career. that may guide you. whether teacing or performing you'll find that a huge number of great musicians did not come from julliard -- not saying it isn't a great school - but i can name many, many fine musicians who did not study there.

ken

Wow...
This post has been really informative!

Now for another question:

You all keep talking about the "other schools" other than Julliard, NEC, Peabody, etc that are really good. What are some of these schools? I want to go to a good school for my grad degree. But I feel like I just do not belong at the top conservatories ( though I am still looking for a competitive one, with good teachers). Where should I be looking?

Keep the tips coming, guys...I am learning alot that might help me in the very near future ( I will be starting the audition process in the fall! yikes!)

Pianomuse,you might want to consider Shenandoah University,formerly Shenandoah College and Conservatory of Music,Oberlin,or Bowling Green.Of the three Shenandoah might be the toughest to get into.I did my undergrad studies there.It was very much geared to performance,and very competetive,but worth it.

PianoMuse,

Part of the answer comes from what do you want to do?? If you are only thinking music, that's one thing, but are you thinking of a backup strategy if you don't become an NBA superstar?

Even in music, are you thinking pedagogy or performance? Got to be pretty specific. I'd feel better if you said you were pursuing a dual major of accounting and music or even english and music.

Again, talk to people who are living the life you are dreaming of and speak with them...but to do that, you need to know yourself and be able to articulate that. Read "What Color is Your Parachute" for good ideas.

If you're planning on being the next Brendel or Horowitz...be prepared for disappointment...

Ken

Off the top of my head:

The University of...
...Michigan
...Oklahoma
...Kansas
...South Carolina
...Maryland (College Park)
...Illinois (U-C)
...Colorado
...Wisconsin
...Indiana
...Texas
...North Texas
...Houston
...Missouri Kansas City (a conservatory)
...Southern California (private, expensive)

and

Louisiana...
Florida...
Michigan...
and Arizona...

...State University

And of course all the "major" schools/conservatories:

CIM (Cleveland Institute of Music)
CCM (College-Conservatory in Cincinnati)
Oberlin
Hartt
Curtis
New England Conservatory
Peabody
Juilliard
MSM (Manhattan School of Music)
SUNY - Stonybrook
Rice
Mannes

And for popular music:

Berklee College (in Boston, not Berkeley)
Belmont University (in Nashville)

And I'm sure I've forgotten plenty of other obvious ones. Find more here:

http://www.music.indiana.edu/music_resources/som.html#usa

More about the non-Conservatory route...

You know Jon Nakamutsu (winner of the Van Cliburn eight years ago), dutiful son of cautious Japanese parents, did not attend a Conservatory. In fact, he got his college degree in language teaching, and only after THAT - and I mean, not only after college, but after a hard day in and out of the classroom, he went on to practice.

He was sure he didn't have a chance in the van Cliburn, against all the Conservatory graduates, including those from overseas, like Russia, who had been groomed and coddled from an early age just for piano careers. Kind of like they do the Olympics.

He did win! We heard him a few years ago and he was unbelieveable.

That doesn't mean it's the norm. But the norm, unfortunately, is the wild, expensive gamble, lots of hard work to graduate from a Conservatory, and then...teaching piano or working in a Jr. High Music Department, struggling to "carve out" time for practicing as my son's piano teacher says (he's a university piano prof).

IPersonally, I advocate for a liberal arts education with a good music program and a really good piano teacher- to be carefully identified and (good point!) contacted in advance of the application procedure.

It's not that I don't approve of dreaming - my father was a successful professional (visual)artist,and my mother also did some portraiture, but they were Fine Arts majors at a top university too.

Well, I guess it's the financial angle for me when it comes down to it. If that's not a problem, either in paying for it or surviving afterwards, then a Conservatory is just dandy.

Ariel

Ariel,again Shenandoah,a top music school with a lot of financial aid to students.I did it,I also had to work while at school,but came away with two degrees.I knew I did'nt want to perform professionally for the rest of my life,not in my temperament,but I have been teaching for 15 years,and will have my tuning business full-time after I retire.It can be done.

Ariel,

You are definately not the only one that is not rich. I still play on a tiny 66 key keyboard and am personally saving up for a 'real' piano (hopefully with some help from my parents).

I too shudder when I look at tuition for the conservatories. The cost is kinda overwhelming to look at, but I hope that I could attend one.

I'm not completely set on Julliard, I was also looking at peabody, manhattan, and the others.

Thank you all for your wonderful comments!

PS- what is the name of the school where tuition is free too those who get accepted...

The tuition isn't really that bad after scholarhips and government federal aid. It can decrease a great deal. The average tuition at these music schools are about $20,000, so it isn't rare to be able to recieve a good scholarship, covering half or more of the price.

Yah thats not that bad . It is still steep but managable. I don't get Federal Aid being a Canadian.

Thanks for the comments.

Thanks for all the replies!

I love performing, but I am realistic, and I know that I cannot go professional. I REALLY love teaching, so I have a feeling I am going to end up teaching private lessons.

The thing is, I want to be teaching them on a fairly high level...perhaps even at a college one day.

So I am looking for a good teacher, and a school with good performance opportinuties. I will probably be going in as performance ( though that's not what I want to do in life).

I will definatly check out the other schools that were listed.

That's not true. Scholarships for undergrads are very hard to come by at most schools, making unwitting 18 year-olds decide if they should take out a $15,000 loan or not. Most schools now give out only one full scholarship per department per year. Oberlin offered me $4,000 out of $32,000. Thankfully, CCM could give me in-state tuition and I ended up paying only $6,000 for my whole undergrad education.

What we're seeing is more and more people making bad financial decisions in their youth and declaring bankruptcy as soon as they get out of college.

if you really want to teach at a high level, whether in college or privately, i would recommend that, after you get your BM in performance, you get an MM in piano pedagogy.

i have studied with some well known teachers who studied with very famous pianists. most of these teachers were focused on performance in their own careers.

the teacher i have now is the very best piano teacher i have ever had. she is not famous. she did not study with anyone famous, so far as i know. she has a performance career in addition to her teaching, and is a wonderful pianist, with impeccable taste and musicianship, but she is still a small-town girl, who went to a non-illustrious music school, and who teaches privately in a small town. she has taught also at the university level.

what makes her such a special teacher who can outshine teachers who studied at the moscow conservatory and with sviatoslav richter?

i'm convinced it is because she focused on piano pedagogy in her studies, and has an honest fascination with the process of how students learn. most performers do not have that interest, and it shows in their less than wonderful teaching.

while my teacher may not have a recognizable name as a pianist, she is very well known in the pedagogy world, and is a regional leader in the field. many of her adult students are piano teachers--she teaches them how to teach. teaching is itself its own art, and you won't learn it by studying performance.

Wonderful thread! Thanks to all who posted.

A friend of mine got into the U. of Michigan's music school as an undergraduate piano major [Ann Arbor], but soon realized she didn't want that. She changed her major a couple of times - no problem if you're at a major university - graduated with honors, and went to law school at Emory in Atlanta, which she loved.

I can recommend the U. of Michigan most strongly. The Music School is very beautiful, and the university is rated one of the best. Whoever visits Ann Arbor will want to attend there! Out-of-staters will need good grades, though I wonder if music majors might have a special application procedure.

Another friend began piano at age three and got into Juillard after completing high school. She graduated as a virtuoso, then studied with Leon Fleisher at Peabody. At age 30 she'd had enough: she was teaching children privately from 3 until 10 pm, which forbade much of a social life, and her career wasn't moving. She moved back to her home town and lived with her parents while studying computer science. After a few years she had a BS and MS in that field and got a job. She of course still played piano... for herself and in public as a member of a trio, and had the occasional student (me! She was a fabulous, fabulous teacher!).

QUESTION: Does Juilliard have any age requirement? If not, the initiator of this thread might also consider delaying application until his/her twenties (or even later), say, when the appropriate level for strong consideration has been achieved.

To CrashTest and Brendan (as appropriate),

Yes, Brendan! That's what I was saying about the overall cost, and no, CrashTest, that sounds like wild fantasy (your figuring of the cost and chances of substantial aid).

After all, Crash, you only cite 20K per annum for tuition! a) that's about 2K less annually than it really is for the next academic year b) it will go up every year, well beyond the inflation index, like all schools of higher ed and c) it doesn't include room and board, and associated expenses - INCLUDING LESSONS! Thus bringing the grand total with travel allowance and so on, to well over 35K just to start.

That's without even figuring in lessons, music and texts, and a personal practice piano which is likely to be needed. (Plus there's probably a piano at home to keep in tune!).

Which makes the average Conservatory education more expensive than an Ivy League School, with much less financial aid available and much less wherewithall (probably) to repay big loans after graduation, with a B.M. in Piano!! If you're lucky enough to qualify for subsidized loans, that is.

And thank you very much, curry and "Love the Late..." for your practical and supportive remarks. I do hear you, curry, that there are other musical options, and I sure give you credit for your stamina and dedication in reaching your goals!!

I still think this must be a rich person's Forum, if a Conservatory education is something everyone! Well, what do you expect - piano playing is still an elite pursuit.

I have spent over $200 on music and Theory books for my son so far this year. Lessons are costing us $100/wk. And I still haven't gotten him a grand (the pursuit of which brought me to the Forum). Luckily, he's able to study AP Music Theory at our local High School this year - a grueling but very worthwhile (free) course...

Many sympathies "Love the Late..." for your instrument dilemma, especially with the divorce. My son's dad and I are no longer married, and it makes his practicing really hard - not to mention the motivation, as his father doesn't support his Music, emotionally or financially

Another thing a professor of mine told me that I thought was really enlightening:

A good teacher is a good teacher no matter what institution they teach at. The difference is that at a modest music school, you might get your professors and a couple hundred people at your senior recital from the connections your teacher has. At Julliard, you'll get that, and the New York Times, and booking agents of the prestigious venues around town all because of your teacher's connections. Who they know is extremely important.

Mike

that is true. i went to grad school at columbia university for precisely that reason. but that still don't pay the bills if you are in a profession that is saturated with talented people.

anyone who is thinking of making a career in music had better very carefully calculated their odds for success. to be talented is NOT enough. certainly connections are at least as important, as are tremendous drive and ego. but also, you have to have something extra. and so few have it.

unless you are extraordinary, don't expect to make much of a living from it. and if you were extraordinary you would probably know by now. it's fine to pursue a dream--i believe in that--but realistic self-assessment is also critical.

the salesman who sold me my piano was a recent graduate of julliard. so was the salesgirl at the shop across the street, who nearly sold me a piano. both are brilliant, brilliant pianists. the guy who sold me my piano is a raging talent.

he is barely scraping by, trying to get concert dates in the city. he deserves to succeed. he is creating web sites to put food on the table. i'm sure he is deeply in debt, even if he had a full scholarship. living in nyc is outrageously expensive.

it is a very tough route to take. personally, i'm not sure i'd have the stomach for it even if i had the talent, though i would be tempted to try. for those who don't have stellar talent, i think it is folly, unless you are a dreamer with money to burn.

I don't know if this is changing the topic too much or not but it sounded like it belonged in this thread. I want to teach college as well, probably piano or theory or history or something like that. But I want to be a Piano Performance major because I see that as the best way to get better rather then if I was a Music History or theory major which I'm guessing would focus more on book work then performance. And I was just wondering if it was a stupid idea to get a perfomance degree if I can't do anything with it besides perform (which I understand is not the best way to go). And I would rather not go into private teaching, maybe on the side but not as my main job. I'm guessing that because I want to teach at a college I need my Docterate which I am more then happy and excited to get because I love learning as much as possible. But anyways if anyone had any suggestions on what route I should look into I'de be very appreciative...!

Very good point Pique, it's something my father explained to me when I was younger and although I studied piano for many years, I ended up moving into the world of IT for precisely what you explain. My father was, for perhaps 40 years, at the top of the UK session world for what concerns piano and did very well out of it. He was in the right place at the right time with the right people. The fact that he was a bl**dy good pianist also helped

I knew that to make a decent living, I had to be one of the best or I would starve (exaggerating, but you get the idea). I also knew that IT was up and coming and there were not enough people to fill the gaps being created. It was a place where even if you weren't the best, you could get by.

Fortunately, it worked out very well for me so now I can indulge in both worlds quite happily If I really wanted to give a concert or recital once in a while, I could pay for a hall for an evening, rent a decent piano, market the event and offer free admission ...

All this just to re-enforce Pique's point of weighing up the risks of the music business. Talent really is just a part of the equation when it comes down to it.

Gary.

I know several people who did performance degrees for their bachelors, then did graduate work in theory or musicology. It's not unusual.

I can see how that can be true in New York, where the cost of living is outrageous and there are more good pianists than you can count, but from my experience it's not true for all places.

I've never had difficulty supporting myself (even while in school). There are so many opportunities at all levels - it's not hard to find a church job, it's not hard to find students, and if you play well, the phone will ring. I've done everything from the seediest gigs to playing with orchestras and I can say that your reputation will speak for itself. I don't live like a king, but I have a nice apartment and make more than enough to pay my bills and get by.

Competitions are overrated. I made more money this year from gigs than from all of the competition winnings in my whole life. heck, when I enter a competition now I only really care about performing. When Van Cliburn won the Tchaikovsky, there were less than 50 international piano competitions. Now, there are almost 2,000 with only 6 that really matter. What does that say about winning one?

To reiterate: if you play well and work for a variety of people, the phone will ring. For the people who stay in practice rooms 10 hours a day trying hit it big in the Van Cliburn, the presumption that music is a financially insecure career becomes a reality.

thanks for providing another perspective, brendan. i was of course addressing the ambitions of the originator of the thread, who dreams of going to julliard, which is in new york. and also responding to the person who talked about the importance of connections as a reason for going to a place like julliard. you only need those kinds of connections if you are seeking a concert career.

i am heartened to hear that you are able to live comfortably playing the piano professionally in cincinnati. i live a very small town, and while we have lots of good pianists here, it is nice to think that if i ever developed my talent enough, i might be able to have a career of some sort in music after all. i think the key is to have realistic ambitions, rather than dreaming of being the next rubinstein.

Pianomuse,

Here's hoping your grad school search goes well! Good luck on fufilling your dream!

(shameless plug )

The University of Houston does have a good music school. The head of the keyboard department, Nancy Weems, was my very first piano teacher. She won the International Bach Competition and was also nominated for a Grammy in the past. She is a wonderful teacher. In fact, my parents bumped into someone whose son is studying piano at UH and is really enjoying himself!

(end shameless plug)

Again, this thread is fascinating. A few more morsels that might be of interest...

The initiator of the thread might want to read a book chronicling the Van Cliburn competition (1985 I believe), which actually examines the whole competition thing in detail. There is a *lot* on what a pianist's life at Juilliard is like - approximately, it's usually all day and evening in the practice room, with a few minutes out for meals. Reading this book made me NOT want to attend Juilliard, ever! [To find the book, search on piano competitions.]

A newspaper article some years ago mentioned how many aspiring NY pianists studied with TWO teachers simultaneously - one to improve at the instrument, the other solely for his connections - and of course neither knew about the other teacher. As many posters have pointed out, concertizing is a really political business.

Janina Fialkowski in an interview mentioned that as she was entering the Rubinstein competition, she had already applied to law school and thought she would be going. Fortune smiled on her: Rubinstein himself heard her, was entranced by her playing, and smoothed her way to a successful career (Janina mentioned that AR would insist on inserting a clause in his contracts, that Janina be given a concert by the promoters too). She made it, but how many enjoy such patronage?

Making a living in music seems quite realistic, at least near a big city. A friend with a Masters in piano gets $20 - 25/half hour teaching kids, which she does two days a week, and devotes the rest of her time to another artistic interest. A pianist I know with a Bachelors from U. of CA/Berkeley works in business all day, then teaches from 5 - 8 at the local piano store. He told me he makes around $20 grand per year just from his parttime piano teaching, which nets him $17/half hour using the pianos in the store and their connections to get students.

BUT........ sometimes you gotta go for your dreams!!! Alfred Brendel stated that he didn't decide to be a pianist until he was 17 or 18. Until then he had dabbled in several of the arts. If you feel that you have something special to say musically, and are very determined, I see no reason why your current level of playing as you described it, and being age 15, should deter you from giving it a shot. If that's what you want to do, bearing in mind all the caveats from our wise, experienced fellow posters.

One thing that was mentioned again and again in reading many interviews with the concert pianists who had 'made it', was: it's not about being a mechanicus with fabulous fingers. Ashkenazy, for example, says this is the typical Russian pianist (c. 1980), and he says nearly all of them are really dull: They don't have much to say.

What it *IS* about, they say, is being able to breathe life into the score, and having the technique to do it; technique being (they say) the ability to make many varied sounds come from the piano, whose native sound is not very interesting, actually [Yep, that's what they say!] For instance, having the ability to play the melody like an oboe or a violin or a singer, rather than with just the sound of a piano. [Technique of course consists of many other things too, like phrasing and so forth.] The interviewees all decried those who focused on rapidity and playing every note correctly... "So what! That's not the point at all, is it!"

That still means he has to work an average of 12 extra hours per week - every week - to earn that extra $20,000.00 per year. Given what taxes take out of it, and given what amounts to a lot of extra time after a full-time job, I wouldn't necessarily agree with you that this way of doing it is making much of a quality addition to his living.

Regards,

This is very true. I made the mistake of playing well on a few gigs last year, and I've been playing an average of a concert every 10 days since January 1. (And could have done more had I not turned people down.)

The worst was two weeks ago. Played with a violist on Tuesday, a violinist on Thursday, travelled on Friday for a solo recital over the weekend, then back home and played a recital with a trio the following Wednesday.

I used to wish my phone would ring. Now I just want it to shut up!

Kreisler, all of those hard hours! How can you possibly take it all?!

Yeah...but isn't it great how you can play the gigs that you want to instead of playing something because you need the $$$ (spousal obligations notwithstanding)? I got to play on some great concerts this year because I didn't say yes to everything.

Thought all who posted on this thread might enjoy seeing what Rosalyn Tureck played for her Juillard entrance exam. By chance, happened to see this last night. Of course, it was long long ago, probably in the 1930s or 1940s. [She became a famous Bach specialist.]

She played a Bach Prelude and Fugue from the WTC, Beethoven Sonata op. 2 # 2, Chopin Ballade in G minor, and Liszt's La Campanella. The book said the committee only asked her to play portions of the latter three.