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Posted By: Frank Illenberger Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/08/21 09:30 PM
I am Frank, a pianist and amateur piano tuner from Frankfurt, Germany. I have been reading this forum for a couple of years. I have learned many practical things from you about the craft but until now I have never written a post. For most of the time I have been using TuneLab and Anthony Willey's fine Pianometer app for tuning my instruments. In March 2020, because of the Covid pandemic we had a strict lockdown here in Germany. Since the mathematics of piano tuning had always fascinated me and I now had some spare time, I started studying this topic a little deeper. After some research, I was electrified by the idea of implementing my own piano tuning software. I always liked the tunings TuneLab and especially Pianometer produced, but I thought I could perhaps achieve a better user experience. Naive as I was, I fancied that with my background in physics and software development this should be an easy task. But as it soon turned out, it was more complicated than I first thought.

Now it's one year later, and despite some new gray hairs I think I've finally managed to solve most of the puzzles around algorithmic piano tuning. I poured everything into an iOS app which is now in the beta testing phase. It uses a similar approach as Pianometer in automatically weighting tuning intervals by measuring partial strengths, but it has a different UI and lots of improvements in details like attack & note detection and noise resilience.
To my amateur ears, it is already on par with the established programs, but I would be very interested in the opinion of you professionals.
I know, that this forum is no place for soliciting. I just want to ask you if you would be interested in playing around with the new software and perhaps share some feedback. If this were the case, I could post a link to the free beta test or send it directly to interested folks.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/08/21 09:42 PM
I would be interested for sure. I own tunelab, pianometer and verituner.

All the best.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/08/21 10:04 PM
Great, thanks!
I have setup a website which has a red "Public Beta" button in the top right corner: https://www.pianoscope.app/
Or you can use this direct link to the beta: https://testflight.apple.com/join/qIzcnoY8

To install the beta you first need to install Apple's TestFlight app. Don't worry about the pianoscope app asking you to start a trial or make an in-app purchase. In the TestFlight environment no actual money transaction is created. It is just for testing purposes.

Jean, as you are from Québec: If you find any quirky terminology in the French localization, please let me know. My school French is not the best…
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/08/21 11:28 PM
Thanks. I just tried now but it seems like I have to download the latest iOS 14.4.1

I’m not sure I want to do that yet as I usually wait before updating.

I’m still interested and will look into it.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 12:37 AM
Hi Frank,

So.... how does this app differ from Verituner? I hope that's not a loaded question.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 01:28 AM
From a quick look, it seems to be closer to PianoMeter than Verituner.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 06:01 AM
You shouldn't need the latest iOS 14.4.1 to run pianoscope. iOS 14.0 should suffice. What iOS version are you running?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 07:05 AM
Hi John,

to calculate their tunings, apps like Verituner or TuneLab take an approach which is similar to the procedure of aural tuning. In a first step they start from the given concert pitch and build a temperament octave, like A3-A4. From the notes in the temperament octave they go outwards and minimize the beating of a fixed tuning interval in every region, like 6:3 for A0-A3, 4:1 for A4-C8. You as a tuner have to decide, which tuning intervals are suitable for an individual instrument.

pianoscope on the other hand first builds a model of the inharmonicity and the partial strengths of all notes of an individual instrument. You have to play a sample of 12 notes, each for a second. From this it calculates a tuning by GLOBALLY optimizing a whole set of slow-beating intervals, like fourths 4:3, 8:6, fifths 3:2, 6:4, octaves 2:1, 4:2, 6:3, 8:4, 10:5 - twelfths 3:1, 6:2, 9:3, double octaves 4:1, 8:2, nineteenths and triple octaves. As pianoscope knows the strength of the partials before it constructs a tuning, it can individually adjust the weights for all intervals according to it. You only have to decide, which tuning style you or the customer prefer in principle, if you for example prefer pure twelfths over octaves, or want a compromise of both. You do not need to make decisions for an individual instrument.

So pianoscope should be able to create a fully balanced sound of the full scale, because for every note it is checking the beating across multitude of intervals against many, many other notes, which would be nearly impossible for a human tuner to do. Verituner cannot perform a global optimization of the tuning, as it requires you to tune in a fixed sequence and it measures the inharmonicity as you go.

pianoscope has a chart which shows you how pure all the intervals will be in the resulting tuning for a given instrument. Even before tuning, these deviation curves can show how much potential there is in an instrument for a given style.

pianoscope does not (yet) have the ability to use unequal temperaments like Verituner.

On the UI side, pianoscope guides you through the setup, so that you as a pro should be able to start tuning right away without having to read the manual. For tuning feedback, it uses a straight horizontal scale and strobe instead of circular ones. It makes good use of the screen real estate even on small iPhones and tries to be a good iOS citizen by for example adjusting its appearance to dark mode or by altering the size of its texts for people with weak vision.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 02:43 PM
Thanks for the explanation!

So it uses the 8 samples (or so) to create a model of the inharmonicity of the piano scale? It will be interesting to see how well this adapts to poorly scaled pianos - that's where I see most of the tuning challenges at the break and going down into the bass as the inharmonicity data for each note varies from the model.

I'll have a chance to experiment some this weekend at the U, though there aren't any spinets there...

Ron Koval
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 02:54 PM
I have a dedicated iPhone 6 with my apps on it. I am still on iOS 13. I will do a software update today and try the app sometime this week.

I am looking forward to it.

Will it have a pitchraise function?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 03:45 PM
Is it an iPhone 6s? If it is only an iPhone 6, you might be out of luck, because iOS 14 requires at least an iPhone 6s.
Yes, pianoscope has a pitch raise function. If you are curious in the meantime, you can check out the user manual: https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html
It also has a section on pitch raising: https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_pitch_raise_pro_only
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 04:14 PM
You can sample as many notes as you like. For poorly scaled pianos it is desirable to add more notes around the tenor break to get a better representation of the inharmonicity changes. Twelve notes is only the required default.
You can even simply sample all notes, which only takes about two minutes.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 10:12 PM
Thanks for the app Frank! I just submitted some feedback. When you highlight an outlier inharmonicity measurement, I don't get the red X to delete it.

Otherwise, it all looks great! BTW, what is used to compute the strobe display? A combination of all the audible partials or just the fundamental?

Paul.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 10:30 PM
I tried to run it today, but it must not have had mic access because I couldn't get the measuring to hear anything. I'll play with it again when I have more time.

Excellent news on the app using as much data as the user wants to input.

I've thought for a long time that there must be a way to figure the stretch first - tuning a ladder of notes to find the optimum for each piano instead of working from the middle outwards...

Thanks!

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 10:36 PM
pianoscope normally asks for microphone permission when you first start recording. If you somehow rejected this permission, you can enable it later through the iOS settings app via Privacy > Microphone.
If it still does not work you can try to force terminate the app by flicking upwards in the app switcher and then restart it.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/09/21 11:46 PM
I just tried it as well, but have not had a chance to tune with it. Is there any way to change the basic offset?

Thanks
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 12:04 AM
Thanks - I'll read through the guide before trying again - I can see where I missed a step in the measure - there is another red measure in the upper left after pressing measure in the reminder screen to activate the listening mode.

Ron Koval
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 12:10 AM
Ok, I found where to change the offset. I should explore a bit more the app before asking questions here. Sorry about that.

Thanks
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 03:23 AM
This seems interesting. I very much prefer a horizontal beat display to a rotating one. I presume display movement to the left is flat and to the right is sharp from reference?

What measurement technique does it employ?

Apple is warning us we need to download IOS14.4.1 now. There is a security risk that has just been discovered and they want to patch it now.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 04:03 AM
I spent some time with it today. Measures IH instantaneously, so measuring 88 takes no time. I haven't done a complete tuning. But I can make one suggestion: the horizontal indicator is slightly opaque. Perhaps it can it be made a little easier to see.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 07:53 AM
Yes, movement to the left means flat compared to the tuning target, and sharp to the right. To hint to that there are b and # symbols on the respective sides of the tuning scale.

What exactly do you mean by "measurement technique"? pianoscope uses fast Fourier transformation with peak correction with a precision of better than 0.01 cents across the scale and a sophisticated algorithm to gather the partials from the spectrum.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 08:10 AM
Thanks for the suggestion. I will add a setting for the contrast.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 08:18 AM
Oh yes, thank you for reporting this regression, Paul! I fixed it. You can update to the latest version via the TestFlight app.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 12:01 PM
In build 367 I increased the default contrast of the tuning strobe and added a setting with which you can increase the contrast even further. You can update to the new build using the TestFlight app.
Thanks for your suggestion!
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Oh yes, thank you for reporting this regression, Paul! I fixed it. You can update to the latest version via the TestFlight app.

Thanks Frank - the new version auto-installed and I can confirm that issue is fixed!

Cheers,

Paul.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 01:49 PM
I will be trying it on a piano this morning. I noticed that in the instrument menu I can name the manufacturer, model and serial number, but I can't edit the name. A touch "New Piano" but nothing happens.

Thanks
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by accordeur
I will be trying it on a piano this morning. I noticed that in the instrument menu I can name the manufacturer, model and serial number, but I can't edit the name. A touch "New Piano" but nothing happens.

Thanks

I was able to set the name when I did "create new ..."

Paul
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by accordeur
I will be trying it on a piano this morning. I noticed that in the instrument menu I can name the manufacturer, model and serial number, but I can't edit the name. A touch "New Piano" but nothing happens.

Thanks

I was able to set the name when I did "create new ..."

Paul

Yes I just noticed that. I think since I did not put a name when I started the file, I now can't edit it. But I can edit the other parameters.
Off for the day. Thanks
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 02:10 PM
You can edit the name by renaming the file in the documents browser. This is the standard way of doing it under iOS. I have a short section on this in the manual: https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_managing_documents

But I admit, it is confusing to have the disabled text field with the name there. Confusion is not good. I will try to improve this.
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 03:28 PM
The measurement techniques I am aware of are: Direct frequency count, Frequency comparison (strobe technique), and Period Average.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 05:07 PM
Ah, now I know what you are referring to. The methods you mention are used for analog / hardware based frequency detection. In software you can apply other methods, which however have their roots in the methods you mention. One is the fourier transformation with which one can determine the spectrum of a sampled signal with very high accuracy. You can imagine a fourier transformation being like a frequency comparison of many, many frequencies at the same time. For the math behind it, here is a nice video giving a good intuition for it:

The accuracy of the fourier transformation is only as good as the accuracy of the AD sampling, which is quite good on Apple hardware. I rarely encountered Apple iPads whose sample precision resulted in an ABSOLUTE frequency error of about 0.7 cents. But the RELATIVE precision is always excellent. If absolute tuning precision is vital for you, you can calibrate pianoscope to give precise results even on those devices. See https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_calibration

I am proofing the algorithmic precision of my fourier transformation in pianoscope with automated tests. These synthesize hundreds of test signals out of a mixture of partials of known frequencies and check the error with which the fourier transformation can extract them again.
Overall this results in a precision which is better than 0.01 Cents across the full scale.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 05:07 PM
Just a question for the beta trial - can you change from the standard to the pro version for testing? Or is your trial purchase "locked in" once you have made the selection?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 05:54 PM
The trial always gives you access to all the features. Features which are only available in the pro version are marked in the menu with [PRO].
There is also a feature comparison page on the website: https://www.pianoscope.app/en/features/comparison

In the beta version however, you do not have to use the trial mode. In the beta, you can simulate the purchase of the standard or pro version without paying anything.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
The trial always gives you access to all the features. Features which are only available in the pro version are marked in the menu with [PRO].
There is also a feature comparison page on the website: https://www.pianoscope.app/en/features/comparison

In the beta version however, you do not have to use the trial mode. In the beta, you can simulate the purchase of the standard or pro version without paying anything.

Sorry for the confusion - there's two uses of the word "trial". I meant "trial" is in "testing the beta" and wondered if you can also upgrade from standard to pro in the beta, or is an individuals testing of the beta tied to the specific "purchase" they made. I was just worried that I only got one chance to simulate a purchase and the next one would be real!

Paul.
Posted By: Andymania Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 09:09 PM
isch abe gar keine iPhone!
gibt's das auch für Android?
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 09:11 PM
OK finished a "balanced" tuning of my Hailun 218. IH measurements are basically instantaneous, which in itself is interesting, because as everyone knows IH measurement is usually quite slow on EVERY other tuning program on the market. (Perhaps that aspect of the program could be explained, without of course giving away any trade secrets).

Excellent result, really, I can't complain. I'm a Verituner guy, so the strobe took a little getting used to. I know it's used in many other programs, but I'm used to the Verituner spinner. The strobe combined with the red line indicator make the process pretty seemless, however, once you get used to it.

One quibble: I got the occasional "freeze up" in the middle of tuning a note. Everything just froze. The solution is simple. Just play an alternative note: that seems to bring the program back alive. I had to "lock" notes in while tuning above C7. Otherwise the tuner bounced around too much to other notes not being tuned. I was even able to tune A7 and up with precision, which can be difficult with some programs.

Excuse this question if the answer is in the manual, but is the "balanced" setting relate in any special way to SIZE of the piano? Put it differently: most programs will have settings for small, medium, and large grands; is this program different in that respect?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 09:37 PM
You can safely upgrade in the beta. You won't be charged.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 09:48 PM
Yes, the measurements are fast - I went ahead and measured all the way from the bottom up using a mute to just hear one string - watching the graph update was illuminating for the Yamaha GA1 and GH1 that I tuned today.

The program (balanced) really did a good job at making the octaves work going down through the messy break on these instruments. When I switched to pure octave, there was hardly any difference to the tuning curve.

Tried the pitch-raise.. as was stated before, if you've already measured for inharmonicity, the pitch data collected then can be used for the pitch raise pass, so that saves time. It overpulled just a little too much for my hammer technique, so I will play with the control for that.

After a few tunings, I'm getting used to the display - I really like the 'ghost' bars to use along with the red line.

It might help 'older eyes' to have something other than 0 marking the target - bolder, or a line above or something to help see from farther away.

I'd appreciate adding custom temperaments since I hardly tune in ET these days!

Ron Koval
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 09:55 PM
Edit time expired above, so to continue...

I checked the program for what I'll call "consistency of HI measurements": inotherwords, is there significant variability in the IH measurements, one from the next. The answer is NO. I remeasured the Hailun top to bottom, which took NO time at all. And the results were almost identical. That's a very good thing, in my view.

I'm curious about the manual on a related point. I used ONE string only for IH measurements. The manual doesn't specify. Is one string only measurement preferrable?

One other question: does the standard version alow a "precision" curve to be used (as in the pro-version)? Note: I tried both on my piano, and the tuning targets were nearly identical.

Final question: Tunelab pro also starts with an idealized tuning curve, and permits measurements for every note to "Non-idealize" the curve to fit any specific piano. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) How is your program different?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 10:13 PM
John, thanks for the great feedback! I am very happy, that you liked the result. On to your observations and questions.

1) The freezes you observed should not occur and should be definitely regarded as a bug. I have experienced them once during my last tuning. I will look into it and try to reproduce it. If you observe them again and discover a pattern in their occurence, please let me know.

2) The bouncing in the note detection in the high treble might be improved as well. It strongly depends on how much resonance is coming from the undamped strings. On my instruments, I mostly do not get this effect. If you like, you can use a hidden debugging feature in the app to record one of these notes and send me the recording for me to analyze. It is pretty easy to do:

- In the tune view, tap ten times on the zero in the middle of the scale. This enables the secret "Debug" item in the more menu.
- Choose the "Debug" item and select "Start Recording"
- Play a treble note which leads to the bouncing.
- Choose the "Debug" item again and select "Stop Recording"
- Chose the "Debug" item again and select "Share Recording" and send the file via E-Mail to support@pianoscope.app

3) The default tuning style is named "Balanced" because it tries to achieve a compromise between pure octaves and twelfths. The other tuning styles prefer individual intervals. You can check the interval weights it uses in the tuning curve view. pianoscope does not need to know the size or kind of the piano as it measures the individual distribution of partials anyway along with the inharmonicities.

4) There is no special secret in measuring the inharmonicity. One could take longer recordings of notes to get better averages, but from my experience, the first 1.5 seconds of a piano sound are quite representative for this purpose. What you may feel is, that I tried to reduce the latency in note detection as much as possible. For doing a fourier transformation you need a certain duration of recorded notes. For high notes, 0.1s may be enough, but to catch the lower partials of bass notes you need >0.4s. To achieve this, tuning apps need a circular buffer in which they keep the recorded audio of the last half second or so. But this buffer also introduces a latency. If you start to play a new note, there is still half a second of previous audio in the buffer. Waiting for it to be flushed out introduces latency which you might feel as sluggishness. I try to detect actual note attack events (which is surprisingly hard if you want to be resilient against background noise) and if one happens, I immediately discard the buffer contents and focus on the most recent audio. I think most other tuning apps do not care to detect attacks. They simply have a permanently streaming buffer.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 10:33 PM
Ron, thanks for testing the app! You are not alone with your request for a clearer marking of the zero. So I will look into it.

Non-equal and custom temperaments are the first features on my list once the app is stable and v1.0 has been released to the app store. Do you have any favorite temperaments you would want to see included as defaults?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 10:56 PM
If the unisons are in tune or only slightly out of tune, you do not need to mute them. In fact, the IH measurements you get from tuned unisons are better suited for calculating a tuning because they are an average of the involved strings and so the resulting tuning will not only respect the characteristics of a single string. But my algorithm is not able to derive this average if the unison is strongly out of tune so in this case you are fine with muting. I should make this clearer in the manual.

What do you mean by "precision" curve? Tuning curves for different tuning styles may be similar. This strongly depends on the instrument. Have you tried playing with the weights yourself? You can use a slider to increase and decrease weights for certain intervals and see how the deviation and tuning curves change. The deviation curves are more sensitive and interesting than the tuning curve. Check out the deviation curves for different tuning styles.

pianoscope always adjusts its tuning curve to an individual instrument. (In theory you could measure one instrument and use the tuning curve to tune a different instrument, but why should you?) However, there is the "Weighting" parameter in the settings of the inharmonicity view which lets you decide, how neatly pianoscope should follow jumps in the inharmonicity, like with poorly scaled pianos. https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_curve_settings
If you use a small weighting value, a more idealized version of the IH curve will be used and the resulting tuning curve will become smoother. You can activate the checkbox to show the "Resulting Curve" to visualize what this parameter does.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/10/21 11:21 PM
:-) I have designed pianoscope for iPhones and iPads. If it is successful, I might one day port it to Android or other platforms. But I currently do not have any plans. If you are a lucky owner of a brand new Apple Macintosh with an M1 processor, you could get pianoscope to run on it. I have not tried it yet, so I am curious myself.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 12:04 AM
Jean, in build 369 when you tap the instrument name I am now showing an alert which can take you to the document browser in which you then can rename the document. Sadly, Apple currently does only allow renaming existing documents from within the document browser.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 01:00 AM
Frank, I use a mild well temperament of my own design that I scale up or down - my daily use one is an ET replacement has a maximum offset of only 1.3 cents, but that is just enough to feel a difference. A few teachers prefer a stronger version with a maximum offset from ET of 2.1 cents. They are graphed on the Rollingball.com site under the Koval variable temperaments.

So short answer - for me, I just need to be able to enter a couple of custom temperaments!

Thanks for the fine work, I haven't run into any major problems so far. It is more just getting accustomed to the file and naming protocols!

It might also be a good idea on the tuning screen to show which stretch is selected just as a confirmation to those switching back and forth from 12ths to balanced to octaves...

Instead of Hz under the note name for the curve, is there a way to display a cents deviation from an unstretched tuning? I suppose you'd have to pick a partial or just use the Hz to create an offset for the fundamental?

Ron Koval
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 01:51 AM
So are a set number of periods of each of the partials derived by the fourier expansion compared to the elapsed time for them to accumulate?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 07:58 AM
Ron, I am glad you like it. It is a good idea to show also the tuning target as an offset from ET in cents. I will include it or add an option. And I will check if I can find a nice place for showing the selected tuning style.
And thanks for hinting me to rollingball.com. What a great web site. I did not know it before.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 08:43 AM
Ed, I am inclined to answer yes, but to my mind your question has a slight tautological touch. Perhaps I can roughly sketch out the principle in other words to clarify:

The analog/digital conversion of the audio circuits in the iPhone or iPad is the master reference clock for all measurements in pianoscope. It samples the air pressure change detected by the built-in microphone 44100 times a second. In every moment, pianoscope takes the most recent ~0.3 seconds of these samples. (The exact analysis duration varies with the tuned note, but this is not important for this argument.)

A Fourier analyis is now mathematically applied to them. It results in thousands of sinusoidal partials which when summed up again reconstruct the the original signal. The set of amplitudes of these thousands of partials is called the "spectrum" of the signal. The spectrum inherits its precision from the precision of the original A/D conversion. But not all of the spectrum amplitudes are relevant for tuning. They also contain effects from noise, background sounds and ambient reverb. But the actual musical partials of a piano tone show themselves as sharp peaks in the spectrum. pianoscope now analyzes the peak structure and applies a physical inharmonicity model to discern interesting piano tone peaks from background noise peaks. pianoscope might not pick up all the partials of the string vibration, because the soundboard might not amplify some of them or their frequency might be too low for the built-in microphone. Nevertheless, there is enough information in the partial pattern to reliably derive an inharmonicity and a base frequency from them.
The human hearing does a similar thing. You can listen to Wagner through a small radio speaker which does not reproduce any frequencies below 100Hz, but you can still musically discern the pitch of bass notes. They may sound thin, because the lower partials are not there, but your sense of pitch is still working even with a sparse partial spectrum.
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 02:49 PM
Thank you for answering. This is what I suspected. You are using a "modeled" period average.

Can your system be set to only measure within a narrow frequency band with period average? To only measure a particular partial and to have the readout in digital cents from pure ET?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 03:40 PM
Internally, I am already having this information. I currently do not present it in the user interface this way. I combine the information from multiple partials into a single weighted average which drives both the scale indicator AND the strobe.
I could add a mode for focusing on a particular partial in a future version. TuneLab does a similar thing. What would be your exact use case for it?
Posted By: AWilley Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 05:00 PM
Congratulations Frank. I'm impressed by the polish and attention to detail. I think you have avoided many of the mistakes that I made when I was first starting out. One thing I'm tempted to copy is your idea of having a free trial of full functionality. My biggest source of 1-star reviews is people who install the app thinking it's free and then realizing they have to pay money to tune their piano. I've tried everything I can think of to make it clear upfront the app isn't free short of changing it to a pay-up-front app (which is impossible after the app is published as free with in-app purchases) but people still end up feeling tricked. Your app softens that blow by actually giving them a free trial period.
Posted By: David Boyce Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 05:40 PM
I would like to add informaton about the new App to those featured on the Electronic Tuning page of my website https://www.davidboyce.co.uk/electronic-tuning.php
Would it be OK to do that, Mr. Illenberger?
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
:-) I have designed pianoscope for iPhones and iPads. If it is successful, I might one day port it to Android or other platforms. But I currently do not have any plans. If you are a lucky owner of a brand new Apple Macintosh with an M1 processor, you could get pianoscope to run on it. I have not tried it yet, so I am curious myself.

I have an M1 Mac but I don't think you can download apps that require Testflight to run. I'll be happy to try it out later though, once it's officially on the AppStore.

Paul
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 07:37 PM
Thank you, Anthony! We are all standing on the shoulders of giants and I took a lot of inspiration from your fine Pianometer.

I can feel your pain with the broken in-app purchase and review system in the Apple App Store. In my main job, I have been selling project management software for Mac and iOS for 17 years now. Apple is treating paid but free-to-download apps as if they were completely free. It would be easy for them to require a purchase before you are entitled to review an app. As a free-to-download app you even have to share the download charts with completely free apps which does not make any sense. Switching to a time-based trial won't completely alleviate these problems, as my experience shows. But there are other good reasons for time-based trials so you should give it a go. The best remedy we found to reduce silly 1-star reviews is a very short message in all caps at the beginning of the app description in the app store, like this:

*** FREE TRIAL FOR ONE WEEK WITH FOLLOWING IN-APP PURCHASE ***

And additionally you can encourage your happy customers to write real reviews. There is an API in iOS with which you can prompt the user three times per year to give a rating or to write a review (see SKStoreReviewController). It is up to you, when to call this API. You can choose a moment, when the likelihood is high that the user is in a good mood, like after he/she has completed the tenth tuning with high precision or so.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 07:43 PM
David, you are more than welcome!
Posted By: AWilley Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 09:23 PM
Thanks Frank. I had put this message at the top of the app store description (2nd sentence) with little effect.
[Linked Image]
I put a similar message as a little popup the first time people open the app, but that seemed to make things worse.

I never put a review prompt, though I've thought of doing that. The main thing holding me back is that I don't like getting those myself. Some apps seem to ask you every week without giving you a way to stop it. But if it had 3 buttons with "Yes", "Maybe later", and "Don't ask again" that would be reasonable.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 10:26 PM
I think your App Store message is far too long to solve the problem. You could try a much shorter variant.

Apple is strongly limiting the frequency of the review prompts. You can call the API a hundred times, but Apple will only prompt the user a couple of times a year. And I think they also balance it across all apps to avoid annoyance.
Posted By: Andymania Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/11/21 10:43 PM
I didn't "feel tricked", but I first took a note of Pianometer here and on your website, before going to the appstore. So I was informed. Maybe you could rename the free version to "Pianometer-trial" e.g.
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 01:09 AM
Well, it is partly a philosophical interest. I am a professional who is capable of deriving the best partial/intervallic balance across the compass of a piano by aural techniques alone. I will never cede authority to the makers of tuning instruments for pianos about how to define an "in-tune" state.

The main advantage a tuning instrument offers me is if it is able to resolve fine increments of pitch rapidly, say 0.3 cents. Once I know where a note needs to be, giving it a test blow and then being ale to resolve if it changes more quickly than the aural test can reveal would be an advantage. Strobe displays resolve fine increments slowly because you must wait for the pattern to move.

There are plenty of beats to resolve rough pitch plenty quickly, it is the slight settling that takes time to measure with a strobe display. Plus the strobe display is too sensitive in the upper treble compared to the accuracy required.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by David Boyce
I would like to add informaton about the new App to those featured on the Electronic Tuning page of my website https://www.davidboyce.co.uk/electronic-tuning.php
Would it be OK to do that, Mr. Illenberger?

Just visited the website. Terrific!

JG
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 07:52 AM
Ed, this is an interesting use case. Would you even need the device to calculate a stretch for you? If not, how should a partial-centered scale look like to suit your needs? Would it simply show the deviation from ET in cents?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 08:45 AM
Ron, in build 373 I fixed a regression which might explain why the overpull was a bit too strong for you. The overpull indicator triangles were wrongly aligned, so that their left edge pointed to the tuning target instead of their center.
Posted By: Chris Leslie Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
The measurement techniques I am aware of are: Direct frequency count, Frequency comparison (strobe technique), and Period Average.
There's also auto-correlation which is possible but I don't know if any tuning apps use it.

To implement it, the raw audio data is scanned by adjacent blocks to test if the blocks are similar. If the block sizes are successively increased in size, and the comparisons are logged in an array, a spectrum is built up. The spectrum, which is sample based not frequency based, will have peaks where any adjacent blocks are similar.

For a given audio frequency there will actually be a series of peaks spaced apart by the number of samples corresponding to that frequency. The resolution of the peak spacing is however limit by the sample rate of the audio capture, and is consequently limited to a few hertz in the centre range when the peak spacing is converted to frequency. However, the spectrum could have easily a hundred or so peaks depending on your buffer size and the particular frequency sounding. This property of repeating peaks in the spectrum enables the resolution to be increased about a hundred-fold down to the one tenth or one hundredth of a hertz by, for example, averaging all of the peak spacings.

I am sorry that this has been hard to describe, but I have done this with my hobby programming and I have used it to measure frequencies from notes on pianos that I tune in my professional life.

I am happy to share any code that I have written that implements this method.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 10:58 AM
Chris, what is your experience in using autocorrelation for piano tones? I tried to use the Yin algorithm for mere coarse note detection and it fails miserably for low notes. But I think autocorrelation in principle cannot work reliably with inharmonic signals. Especially not if you need precision.
Posted By: Chris Leslie Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 11:45 AM
The method I have described appears to be useless at measuring partials from real piano tones. They can be seen in the spectra but are weak and ephemeral. It is only the fundamental that is strong. Actually, fundamentals appear to be detected well down to quite low frequencies, but of course the periods become very long.

I don't know about the Yin algorithm but it must work differently. I just make up my own from basic principles.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 11:50 AM
Interesting. Yin is also using autocorrelation. This is the original paper: http://audition.ens.fr/adc/pdf/2002_JASA_YIN.pdf
Most of the guitar/violin tuning apps use it but they deal with harmonic spectra.
Posted By: Robert Scott Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
There's also auto-correlation which is possible but I don't know if any tuning apps use it.

I will second Frank's comment about auto-correlation and inharmonic signals. It does not work. I have another app that uses auto-correlation very successfully. It is called Engine RPM, for both iPhone and Android. It listens to the sound of an engine (lawn mower, airplane, motorcycle) and determines the RPM from the frequency extracted by auto-correlation. Although engine sounds can be really crazy with their high harmonics and lack of a fundamental and noise, they are harmonic. But with piano strings with inharmonicity, the peaks vary, depending on how the partials align on each particular cycle. In fact, there is no clear definition of a cycle because the signal is not cyclic. It does not repeat. It just keeps changing through what looks like "almost periods."
Posted By: AWilley Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 02:59 PM
I've also tried and failed in using auto-correlation to measure the pitch of piano tones. At least in a way that was useful or accurate enough for what I needed. I ran into inharmonicity issues in the bass and resolution issues in the treble.
Posted By: David Boyce Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/12/21 11:52 PM
I've added Pianoscope, with link and photo, to the Electronic Tuning page of my website https://www.davidboyce.co.uk/electronic-tuning.php
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 05:02 AM
For auto note detection, why not make a "virtual" sweep filter that is triggered by hammer knock and starts low and stops when it first gets an auto-correlation. You don't need to see any piano frequencies below about 200HZ. So that is where you could begin your sweep. There is enough fundamental in the notes of that range of the compass. Then manually "lock" the filter at that pitch to do fine measurement.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 07:42 AM
Quote
For auto note detection, why not make a "virtual" sweep filter that is triggered by hammer knock and starts low and stops when it first gets an auto-correlation

This is mathematically equivalent to finding peaks in a Fourier spectrum.

The spectrum additionally has the advantage that one ist getting the full picture and can immediately derive the inharmonicity and partial distribution across the compass which you need anyway to calculate a stretch.

And you can apply better heuristics to decide whether a transient is indeed a hammer knock or just a bird chirping or someone coughing in the background.
I still remember my frustration when six months ago I was demoing an early version of pianoscope in a piano store in Frankfurt. Before I had only tested it in my quiet home, but there people were talking in the background, coughig, kids voices etc. And my hammer knock attack dection locked on to all of them and the demo did not go well.

Quote
Then manually "lock" the filter at that pitch to do fine measurement.

This is what I am doing.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 07:54 AM
Great, thank you David!
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 12:56 PM
My sincere thanks to you guys! Your feedback so far has been amazing. I will get to work and try to include everything that is possible into the app. I will start with improving the indication of the main tuning target, the zero. Anthony had the idea of permanently using the marker triangles I use for indicating the overpull targets. I perpared a few short video clips showing some variants. They play with permutations of different aspects: Showing or not showing a zero line, showing or not showing the zero number, small and large indicator triangles, more and less contrast for the triangles.
If you want, you can vote which approach you think is best. Or maybe you have a completely different idea.

1) No Line / With Zero
2) With line, without number
3) No Line / No zero
4) No Line / Indicator In Front
5) More constrast and transparent

I already have a favorite. But as a good scientist, I won't say that until after the vote.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 02:28 PM
Mmmh, I have now tested all the variants above thoroughly but interactively they do not improve visibility. I think will try a different appoach.
Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 03:07 PM
If you understand how all the coincident partials must relate to each other in the significant intervals and their placement across the compass, you only need to be measuring one partial matching range of pitch at a time to compare the tempering. I don't want the tuning instrument to tell ME how to temper a piano. I already know that, and all who seek to attain professional status should understand this as well.

I will never cede authority to a robot about what an in-tune state in a piano is.


I do want to be able to quickly make sure the notes don't drift at a very fine level.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 03:12 PM
At the moment, the meter displays +/- 100c - the means, once you're getting close to in-tune most of the display is not used for any useful information. How about if you could have selected zooms of say +/- 10c and +/- 3c ? Of course, the strobe is useful once you're under 3c deviation too - but it would be good if the meter itself could be zoomed (and maybe a different level of smoothing as well for the smaller deviation displays that perhaps has the line stop after some short (maybe configurable) period of time at the average reading. When the line is moving around (as it inevitably does) - it's hard to know what the final value really is.

Paul.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 09:36 PM
As the scale in pianoscope is non-linear, one does not need a lot of zooming. I played a bit with automatic scale switching but it turned out to be more confusing for the user that useful. But, what I could do is offer a general setting, whether you want the scale to be from -100 to +100 or only from -50 to +50. In the latter case with a non-linear scale you would already have far more precision in the center than you would need for any real world piano.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 10:01 PM
I tuned a Kawai upright today where the display just had a tough time stabilizing. I've been running side-by-side with Verituner which must use a much stronger smoothing function in the setting I am using; it was much more stable.

I guess that is one of the trade-offs, an accurate display of the pitch over time and possibly partials fighting for dominance, or a potentially artificial stable display?

I'm realizing that it isn't really needed to measure all of the notes - just the bass up to the midrange where the dots get really linear.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Ed Sutton Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Mmmh, I have now tested all the variants above thoroughly but interactively they do not improve visibility. I think will try a different appoach.

There is a technique for learning to accurately cut chiseled notches:
Do not mark the notch with a hairline thin pencil line because the learner will spend many efforts to line up the chisel perfectly, starting over and over, and never attaining perfection.
Instead, begin with a blunt pencil and make a line wide enough that the learner can usually place the chisel edge within the line with a direct movement.
As the learner develops skill, showing smooth, even motions, make the pencil point a little less blunt and see if the learner can attain smooth working to the narrower target.
Continue as possible, but realize that good work is not about absolute perfection, it is about attaining good quality through smooth, efficient effort.

Having said this, I found that the "hole" in the zero was my "blunt pencil line." I could work smoothly by getting the line in the circle and moving on. Perhaps there could be an effect as if there was a magnifier above the zero, so that as the line approaches the zero, both of them enlarge, but the target hole in the zero is always a little wider than the line.

By the way, I appreciate the ability to choose line, strobe or cents deviation. I was surprised that I could use all simultaneously in your display, as I was never able to make friends with the TuneLab display, where each piece of information distracts my focus.

This is a very nice program.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 10:31 PM
Ron, there are settings for the responsiveness of the indicator and the strobe. If they are reacting too nervously for you, you can try to reduce the responsiveness.

https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_pitch_display
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 10:40 PM
Thank you, Ed. I am glad you like it. What really confused me in other apps was that they had so many different numbers in their displays and I could not develop an intuition which number represented the current frequency/deviation and which the target. And the solution for me was simply to attach the current values to the indicator so that they move along with it. It immediately provides an intuition of what the numbers stand for.

I like your analogy to chiseling. Today I played with removing the zero from the scale. Different configurations somehow worked, but in all the cases the zero seemed to be missing. So I decided to leave it there and simply make the zero scale line a little bit bolder.
Posted By: gwing Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/13/21 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Thank you, Ed. I am glad you like it. What really confused me in other apps was that they had so many different numbers in their displays and I could not develop an intuition which number represented the current frequency/deviation and which the target. And the solution for me was simply to attach the current values to the indicator so that they move along with it. It immediately provides an intuition of what the numbers stand for.

I like your analogy to chiseling. Today I played with removing the zero from the scale. Different configurations somehow worked, but in all the cases the zero seemed to be missing. So I decided to leave it there and simply make the zero scale line a little bit bolder.

For accurately lining up a pointer with a scale I think I might try having the gradation line about 3x the thickness of the pointer, and having the middle third a slightly lighter shade. That way the use can either settle for just getting the pointer on the mark or try to actually hit the centre line.

Congratulations on the really good documentation by the way, really well done.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 12:15 AM
Gwing, thanks. I am glad you like the documentation.

Your suggestion for the pointer is interesting. But I don't think we really need this level of frequency resolution for tuning a piano. On my iPhone X, I have 74 screen pixels for the last one cent. If every pixel counted, this would be a resolution of 0.014 cents. No piano tone is that stable that you could center it with such high precision. So I think the current way of simply-bringing-the-pointer-to-the middle-line is quite sufficient.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 01:11 AM
In the latest build 377, I implemented some of your requested features and changes:

- The overpull target indicator triangles are now larger and have more constrast.
- There is a new setting for showing the tuning target pitch in Hertz, cents from ET or both.
- There is a new setting for the width of the tuning indicator line. Depending on this setting, the scale line for the zero gets thicker as well.

I haven't updated the manual yet. I hope next week I will have some time to look into more requests and to reliably reproduce and finally fix the hanging bug.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 02:26 PM
Quote
It might also be a good idea on the tuning screen to show which stretch is selected just as a confirmation to those switching back and forth from 12ths to balanced to octaves...

Ron, in the latest build 381 I added new settings for showing the name of the tuning style and/or the concert pitch of the current instrument in the top-right corner of the tuning view. I think an off-center placement is a good choice for this kind of information as you don't want to have it in focus all the time when you are tuning.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 03:11 PM
Hi Frank,

just a thought on the tuning curve display. Maybe you could add the name of the style selected to the header of that page rather than just "tuning curve" - then you can see at a glance what style you're actually using without having to go to the style selector sub-page?

Paul.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 03:24 PM
Hello Frank,

I am really enjoying the speed that the app takes measurements and the fact that inharmonicity and pitch raise are taken at the same time. I am sure I will have other things to add, but for the moment the spelling on the Pitch Raising window is written "Pitch Rasising". Just a typo I am sure.

A very nice app!
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 06:42 PM
I've been doing a lot of pitch raises - for me, it would be good to have the scale numbers reduced in intensity to help focus on the arrows. Today I found myself focusing on the zero.. the new wider bar fits right inside and is a great help at finding the target!

As an explanation, I work based on time, not tunings for a local university with variable indoor humidity. I find that it is the best use of my time and results for the students is to do single pass 20-minute tunings for the practice rooms. That's been the reason for my search for an accurate mode of a single-pass pitch raise to use as a "touch-up" pitch-floating way to keep the practice room pianos in decent playing condition.

Ron Koval
Posted By: gwing Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Gwing, thanks. I am glad you like the documentation.

Your suggestion for the pointer is interesting. But I don't think we really need this level of frequency resolution for tuning a piano. On my iPhone X, I have 74 screen pixels for the last one cent. If every pixel counted, this would be a resolution of 0.014 cents. No piano tone is that stable that you could center it with such high precision. So I think the current way of simply-bringing-the-pointer-to-the middle-line is quite sufficient.

I'm sure you are absolutely correct about the degree of achievable precision but there are patterns and shapes that make centering things more automatic and natural. My experience of that is from archery where having a round sight that surround the target naturally self centres and is demonstrably more effective than having something like a cross which you aim to put in the centre of the target. With the band and lighter toned middle I was trying to think of something along the same principles that would be easy to program ( I know more about both archery and programming than tuning :-) )
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
I've been doing a lot of pitch raises

How did it work? Did pianoscope still overpull too much?

Originally Posted by RonTuner
I've been doing a lot of pitch raises - for me, it would be good to have the scale numbers reduced in intensity to help focus on the arrows.

You can checkout your proposed dimming in build 385. Let me know if it works for you.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by pyropaul
just a thought on the tuning curve display. Maybe you could add the name of the style selected to the header of that page rather than just "tuning curve" - then you can see at a glance what style you're actually using without having to go to the style selector sub-page?

Thanks, Paul. This is a good idea. I've implemented it in build 385.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by RonTuner
I've been doing a lot of pitch raises

How did it work? Did pianoscope still overpull too much?

Originally Posted by RonTuner
I've been doing a lot of pitch raises - for me, it would be good to have the scale numbers reduced in intensity to help focus on the arrows.

You can checkout your proposed dimming in build 385. Let me know if it works for you.

The pitch raises I have done recently were all pretty small - in the 10 -15 cent range. I ended up "close enough" today, so that one correction you made in the last week must've helped!

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by accordeur
I am really enjoying the speed that the app takes measurements and the fact that inharmonicity and pitch raise are taken at the same time.
A very nice app!

Thank you, Jean. It's good to know that pianoscope can stand up to your professional requirements.

Originally Posted by accordeur
I am sure I will have other things to add, but for the moment the spelling on the Pitch Raising window is written "Pitch Rasising". Just a typo I am sure.

Thanks, I fixed the typo in build 385. Have you ever tried running the app in French? It would be interesting for me to know if I got the basic tuning terminology right.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/14/21 10:11 PM
The dimming looks great for pitch raises!

Ron Koval
Posted By: Ed Sutton Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/15/21 02:42 AM
Frank-
Today I used Pianoscope to tune a harpsichord with compass from C2-F6.
Pianoscope demands inharmonicity readings for A0, E1 and A1.
I worked around by playing those notes on a piano, but it would be better to have a way to tell Pianoscope to work with the given range of smaller keyboards.
Actually the instrument is a lautenwerke, a nylon-strung harpsichord. It is not easy to tune because the inharmonicity is irregular. Pianoscope did a pretty good job, though I did need to correct a few octaves aurally.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/15/21 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by accordeur
I am really enjoying the speed that the app takes measurements and the fact that inharmonicity and pitch raise are taken at the same time.
A very nice app!

Thank you, Jean. It's good to know that pianoscope can stand up to your professional requirements.

Originally Posted by accordeur
I am sure I will have other things to add, but for the moment the spelling on the Pitch Raising window is written "Pitch Rasising". Just a typo I am sure.

Thanks, I fixed the typo in build 385. Have you ever tried running the app in French? It would be interesting for me to know if I got the basic tuning terminology right.

Hi Frank,

I just went thru the app in french and the only thing I saw is on the instrument page. "Concert pitch" is translated as "Pitch de concert". I would instead use "Diapason de concert".

Great work with the updates.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/16/21 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
Today I used Pianoscope to tune a harpsichord with compass from C2-F6. Pianoscope demands inharmonicity readings for A0, E1 and A1.
I worked around by playing those notes on a piano, but it would be better to have a way to tell Pianoscope to work with the given range of smaller keyboards.

I am currently working on a setting with which you can limit the range so that tuning harpsichords should get easier.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/16/21 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by accordeur
I just went thru the app in french and the only thing I saw is on the instrument page. "Concert pitch" is translated as "Pitch de concert". I would instead use "Diapason de concert".

Thanks, I will change it to your suggestion.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
Today I used Pianoscope to tune a harpsichord with compass from C2-F6. Pianoscope demands inharmonicity readings for A0, E1 and A1.
I worked around by playing those notes on a piano, but it would be better to have a way to tell Pianoscope to work with the given range of smaller keyboards.
Actually the instrument is a lautenwerke, a nylon-strung harpsichord. It is not easy to tune because the inharmonicity is irregular. Pianoscope did a pretty good job, though I did need to correct a few octaves aurally.

Ed, I've just released build 402 of pianoscope to Test Flight. I've added a new setting with which you can specify a custom range for an instrument. This should enable you to tune your harpsichord without any workarounds. The specified range gets nicely respected in all measurements, calculations and views.

For now, I only allow to REDUCE the range from the regular A0-C8. In principle, the calculations should be able to deal with extended ranges, like a Bösendorfer Grand Imperial or some Stuart & Sons. As I currently do not have access to such instruments, I cannot test it and so I am a bit reluctant. Does anybody encounter these beasts in the wild? Or does anybody have access to audio samples from them?
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 04:00 PM
The other day I started tuning a piano with Pianoscope. It was an old upright, about 25 cents flat, and I couldn't seem to get decent readings on the inharmonicity, so opted to tune with Verituner.
This morning, my first appointment was a Kawai upright. I had difficulty again with inharmonicity readings so tuned the piano with Verituner. After tuning I decided to measure with Pianoscope as a way of getting used to the program. After measuring Ao, I played E1. Pianoscope read it as D#, A2 it measured as G#, and so on up the scale.
My Verituner is calibrated to A440 (which I double checked to be certain). Any idea why I'm not getting correct readings? IPad is running on 14.4.1
Thank you.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 04:15 PM
Gerry, thank you for the feedback. This issue seems very strange. I have not experienced this ever with the software. Perhaps we can analyze where it is coming from.
You reported these two problems:

a) Wrong note detection with a constant offset
b) Strange inharmonicity readings

First lets deal with problem a):
There are two factors which affect the note detection in pianoscope:

1. The concert pitch you chose when you setup the instrument.
I suppose you did not offset this accidentially by >50 cents. But you could check this under the ... menu > Instrument > Concert Pitch

2. The basic analog / digital accuracy of the device's audio hardware.
This is generally very good and the worst I ever experienced was an offset of 0.7 cents. You could run pianoscope's calibration against an external reference tone to check this. You get the calibration via ... menu > Settings > Calibrate

As Verituner seems to work on the device, I find it unlikely that the device has some kind of hardware defect. But to rule things out: Do you have a different iOS device on which you could try to run pianoscope as a comparison?

Problem b) is even stranger:
Even if your device had a kind of absolute frequency calibration issue, this should not affect IH measurement as this is derived from the relation of partials not their absolute values. I have no idea where this is coming from.

It might sound like a placebo, but have you tried rebooting your iPad? Here you can see how it works in different iPad models: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210631
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 04:23 PM
Thanks for the response Frank.
Pianoscope was set to A-440. Pianoscope did give me IH measurements, but they were all a semi-tone low. Tried rebooting, even tried reinstalling software.
I'll double check settings and try another piano this afternoon. If problem persists I'll try a different IOS device.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston
Thanks for the response Frank.
Pianoscope was set to A-440. Pianoscope did give me IH measurements, but they were all a semi-tone low.

Ah, ok. So problems a) + b) seems to be just a single problem with the absolute frequency precision. When you first started using Veritune on this iPad: Did you have to calibrate it against an external source?
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 04:40 PM
Didn't need to calibrate, although I checked just to be certain.
Posted By: Robert Scott Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Gerry, thank you for the feedback. This issue seems very strange. I have not experienced this ever with the software. Perhaps we can analyze where it is coming from.
You reported these two problems:

a) Wrong note detection with a constant offset
b) Strange inharmonicity readings

Just a thought, Frank. Could it be a reaction to an incomplete set of inharmonicity readings affecting the tuning curve so that notes are detected a semitone low? Does your software update the tuning curve (and therefore the tuning targets affecting auto note switching) after each IH measurement? Even if it does, I assume that A4 is always anchored, so I wonder if Gerry's "and so on up the scale" refers to behavior all the way to A4?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Robert Scott
[quote=Frank Illenberger]
Just a thought, Frank. Could it be a reaction to an incomplete set of inharmonicity readings affecting the tuning curve so that notes are detected a semitone low? Does your software update the tuning curve (and therefore the tuning targets affecting auto note switching) after each IH measurement? Even if it does, I assume that A4 is always anchored, so I wonder if Gerry's "and so on up the scale" refers to behavior all the way to A4?

As Gerry's problem with wrong note detection already occured as he was measuring the IH, the tuning curve calculation couldn't have been the culprit as it only happens AFTER the IH has been measured. So either the piano was more than 50 cents detuned (what he and Veritune most certainly would have noticed) or there must be some other factor which we do not understand yet.
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 09:33 PM
I tried Pianoscope on my iPhone this afternoon and it worked perfectly. It's probably safe to assume that the problem is in my iPad. Although it just seems odd that Verituner seems to be working O.K.
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 09:41 PM
Thank you Frank, for this full-featured beta test. The app is well-designed and documented, and I find it intuitive to use.

However, I can't get Pianoscope to calibrate my iPad to a known 440 Hz reference, it shows up as too flat. The adjustment maxes out at only 2 cents, should it be 100 times that for 2 semitones? Pianoscope detects that 440 Hz reference as 403 Hz, or -152 cents.

Tried powering off the device, restarting Pianoscope, taking off the case. Nothing helped. It's an iPad Air 3rd generation.

For comparison, I tried Anthony's app PianoMeter on the same device. Without calibration, it detects that 440 Hz reference as A4 (A440), -2.3 cents flat.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 09:55 PM
Gerry & pianofish: I don't think your devices are at fault. There must be a bug somewhere in my code that only occurs with some devices. Perhaps the audio system delivers different sample rates than I expect. I need to look into that.

Gerry: What model is your iPad?
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 09:59 PM
Question:

Why are the IH measurements so quick? Almost instantaneous, in fact. IH measuring seems to be a much more lengthy process in other tuning programs, particularly below c4, as you probably know.
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 10:08 PM
Hi Frank -
iPad mini - 5th generation. Running version 14.4.1
Posted By: AWilley Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/17/21 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Perhaps the audio system delivers different sample rates than I expect.
I suspect this may be the issue. I think there are some iPads that only support a 48 kHz sample rate. Not sure if you're trying to sample at 44.1kHz, but the ratio between 48 kHz and 44.1 kHz is close to the ratio between 440 Hz and the 403 Hz number pianofish reported.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by AWilley
I suspect this may be the issue. I think there are some iPads that only support a 48 kHz sample rate. Not sure if you're trying to sample at 44.1kHz, but the ratio between 48 kHz and 44.1 kHz is close to the ratio between 440 Hz and the 403 Hz number pianofish reported.

As it turned out, in the setup of the audio stack, I used the sample rate of the audio OUTPUT stream to configure my parameters instead of the INPUT stream. On most iOS devices, they seem to be identical so that this error did not have any consequences. On Gerry's and pianofish's iPads however, the output stream seems to default to 44100 Hz and the input stream to 48000 Hz.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 12:29 AM
Gerry & pianofish: Please check out the new build 414 I have just uploaded to Test Flight. I think the bug you encountered is fixed in this release. But please test it with your iPads as I do not have any device with which pianoscope showed this problem.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 12:29 AM
Today I was a bit playful and I tried to implement an experimental feature of which I don't know if I should put it into the final release. I don't know if it is of much use to experienced tuners but for students it might be very helpful. I am curious what you think. The feature is currently not documented in the manual.

Replaying recordings of selected partials:

If you enable the partial spectrum via the settings, you can now tap on the word "Partials" above the keyboard in the tuning view. This opens a menu which allows to switch between two modes of operation. The default mode is the "Continuous" mode, which simply shows the partial intensities live as before. The new mode is currently dubbed "Maxima per Note". This freezes the partial intensities at their relative maxima until you play the next note. When you now tap on one of the frozen partial bars, pianoscope will replay a recording of the last note, but band-pass filtered for the partial you tapped on. This feature may help novice tuners in learning to hear partials and to isolate beats. It works best with headphones as the speakers of iPhones and iPads are not the best.
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 12:41 AM
That was fast Frank! Build 414 fixes the issue on my iPad. Now the A440 is measured with better than 1 cent accuracy before calibration.
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 01:16 AM
Thank you Frank. I do not have any tunings scheduled tomorrow, but will try it out Friday.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by pianofish
That was fast Frank! Build 414 fixes the issue on my iPad. Now the A440 is measured with better than 1 cent accuracy before calibration.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Question:

Why are the IH measurements so quick? Almost instantaneous, in fact. IH measuring seems to be a much more lengthy process in other tuning programs, particularly below c4, as you probably know.

Let me correct/refine this statement. Some tuning programs are FAST at arriving at an IH, others are slow. Is it the case, perhaps, that experience has shown that there is effectively no real advantage to doing multiple IH measurements? Or, perhaps, doing multiple IH measurements and averaging them? Perhaps one IH measurement is all that is really needed (unless, of course, it appears to be way out of range, in which case another is required).
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Question: Why are the IH measurements so quick? Almost instantaneous, in fact. IH measuring seems to be a much more lengthy process in other tuning programs, particularly below c4, as you probably know.

When designing a system for measuring frequencies you need to make many tradeoffs. If you use FFT, you need to choose a sample rate, a buffer size, a windowing function, an interpolation scheme and so on. And they all influence latency and accuracy. As the frequency range of the piano is quite large, there is no single perfect set of parameters. pianoscope is adaptive and very good at reducing latency, as it does not only rely on a streaming buffer which is analyzed ~5 times a second but instead is event based and can react very fast to audible changes.

But the question also is: How much information do you need about a note in general? The inharmonicity of a piano tone changes with its envelope duration. Which inharmonicity do you want to use for tuning? Which one do you use when you tune aurally? Do you use the early, middle or late phase? If you use the early phase, you give more weight to the lower partials in determining the inharmonicity as they are fading out faster than the higher ones. From my experience, if you consistently take just the first 1.5 seconds, you are getting good tuning results. But I think you have to be consistent. Pianometer for example, when the tuning is not yet locked, listens and measures all the time. So it highly depends on you how long you play every note.
Posted By: johnlewisgrant Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Question: Why are the IH measurements so quick? Almost instantaneous, in fact. IH measuring seems to be a much more lengthy process in other tuning programs, particularly below c4, as you probably know.

When designing a system for measuring frequencies you need to make many tradeoffs. If you use FFT, you need to choose a sample rate, a buffer size, a windowing function, an interpolation scheme and so on. And they all influence latency and accuracy. As the frequency range of the piano is quite large, there is no single perfect set of parameters. pianoscope is adaptive and very good at reducing latency, as it does not only rely on a streaming buffer which is analyzed ~5 times a second but instead is event based and can react very fast to audible changes.

But the question also is: How much information do you need about a note in general? The inharmonicity of a piano tone changes with its envelope duration. Which inharmonicity do you want to use for tuning? Which one do you use when you tune aurally? Do you use the early, middle or late phase? If you use the early phase, you give more weight to the lower partials in determining the inharmonicity as they are fading out faster than the higher ones. From my experience, if you consistently take just the first 1.5 seconds, you are getting good tuning results. But I think you have to be consistent. Pianometer for example, when the tuning is not yet locked, listens and measures all the time. So it highly depends on you how long you play every note.

Interesting!
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 04:14 PM
I have just released build 420, which contains some minor fixes.

And I have updated the web page for the pro edition to better explain the unique selling points of pianoscope. Checkout https://www.pianoscope.app/en/features/pro
Posted By: Floyd G Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 05:24 PM
A few comments.

When it comes to naming the file, the information most useful to me is the brand, model and serial number. This makes the subcategories, which do not appear when selecting files from the folder, redundant for my purposes. How are others of you using this part of the interface?

If I keep my wits about me, I will remember to take a screen shot of the initial pitch raise screen, showing the deviation of the samples from the target, and save it in my customer management program. Is there a way to call this screen back after I start tuning, if I forget to do it at the beginning? A customer last night asked "how far off was it?", and I didn't know how to show him the graphic.

I am thinking that pitch raising information is stored in the instrument data file and stays there until new pitch raise samples are taken and saved. Am I correct?

When I take my inharmonicity samples followed by a pitch raise, I am offered the possiblity of sampling only a few other notes, but it is not clear to me how to take advantage of that offer. If I hit "begin measuring" I seem to be required to resample everything, and if I do not, I do not seem to be offered any alternative way of moving forward. What am I missing?

I have now done a handful of tunings with this progam, and am finding it enjoyable to use.
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 08:32 PM
Hi Frank -
I didn't have any tunings scheduled today but decided to tune my own piano as an excuse to try out the updated Pianoscope.
It worked perfeclty! Thank you!
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 11:09 PM
Floyd, thank you for your great feedback! Here are my thoughts:

Originally Posted by Floyd G
When it comes to naming the file, the information most useful to me is the brand, model and serial number. This makes the subcategories, which do not appear when selecting files from the folder, redundant for my purposes. How are others of you using this part of the interface?

When I first designed pianoscope I thought of taking the same approach as other apps which use their own database of customers and pianos. But I never really liked the usability of their user interfaces. On the other hand, the document/file abstraction is very powerful and there are many apps and tools out there to seamlessly sync them with other devices and users. And people already know how to organize them so they can start right away.
Sadly, the document system of iOS is currently somewhat limited when dealing with document metadata. I am currently playing with feeding the model / manufacturer / serial data into the spotlight system of iOS. This would enable you to search for this data in the regular iOS search which you get when swiping right on the home screen.
But until then, I can understand your skepticism about the usefulness of these fields.

Originally Posted by Floyd G
If I keep my wits about me, I will remember to take a screen shot of the initial pitch raise screen, showing the deviation of the samples from the target, and save it in my customer management program. Is there a way to call this screen back after I start tuning, if I forget to do it at the beginning? A customer last night asked "how far off was it?", and I didn't know how to show him the graphic.
I am thinking that pitch raising information is stored in the instrument data file and stays there until new pitch raise samples are taken and saved. Am I correct?

Oh well, you got me here. I think you are completely right. Having to take screenshots from an app which should store your data is very unsatisfactory. This is why I have rolled up my sleeves today and restructured the pitch-raise workflow. In build 423, a new sub-menu will be shown, when you select the "Pitch Raise" item in the more menu after you have measured and started a pitch-raise. It now contains options for stopping, resuming and restarting the pitch-raise. You can also open the pitch raise settings and access the chart of the previous measurement. The change is not yet documented in the manual.
Please check it out and let me know if it works for you.

Originally Posted by Floyd G
When I take my inharmonicity samples followed by a pitch raise, I am offered the possiblity of sampling only a few other notes, but it is not clear to me how to take advantage of that offer. If I hit "begin measuring" I seem to be required to resample everything, and if I do not, I do not seem to be offered any alternative way of moving forward. What am I missing?

Normally, you should just select "Use existing measurement" and depending on how many notes you measured for IH, you should be prompted to play the few remaining notes. I have just tested it again, and on my devices, it seems to work as it should. Can you re-try it? And if it still fails for you, make some screenshots of it for me?


Originally Posted by Floyd G
I have now done a handful of tunings with this progam, and am finding it enjoyable to use.

I am really glad you like it. I am hard at work to really get the app finished.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/18/21 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston
Hi Frank -
I didn't have any tunings scheduled today but decided to tune my own piano as an excuse to try out the updated Pianoscope.
It worked perfeclty! Thank you!

Great! So it seems that my change has really fixed the bug. Thanks for testing!
Posted By: Floyd G Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/19/21 04:23 AM
Thanks for your quick response, Frank. I can now recall the graphic I need. In terms of the ability to add only the new measurements needed, I have sent you a screen shot. From what you have said, I understand the problem to be related to how the page is rendered on my first generation iPhone SE.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/19/21 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by Floyd G
Thanks for your quick response, Frank. I can now recall the graphic I need. In terms of the ability to add only the new measurements needed, I have sent you a screen shot. From what you have said, I understand the problem to be related to how the page is rendered on my first generation iPhone SE.

Thanks for the screenshot. It is a layout problem on small screens. I have already fixed it. The fix will be in the next release. In the meantime you can work around it by rotating your phone to landscape orientation. By the way: pianoscope is optimized to be used in landscape orientation on iPhones. (Of course there should be no layout bugs in portrait mode)
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/19/21 08:34 PM
I like everything. This application can be completely trusted, the setting is ideal. There are minuses. When tuning sometimes hangs. I would like to in the application there was an opportunity to make a stroboscope opaque.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/19/21 08:54 PM
When writing a name (New Piano), the cursor does not move while the space is pressed.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/19/21 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by D520
I like everything. This application can be completely trusted, the setting is ideal.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by D520
There are minuses. When tuning sometimes hangs.


Yes, this is a known bug. I am working on reproducing and fixing it. Currently it helps if you simply play a different note.

Originally Posted by D520
I would like to in the application there was an opportunity to make a stroboscope opaque.

Why do you want it to be opaque? To get more contrast or because you don't want the scale to shine through?

Originally Posted by D520
When writing a name (New Piano), the cursor does not move while the space is pressed.

Thanks. The fix for that will be in the next build.
Posted By: Floyd G Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 03:56 AM
I just got back from tuning a piano that was 80 cents flat. I wasn't expecting that, and was stumped. Playing samples for inharmonicity and seeing them interpreted as the semitone below was initally off-putting. I ended up doing a first pass with no overpull in Tunelab using an existing tuning file of a similar piano, then switched across to PianoScope and took measurements for inharmonicity and pitch raising.

Next time I encounter a piano this far off pitch, I will simply pull up any existing data file in PianoScope and do a no-overpull pass (i.e. no breaking strings, I hope) before taking measurements for a new tuning file.

With this piano, I could probably have started right off with overpull, but I've had some rude surprises in the past. I am preferring to play it safe. And yes, I am aware that I can lower the overpull limits.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 05:23 AM
When the stroboscope is opaque, then it dominates the program desktop. Communication of the program with a person is obtained very high, the application and man becomes like one. When the stroboscope is visible weakly, it goes into the background, tensions and inattention and even fatigue at work appear. For the experiment, I set up the piano at once in two programs, Tunelab and Pianoscope. When working it turned out that it was comfortable to work with Tunelab, just because he has a contrast strobe. If the dark cubes of the strobe will overlap the red arrow, then when they are crossing them, you can make the arrow changed the shade with dark to light.
Posted By: Vlad Ants Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 06:09 AM
Dear Frank! You've created a very decent piano tuning app. Allow me to notice something too. I think the user should be able to quickly switch notes and octaves without using the on-screen keyboard. Swipe left and right to switch notes by semitone. And with a single tap on these areas of the display, we switch the octaves up and down.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by Vlad Ants
Dear Frank! You've created a very decent piano tuning app. Allow me to notice something too. I think the user should be able to quickly switch notes and octaves without using the on-screen keyboard. Swipe left and right to switch notes by semitone. And with a single tap on these areas of the display, we switch the octaves up and down.

Vlad, this is an interesing request. I am going to look into this.

The other day, I was experimenting with using voice recognition to switch notes. The idea is, that you could simply say "up" or "down" to switch to a neighbouring note, or to say something like "C 3" or "A sharp 5" to jump to other notes.

What do you all think of this? Would this be a welcome way to switch notes hands-free?
Posted By: Vlad Ants Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 10:06 AM
I don’t know how convenient it would be, but, in any case, this will be the first time it will be used in a customization application. And the ability to switch, which I described earlier in the post, I would be very welcome.
Posted By: Gerry Johnston Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 11:44 AM
Hi Frank -
Not sure I'd want to use voice recognition. Customer might think I was talking to them - or else had gone nuts talking to my ipad!
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 01:09 PM
Another note switching observation - I've found it really difficult to hit C8 with my finger...

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Another note switching observation - I've found it really difficult to hit C8 with my finger...

Do you know that you can change the Keyboard size by pinching with two fingers inside the Keyboard?
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Another note switching observation - I've found it really difficult to hit C8 with my finger...

Do you know that you can change the Keyboard size by pinching with two fingers inside the Keyboard?


Thanks, I remembered that was an option, but was pinching too high on the screen!

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Vlad Ants
I think the user should be able to quickly switch notes and octaves without using the on-screen keyboard. Swipe left and right to switch notes by semitone. And with a single tap on these areas of the display, we switch the octaves up and down.


Vlad, in build 433 I implemented your request: By swiping left or right in the scale area, you can switch to an adjacent key one semitone higher or lower. I will look into octaves switching later.
Posted By: Vlad Ants Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 07:48 PM
Thank you Frank!
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 08:53 PM
During the set-up for a pitch raise, would it be possible to use "next" or "continue" to enter the top of the bass bridge, last wound string and strut location(s) rather than "done"? It makes us bounce back and forth between screens, when all the info is going to be entered.

A nice bonus would be to be asked to play each of the above notes, and have the software find and display for us!

For those of you playing along, I used the "octaves pure" setting on a Baldwin spinet and it probably sounded the best it ever has...

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
During the set-up for a pitch raise, would it be possible to use "next" or "continue" to enter the top of the bass bridge, last wound string and strut location(s) rather than "done"? It makes us bounce back and forth between screens, when all the info is going to be entered.

OK, I understand. There is potential to save more time when preparing a pitch raise. I will think about it.

Originally Posted by RonTuner
A nice bonus would be to be asked to play each of the above notes, and have the software find and display for us!

This can only work if the piano is less than 50 cents flat, otherwise the app cannot know which note you are playing. Would it still make sense for you to have it only for these cases?

Originally Posted by RonTuner
For those of you playing along, I used the "octaves pure" setting on a Baldwin spinet and it probably sounded the best it ever has...

Thanks, I am very happy about that!
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/20/21 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by RonTuner
During the set-up for a pitch raise, would it be possible to use "next" or "continue" to enter the top of the bass bridge, last wound string and strut location(s) rather than "done"? It makes us bounce back and forth between screens, when all the info is going to be entered.

OK, I understand. There is potential to save more time when preparing a pitch raise. I will think about it.

Originally Posted by RonTuner
A nice bonus would be to be asked to play each of the above notes, and have the software find and display for us!

This can only work if the piano is less than 50 cents flat, otherwise the app cannot know which note you are playing. Would it still make sense for you to have it only for these cases?

Since most of my pitch raises are smaller - in the 10-20 cent range, I would use the "play these notes" option way more than the large pitch raises.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/21/21 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Since most of my pitch raises are smaller - in the 10-20 cent range, I would use the "play these notes" option way more than the large pitch raises.

OK. I like both ideas, so I implemented them in build 438:
You can now switch from one settings page to the next using the new "Next" button in the top right corner or alternatively, you can press the new record button and play the note on the piano. The state of the record button will be persisted, so that next time you enter the settings, recording will be immediately activated to save additional time.

Also I changed the scale gestures for fast note switching. They are now as follows:
- Tap on the right side of the tuning scale: semitone up
- Tap on the left side of the tuning scale: semitone down
- Swipe on the right side of the tuning scale: octave up
- Swipe on the left side of the tuning scale: octave down
Posted By: Vlad Ants Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/21/21 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
I changed the scale gestures for fast note switching. They are now as follows:
- Tap on the right side of the tuning scale: semitone up
- Tap on the left side of the tuning scale: semitone down
- Swipe on the right side of the tuning scale: octave up
- Swipe on the left side of the tuning scale: octave down
SUPER! Wery conveniently.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/21/21 12:41 PM
Today I had some time to sit down at the piano and work on the reported bugs in the attack / note detection.

The freezing of the tuning indicator and strobe that some of you reported, should now be fixed with build 443. It only occurred if you were tuning the same note for more than 60 seconds. For the geeks: It was a bug in the marking of key attacks in the circular audio buffer.

And while I was at it, I also found a bug which made the automatic note detection much more nervous than it should be. When playing a new note, the app sometimes wrongly also analyzed a small part of the previously sounding note which could lead to the keyboard and note indicator jumping to an unrelated note for a short time. Now the automatic note detection is much calmer, the way it was meant to be.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/21/21 01:25 PM
Hello Frank, you are very efficient and quick!

I had some time yesterday and tuned a 4 year old Yamaha U1 that I regularly maintain. I already had a Verituner file for it. Since I have 2 iphones I decided to use pianoscope on one and verituner on the other. I used the balanced tuning. Pianoscope calculated the tenor and treble almost exactly the same, but the bass was sharper on certain notes by about 3 cents. Obviously I played around with intervals to see which tuning I preferred. And to my ears I preferred pianoscope. I am very impressed.

I am still not sure which display I prefer. I ended up using the strobe only. Having both the strobe and the indicator at the same time is too "busy" for my eyes. I would like to have a marker show the initial pitch, either below or above the tuning scale and maybe another type of indicator that could light up when within a cent of the desired pitch.

Thanks very much for an excellent app. I really like the speed that it takes measurements and be able to choose which notes to measure by just playing them. I am looking forward to trying it again on a large pitch raise.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/21/21 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by accordeur
Hello Frank, you are very efficient and quick!

Thank you. I try my best...

Originally Posted by accordeur
I had some time yesterday and tuned a 4 year old Yamaha U1 that I regularly maintain. I already had a Verituner file for it. Since I have 2 iphones I decided to use pianoscope on one and verituner on the other. I used the balanced tuning. Pianoscope calculated the tenor and treble almost exactly the same, but the bass was sharper on certain notes by about 3 cents. Obviously I played around with intervals to see which tuning I preferred. And to my ears I preferred pianoscope. I am very impressed.

This is very interesting. I have just received an e-mail from a gentleman who tuned an old Bechstein model 9 upright with pianoscope. He also compared the tuning to the one from Verituner and found it to be sharper in the bass but unlike you he did not like the result. I hope I can get more details to analyze it further.

Originally Posted by accordeur
I am still not sure which display I prefer. I ended up using the strobe only. Having both the strobe and the indicator at the same time is too "busy" for my eyes. I would like to have a marker show the initial pitch, either below or above the tuning scale and maybe another type of indicator that could light up when within a cent of the desired pitch.

This sounds interesting. I have not put much effort yet into the strobe-only interface. What exactly do you mean with "a marker showing the initial pitch"? If there is no scale, would it be a textual indication? And how to you imagine the lighting-up-indicator? Also as a text?

Originally Posted by accordeur
Thanks very much for an excellent app. I really like the speed that it takes measurements and be able to choose which notes to measure by just playing them. I am looking forward to trying it again on a large pitch raise.

I am happy to return the thanks. The great feedback here helps me a lot to improve the app.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 01:24 AM
I tried tuning today but the display response was sooooo sloooow as I started at A0 on a pitch raise. . After I got home today, there was an update (447) Hopefully, that will fix it!

I did restart the program, (swipe it away) but that didn't seem to change anything.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
I tried tuning today but the display response was sooooo sloooow as I started at A0 on a pitch raise. . After I got home today, there was an update (447) Hopefully, that will fix it!
I did restart the program, (swipe it away) but that didn't seem to change anything.

Ron, I am sorry to hear this. But I worked on many things in the last days. Perhaps I broke something. What exactly was slow? Measuring inharmonicity? Measuring overpull? Note detection during tuning? Indicator / strobe responsiveness?

I have just tried the latest build here on my piano, and it seems to work fine.

With the TestFlight app you can always go back to older versions if you want to.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 04:13 AM
It was the indicator / strobe response. I'll check it tomorrow with the latest build and see if there is any difference.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
It was the indicator / strobe response. I'll check it tomorrow with the latest build and see if there is any difference.

With build 443 I had indeed damaged something. This should now be fixed again with build 453. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 01:32 PM
Thanks - I had also updated the latest ios security patch that morning - not sure if that had any effect on the tuning.

Ron Koval
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 07:20 PM
"This sounds interesting. I have not put much effort yet into the strobe-only interface. What exactly do you mean with "a marker showing the initial pitch"? If there is no scale, would it be a textual indication? And how to you imagine the lighting-up-indicator? Also as a text?"

Hello again,

Yes it could be textual, as in "starting pitch -12". For an indicator when in the 1 cent range, if you look at tunelab, just below the strobe there is a small grey bar that expands when within a cent.

Thanks
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by accordeur
"This sounds interesting. I have not put much effort yet into the strobe-only interface. What exactly do you mean with "a marker showing the initial pitch"? If there is no scale, would it be a textual indication? And how to you imagine the lighting-up-indicator? Also as a text?"
Yes it could be textual, as in "starting pitch -12". For an indicator when in the 1 cent range, if you look at tunelab, just below the strobe there is a small grey bar that expands when within a cent.
Thanks

This would be possible, but I am looking for a more intuitive solution, something which can be easily understood without having to read textual labels all the time. The best idea I could come up with so far is the following:

I could add two new display options:
a) Scale On/Off: A switch which hides all scale ticks and numbers, and only leaves the zero tick in the middle.
b) Indicator/Strobe Threshold: A value in cents at which the display switches from the red indicator line to the strobe. If the current pitch deviation is HIGHER than the threshold, the red indicator is shown (on an empty scale if you have turned it off with switch a). BELOW the threshold, the indicator is hidden and the strobe takes over.

This would result in a very clean interface in which the indicator could give you a coarse orientation. And once you are near the tuning target, the strobe would do the fine work. But you would not have both at the same time.You could decide individually where this threshold should be, perhaps at one cent, or at three.
You could combine this with the pitch text feature which is already there: The text showing the current deviation would be attached to the indicator line and move with it, and it would fade out together with it once the strobe takes over.

I don't like the appoach of many different static numbers in the interface, because it is not intuitive to grasp which is the target value and which is the current value. One would need to put names besides the values and things would get cluttered pretty quick. I would like to keep the approach that the current value is attached to the indicator line, so its movement makes it intuitively clear that it is a current, changing value and not a fixed target.

These are just my current thoughts. As with every idea, I think we will need a working prototype to judge if it will work out. But it should not be too complicated. Perhaps I will find some time next week to try it.

If you have any further ideas you want to share, please let me know.
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/22/21 08:31 PM
Thanks, I am looking forward to trying out those ideas!
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/23/21 12:54 AM
One thing I liked in Tunelab was the spectrum display would really help when tuning reluctant unisons in the high treble as you'd see a peak for each string (if you were tuning more than one at once). The partial display currently is quantized to a semitone so you never get enough resolution to see. OK the strobe helps, but if you also have strings with false beats, it's sometimes hard to tell if one (or more) is sharp or flat of the target. With the Tunelab display you could usually identify which string you're moving and try and merge the peaks.

Paul.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/23/21 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by pyropaul
One thing I liked in Tunelab was the spectrum display would really help when tuning reluctant unisons in the high treble as you'd see a peak for each string.

Paul, I like that feature about TuneLab, too. I have something similar on my list for a later version of pianoscope. Although I would not put it in the partial spectrum view which is meant to deliver a coarse musical overview of ALL partials. It could be one of two things:

1) A special mode inside the tuning scale, replacing the red indicator with an excerpt from the spectrum like TuneLab does, focusing the area around a single partial onto the zero in the middle. This approach would have the downside, that one would lose the automatic averaging of multiple partials and one would have to pick the right partial. (Which would not be a problem for the high treble)

2) Or if I managed to reliably identify nearby peaks, I could simply draw multiple averaged indicator lines into the scale. And in a perfect world, the line of the string which has been moved recently would be highlighted.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/23/21 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by pyropaul
One thing I liked in Tunelab was the spectrum display would really help when tuning reluctant unisons in the high treble as you'd see a peak for each string.

Paul, I like that feature about TuneLab, too. [ ... ]
2) Or if I managed to reliably identify nearby peaks, I could simply draw multiple averaged indicator lines into the scale. And in a perfect world, the line of the string which has been moved recently would be highlighted.

Could also be a feature for the pitch raise mode as it would allow an easier way to do muteless pitch raises.

Paul.
Posted By: gwing Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/24/21 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by pyropaul
One thing I liked in Tunelab was the spectrum display would really help when tuning reluctant unisons in the high treble as you'd see a peak for each string.

Paul, I like that feature about TuneLab, too. I have something similar on my list for a later version of pianoscope. Although I would not put it in the partial spectrum view which is meant to deliver a coarse musical overview of ALL partials. It could be one of two things:

1) A special mode inside the tuning scale, replacing the red indicator with an excerpt from the spectrum like TuneLab does, focusing the area around a single partial onto the zero in the middle. This approach would have the downside, that one would lose the automatic averaging of multiple partials and one would have to pick the right partial. (Which would not be a problem for the high treble)

2) Or if I managed to reliably identify nearby peaks, I could simply draw multiple averaged indicator lines into the scale. And in a perfect world, the line of the string which has been moved recently would be highlighted.


Just to add some encouragement, providing assistance like this would be really helpful for owners not wanting to do a full tuning but rather to touch up unisons between tunings. Automatically matching the peaks to the strings would be great, but if that proves unreliable you might ask us to pluck or mute the strings on a note so that you can definitively establish the peak/string relationships . That might be too time consuming for a full tuning but fine for some touching up.
Posted By: millermiles Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/24/21 02:57 PM
Not affordable UI and UX design in this app. Think about creating my own.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/24/21 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by millermiles
Not affordable UI and UX design in this app. Think about creating my own.

In what way is it not affordable? You think you could do better for the price Frank is charging? You must not value your time very much ...
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/24/21 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by gwing
Just to add some encouragement, providing assistance like this would be really helpful for owners not wanting to do a full tuning but rather to touch up unisons between tunings. Automatically matching the peaks to the strings would be great, but if that proves unreliable you might ask us to pluck or mute the strings on a note so that you can definitively establish the peak/string relationships . That might be too time consuming for a full tuning but fine for some touching up.

Sadly. I can't promise anything here. I would have to do some research first. I think it is easy to do for pitch raises, because the peaks are moving quite strongly when you start tuning the first string and so it is easy to identify them. When they are already close together and close to the target, it is harder, because there is less movement involved.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/24/21 09:05 PM
I have a question to those of you who have been using pianoscope in the last weeks. A senior piano tuner has contacted me and told me that he has tried pianoscope but he was not satisfied. He said, he ended up with a tuning in which the major thirds over the bass/tenor break did not have a progressive beat rate. He described them as sounding "lumpy". When I however look at the calculated beat rate curves for thirds for his instrument in pianoscope, they look as smooth as butter. So something must have gone wrong when he was applying the tuning to the instrument. Either pianoscope has somehow guided him to slightly wrong pitches, or he must have done something wrong, or both.
So to narrow things down, I am interested in your experience: How did the thirds progress in your tunings? Were you satisfied with them?
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/24/21 10:13 PM
I will be tuning a very small Samick baby grand tomorrow. I will pay special attention to the thirds and will have verituner running at the same. I will let you know my observations.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 04:42 AM
That was one of the reasons why I opted for measuring inharmonicity value of each note rather than sampling. I assume Verituner has a similar approach too.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
That was one of the reasons why I opted for measuring inharmonicity value of each note rather than sampling. I assume Verituner has a similar approach too.

Hakki, thanks. This totally makes sense. I thought the gentleman must have measured all notes, but now that I think about it he might have fallen into this trap. I think I will need to make the IH setup clearer in my app. That for a rough tuning it is sufficient to only sample a few notes, and that you should measure more for fine tuning.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 09:32 AM
Just to be clear:

PiaTune uses an aural like scheme where inharmonicity is measured for every note.

As the tuner proceeds, the complete tuning is recalculated after tuning each note.

PiaTune's approach (like Verituner) might seem slow at first impression.

But I opted to employ this scheme in my app PiaTune, to ensure a fine tuning regardless of the scale design of the piano.
Posted By: gwing Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by gwing
Just to add some encouragement, providing assistance like this would be really helpful for owners not wanting to do a full tuning but rather to touch up unisons between tunings. Automatically matching the peaks to the strings would be great, but if that proves unreliable you might ask us to pluck or mute the strings on a note so that you can definitively establish the peak/string relationships . That might be too time consuming for a full tuning but fine for some touching up.

Sadly. I can't promise anything here. I would have to do some research first. I think it is easy to do for pitch raises, because the peaks are moving quite strongly when you start tuning the first string and so it is easy to identify them. When they are already close together and close to the target, it is harder, because there is less movement involved.

Simplicity can be good. If tracking the strings when open unison tuning proves hard a simple aid for muted tuning could be helpful, something like just leaving a coloured dot on the screen as a reference for the first string's main peak when tuning the second, then two reference dots for tuning the third string?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Just to be clear:
PiaTune uses an aural like scheme where inharmonicity is measured for every note. As the tuner proceeds, the complete tuning is recalculated after tuning each note. PiaTune's approach (like Verituner) might seem slow at first impression. But I opted to employ this scheme in my app PiaTune, to ensure a fine tuning regardless of the scale design of the piano.

Yes, I am aware of that. It is a fundamental design decision for the app. And using an aural-like sequence has its benefits. My approach needs a full IH model upfront, because I want to perform a global optimization for the whole tuning. And for it I also want to take the partial intensity distribution into account. If the IH model is too coarse, because you measured too little notes, the resulting tuning might have problems. But I made pianoscope fast so that measuring the full bass & tenor should not take much longer than a minute.

I will improve the workflow of the IH measurements in pianoscope to make it clearer to the user, how many notes need to be measured to get a good result.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 02:12 PM
Is it possible that reducing the measurement of each partial down to a single inharmonicity constant loses the specific partail information needed to really accurately predict 3rds speeds for a specific instrument?

Hakki, does yours boil the data down on each note to an inharmonicity constant?

Ron Koval
Posted By: Hakki Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Is it possible that reducing the measurement of each partial down to a single inharmonicity constant loses the specific partail information needed to really accurately predict 3rds speeds for a specific instrument?

Hakki, does yours boil the data down on each note to an inharmonicity constant?

Ron Koval

Ron, I have tried both retaining the measured partials and using a single constant while developing PiaTune.

After extensive testing I came to the conclusion that, if modelled correctly, a single constant could reproduce the measured partials accurate enough not to cause any discrepancy in beat rates.

Currently PiaTune is using an inharmonicity constant.

Since PiaTune measures every note as you tune and bases its calculations on measured notes only and does not use any guesswork, the end result is similar to an aural concert tuner’s tuning.

Verituner keeps the partials information rather than using a single constant, as far as I know.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Is it possible that reducing the measurement of each partial down to a single inharmonicity constant loses the specific partail information needed to really accurately predict 3rds speeds for a specific instrument?[quote=RonTuner]Is it possible that reducing the measurement of each partial down to a single inharmonicity constant loses the specific partail information needed to really accurately predict 3rds speeds for a specific instrument?

I don‘t think so. From my experience, the combination of fundamental + IH is pretty good at describing the first ten partials. The bigger source of error is not knowing a strings IH in the first place because you did not measure it. Especially for bass strings which are uniquely fabricated. As you know, even two bass strings in a unison can have a quite different inharmonicity. For strings you did not measure, pianoscope builds an interpolation, which is quite good for well balanced pianos. But if you want to be sure and do a really fine tuning, you need to know the IH of all bass and tenor notes. There are little surprises with IH in the treble, therefore you do not need to measure a lot there. I am working on an update which makes this clearer to the user.
And the IH slightly changes along the duration of a tone. pianoscope focuses on the first ~second of a tone, which is the part which you hear the most in actual music.
Posted By: P W Grey Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 03:51 PM
I have yet to meet an electronic device that can navigate the bass/tenor break ideally without having to make aural (analog) adjustments. But then again, I do not own any apple equipment. And then again, why spend my time looking at an app when I'm just going to have to correct it anyway with my ears and brain?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 04:32 PM
Hakki and Frank, thanks for the clarification. It was something that I've wondered about for some time!

Ron Koval
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 08:31 PM
Well I went to tune this short Samick today. I don't know if something went wrong since the last build, but I measured all notes from A0 to A6 and the bass turned out so sharp it was unplayable. I did not have a lot of time so I just quit pianometer. I am not well versed in the technical terms so I am afraid I can't help you very much. All I know is that I never got to test some thirds as the octaves were just really bad I quit after an octave and a half.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by accordeur
Well I went to tune this short Samick today. I don't know if something went wrong since the last build, but I measured all notes from A0 to A6 and the bass turned out so sharp it was unplayable. I did not have a lot of time so I just quit pianometer. I am not well versed in the technical terms so I am afraid I can't help you very much. All I know is that I never got to test some thirds as the octaves were just really bad I quit after an octave and a half.

I am sorry for this, but I guess this is what a beta test is for. Thanks for testing it. Can you send me the pianoscope document with the measurements?
Posted By: accordeur Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/25/21 10:05 PM
Hi Frank,

At what email? I can't attach a document if I follow links on your website.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/26/21 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by accordeur
Hi Frank, At what email? I can't attach a document if I follow links on your website.

support@pianoscope.app

Thanks!
Posted By: millermiles Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/26/21 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by millermiles
Not affordable UI and UX design in this app. Think about creating my own with Link
Seems interesting solution.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/27/21 07:58 PM
Frank,

I submitted some feedback via the beta program today, but it might not have come out too clearly. With a new build, I decided to redo all the iH measurements. I was expecting, after that, that there would be enough data for a pitch raise (indeed, the old data I had entered a couple of weeks ago was still there). To my surprise, on selecting new pitch raise, I was prompted to re-enter a bunch of notes to set the initial tuning - even though I'd just sampled every single note of iH. My understanding was that the pitch raise function should have been able to use these iH measurements as a measure of the initial pitch? The manual says this, but I was never presented with the screen to do so.

Paul.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/27/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by pyropaul
I submitted some feedback via the beta program today, but it might not have come out too clearly. With a new build, I decided to redo all the iH measurements. I was expecting, after that, that there would be enough data for a pitch raise (indeed, the old data I had entered a couple of weeks ago was still there). To my surprise, on selecting new pitch raise, I was prompted to re-enter a bunch of notes to set the initial tuning - even though I'd just sampled every single note of iH. My understanding was that the pitch raise function should have been able to use these iH measurements as a measure of the initial pitch? The manual says this, but I was never presented with the screen to do so.

Paul, thanks for the feedback. This is most probably a bug. Carrying over the pitch from the IH measurement definitely works if you have not yet started a pitch-raise before with the same document. I will fix this. But it will take until early next week, since I am quite busy at the moment.
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/28/21 01:22 PM
Thanks Frank - I've been using the same document for all my testing so far.

Paul
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/29/21 08:27 PM
I worked on a Lyon & Healy spinet today and found that the solution (this time) for problematic octaves across the break was to reduce the weighting (when viewing the inharmonicity graph) down to 25%. Then the octaves and other intervals seemed to behave a bit better with a smoother tuning curve just above the break.

The bottom octave still ends up sharper than I would like - not sure if it is focusing on the 4:2 or some lower partial match than the typical 6:3 or larger for the lowest octave?

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/30/21 06:05 AM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
I worked on a Lyon & Healy spinet today and found that the solution (this time) for problematic octaves across the break was to reduce the weighting (when viewing the inharmonicity graph) down to 25%. Then the octaves and other intervals seemed to behave a bit better with a smoother tuning curve just above the break.
The bottom octave still ends up sharper than I would like - not sure if it is focusing on the 4:2 or some lower partial match than the typical 6:3 or larger for the lowest octave?

Thanks Ron, I am currently working on the sharp bass issue. I currently think that the reason for the current behaviour is that my loudness model is putting too much emphasis on low frequencies which leads for example to 2:1 and 4:1 octaves being too strongly weighted in the bass making the 6:3 octaves too narrow. So I think that your change with the inharmonicity weight might only be a coincidental remedy. I will do more testing and hopefully have a new version soon for you to try.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 03/30/21 01:42 PM
Thanks! I felt like adjusting the Ih weight just helped smooth the octaves over the break.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 09:22 AM
I have just released build 478 of pianoscope which should fix a number of issues that you all had reported.

The biggest change is a new loudness model for partial intensities that should better fit human perception. It puts significantly less emphasis on low frequencies and should fix the problem with a too sharp bass that some of you encountered. In the last days I have performed many new automated test calculations with recordings of a dozen different pianos, from a tiny spinet up to a large Fazioli. I also compared the resulting tuning curves against Verituner and PianoMeter and the resulting stretches now look very similar in all these cases. I am very interested in how the updated model works for you.

I also adjusted the partial weights of the default tuning styles to fit the new loudness model. If you have existing tuning documents that you want to re-use, I strongly recommend that you reset your styles to the new factory values. You do this by swiping left on the selected tuning style in the tuning curve view and by selecting "Discard Changes".

In the inharmonicity view, you can now choose between a fine and a coarse measurement. The fine mode requests you to play all notes up to C7, the coarse mode all As and Es up to E6. In both modes, you are free to record any notes you want as before. The fine mode is the default and is recommended if you want maximum precision. I updated the documentation to reflect the changes.

The new build also contains a couple of smaller changes and fixes which are listed in the release notes in Test Flight.

Thanks again for your great feedback. You guys are amazing!
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Is it possible that reducing the measurement of each partial down to a single inharmonicity constant loses the specific partail information needed to really accurately predict 3rds speeds for a specific instrument? Hakki, does yours boil the data down on each note to an inharmonicity constant?l
Ron, I have tried both retaining the measured partials and using a single constant while developing PiaTune.
After extensive testing I came to the conclusion that, if modelled correctly, a single constant could reproduce the measured partials accurate enough not to cause any discrepancy in beat rates.
Currently PiaTune is using an inharmonicity constant. Since PiaTune measures every note as you tune and bases its calculations on measured notes only and does not use any guesswork, the end result is similar to an aural concert tuner’s tuning. Verituner keeps the partials information rather than using a single constant, as far as I know.

Hakki & Ron: I plan to perform extensive measurements on this topic in the next days. The open questions for me are:

a) How big exactly is the additional error you get when you combine the partial information of every note into a single IH number provided that the inharmonicity of all notes is measured? This approach is currently used by Cybertuner, PianoMeter, PiaTune and TuneLab so the error can't be too bad, but I want to objectify the error.

b) How big is the error you get from measuring inharmonicities on detuned unisons? This is important for saving time in apps which measure many notes upfront like PianoMeter and pianoscope.

If an app measures only a sample of notes and derives the others from a model, there is an additional error, which strongly depends on the instrument. TuneLab and Cybertuner take this road, and pianoscope in the coarse mode. But I am less interested in this error as it can be avoided by simply pre-measuring more notes. And as IH measurement can be done fast, it should not be a problem. The benefits of a pre-measurement are that the tuning algorithm has more information to perform a global optimization and to allow tuning in any order.

If the answer to question a) should turn out to show a significant error – contrary to what Hakki observed – I could easily change pianoscope to use the full partial information instead of a single IH number for every note. I am curious to see the results and I will be happy to share them with you.

I would like to derive a metric and a threshold from b) with which I can prompt the user to mute the strings of a certain note when I detect an unsufficient partial / IH measurement. This would have the benefit of not having to always mute all strings for the highest precision. A question to you practiced pros: How much more time does it cost you if you have to mute all the unisons when pre-measuring?
Posted By: Vlad Ants Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 09:59 AM
Hello Frank!
Your program has worked very well for tuning poorly scalable pianos. But... There are a few notes regarding the interface design.
1. Allow the user to choose their brightness and contrast of squares up to the same type as in Tunelab. If this interferes with the perception of the needle, then it is possible to change the color of the needle to the opposite at the place where the needle is placed on the square.
2. Since we can now control notes and octaves by pressing and swiping, there is no need for the keyboard to always be at the bottom of the screen (except for the harmonics view). This will make room for the phase display.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 12:56 PM
Frank, thanks for the updates!

For measuring - it is so much easier and takes less dexterity to just play notes while watching the red turn to green on the keyboard display that keeps the process very quick.

To shift focus up and down while moving mutes isn't a deal-breaker if the results are better, but certainly slows down the process.

I did tune a piano yesterday that was 100-200 cents flat and couldn't get readings to begin the pre-measuring phase. I wonder if having some inharmonicity templates for average scales (something like - spinet, upright, small grand, grand)would be a help to pitch raise without measuring inharmonicity, just measuring the starting pitch of selected notes?

It may be that allowing any note to be played during the inharmonicity measuring now makes it difficult for the app to discern what note is being played when the piano is way out of pitch?


Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Vlad Ants
Hello Frank!
Your program has worked very well for tuning poorly scalable pianos. But... There are a few notes regarding the interface design.
1. Allow the user to choose their brightness and contrast of squares up to the same type as in Tunelab. If this interferes with the perception of the needle, then it is possible to change the color of the needle to the opposite at the place where the needle is placed on the square.
2. Since we can now control notes and octaves by pressing and swiping, there is no need for the keyboard to always be at the bottom of the screen (except for the harmonics view). This will make room for the phase display.

Thanks, Vlad. Both your suggestions make sense. I will try them out.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 03:50 PM
Hi Frank! Today I decided to make an experiment. I chose the Gerbstadt cabinet piano with a very big non-harmonicity. I set up this piano for three programs. Two iPhone 6S and iPhone SE. Tunelab, Verituner and Pianoscope programs. At Tunelab I tried all the styles and I did not get a good result. Strongly overestimated 5, 6, and 7 octaves. Verituner made an A4-A3 octave too wide and bass too low. Pianoscope has done excellent, all settings were default and not a single error. Frank, would like a stroboscope not pale and with clear edges, this is the eye of the program. With sunlight and with high glare it is not visible at all. I liked that Vlad offers you.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by D520
Hi Frank! Today I decided to make an experiment. I chose the "Gerbstadt" cabinet piano with a very big non-harmonicity. I set up this piano for three programs. Two iPhone 6S and iPhone SE. Tunelab, Verituner and Pianoscope programs. At Tunelab I tried all the styles and I did not get a good result. Strongly overestimated 5, 6, and 7 octaves. Verituner made an A4-A3 octave too wide and bass too low. Pianoscope has done excellent, all settings were default and not a single error. Frank, would like a stroboscope not pale and with clear edges, this is the eye of the program. With sunlight and with high glare it is not visible at all. I liked that Vlad offers you.
Posted By: RickO Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 09:16 PM
D520,
Please explain: was not a good result with Tunelab and Verituner A4-A3 too wide and bass to flat. Aural interval tests?
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/01/21 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by RickO
D520,
Please explain: was not a good result with Tunelab and Verituner A4-A3 too wide and bass to flat. Aural interval tests?
All heard on the ear. Tunelab makes strange and illogical calculations. Sometimes an octave A3-A4 when installing 3: 1 wider than when installing 6: 3, and sometimes the opposite. High constantly sound too high. Verituner due to the fact that it measures every note, transfers errors to other octaves. There is no integrity of the system. For example, if you measure A4, then in these two programs the result is absolutely different. In Tunelab, high frequency tones sound higher than in Verituner and as a result of octaves 4: 1 sounds too high. In Pianoscope, everything sounds smoothly.
Posted By: DavidWB Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/02/21 02:58 AM
Also, please say what Verituner Style you used.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/02/21 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
I did tune a piano yesterday that was 100-200 cents flat and couldn't get readings to begin the pre-measuring phase. It may be that allowing any note to be played during the inharmonicity measuring now makes it difficult for the app to discern what note is being played when the piano is way out of pitch?

Ron, thanks for reporting this. As it turned out, this was a bug which made the inharmonicity and pitch raise views not work well with very flat instruments (>150 cents). I have just released build 483 in which this should work much better now.

Originally Posted by RonTuner
I wonder if having some inharmonicity templates for average scales (something like - spinet, upright, small grand, grand)would be a help to pitch raise without measuring inharmonicity, just measuring the starting pitch of selected notes?

In principle, I can get enough inharmonicity information out of the pitch-raise measurements. I will think about how to visually present both measurements inside the pitch-raise view, so that you can perform both measurements in a single pass.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/02/21 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by D520
Hi Frank! Today I decided to make an experiment. I chose the Gerbstadt cabinet piano with a very big non-harmonicity. I set up this piano for three programs. Two iPhone 6S and iPhone SE. Tunelab, Verituner and Pianoscope programs. At Tunelab I tried all the styles and I did not get a good result. Strongly overestimated 5, 6, and 7 octaves. Verituner made an A4-A3 octave too wide and bass too low. Pianoscope has done excellent, all settings were default and not a single error.

D520, thanks for the feedback. It is good to know pianoscope has so far passed your tests.

Originally Posted by D520
Frank, would like a stroboscope not pale and with clear edges, this is the eye of the program. With sunlight and with high glare it is not visible at all. I liked that Vlad offers you.

I am already working on an update with more contast and sharpness options for the strobe.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/03/21 01:19 AM
Thanks for continuing to update.

Looking forward to testing. I did notice today that the note switching was odd - even on "off", it was jumping notes and when I went to chromatic up or down it still wanted to jump away from the note I was playing. When using full auto note switching, it worked better. There was some kind of background 'hum' in the room that might have been interfering.

Kimball console - 100-150 cents flat (It's been my week for these...) I greatly enjoy the "play the notes" for the pitch raise parameters. Easy to play, then use the slider to put it on the right note. Thanks for that!

The top stretched higher than I like in the last octave or so. I do know that many of these Kimball pianos have high inharmonicity, (difficult scales at the best of times) so trying to match the wider intervals will often leave the upper notes strident when octaves are played. I've seen all the custom stretch parameters, but didn't play with them at the piano - perhaps just pulling down the extra treble stretch slider would've been enough.

Ron Koval
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/03/21 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
I did notice today that the note switching was odd - even on "off", it was jumping notes and when I went to chromatic up or down it still wanted to jump away from the note I was playing. When using full auto note switching, it worked better. There was some kind of background 'hum' in the room that might have been interfering.

Sorry for this. I introduced a regression with the last build. It should be fixed again with build 499.

Originally Posted by RonTuner
Kimball console - 100-150 cents flat (It's been my week for these...) I greatly enjoy the "play the notes" for the pitch raise parameters. Easy to play, then use the slider to put it on the right note. Thanks for that!

You're welcome. It was your idea smile

Originally Posted by RonTuner
The top stretched higher than I like in the last octave or so. I do know that many of these Kimball pianos have high inharmonicity, (difficult scales at the best of times) so trying to match the wider intervals will often leave the upper notes strident when octaves are played. I've seen all the custom stretch parameters, but didn't play with them at the piano - perhaps just pulling down the extra treble stretch slider would've been enough.

I would like to analyze this. Do you still have the pianoscope tuning document? If so, please send it to support@pianoscope.app .
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/03/21 01:22 PM
I have just released build 499 with a handful of new features for configuring the look and behaviour of the tuning view.

- You can now set the strobe contrast to "very high".
- There is a new contour setting for the strobe. With it you can replace the blurry edges of the strobe with a sharp contour.
- You can now define activation thresholds for the line indicator and the strobe in the settings. With them you can for example show the strobe only when you are less than 5 cents from the tuning target and the indicator otherwise.
- There is a new setting to always hide the scale, or to dynamically only show it if the line indicator is visible.
- There is a new setting to hide the keyboard.
- The keyboard can be toggled by double-tapping on the red note name label.

I also updated the manual to describe the new options.
I hope these new features help you all to configure pianoscope to your needs.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/03/21 01:26 PM
Done.

The treble ended up with around 55 cents offset for C. I preferred it around 40, but lowered pitches starting around G6 or so to get there? It could just be personal preference, I tend to aim for "sweeter" rather than "sparkle" up there...

Ron Koval
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/03/21 01:40 PM
Looking back at the file this morning, I realize I didn't take full inharmonicity readings in the treble - maybe that had something to do with it?

Ron Koval
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/09/21 12:46 PM
Frank - another idea for a small improvement.

If you're in the mode where the partials display is on, but the keyboard is off, often times the partials don't show up because there's an implicit assumption that the keyboard would be there aligned with the display where it was last put. This means that sometimes no partials show - you have to scroll the invisible keyboard until you're in the right range. It would be good if the 1st partial could automatically be left-aligned so you don't have to scroll to find them.

Paul.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/12/21 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Frank - another idea for a small improvement.
If you're in the mode where the partials display is on, but the keyboard is off, often times the partials don't show up because there's an implicit assumption that the keyboard would be there aligned with the display where it was last put. This means that sometimes no partials show - you have to scroll the invisible keyboard until you're in the right range. It would be good if the 1st partial could automatically be left-aligned so you don't have to scroll to find them.

Paul, actually I regard it as a bug, that the partials area is not hidden together with the keyboard view, as the keyboard is the main pitch reference for it. I fixed this in the latest build 522. If you really need the partials indicator without the keyboard, I can rethink this.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/12/21 06:39 AM
I have just released build 522 of pianoscope with the following changes:

- Attack detection in the high treble should now be more reliable.
- You can now manually switch notes in tuning view via the keyboard or swiping while a tone is sounding. The view will now adjust accordingly.
- The automatic note selection in the inharmonicity view now allows to easily re-measure consecutive notes without having to delete all measurements.

Please let me know if you should encounter any regressions in the note detection.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/12/21 07:03 AM
The other day, a beta tester sent me an interesting question via e-mail. He asked whether it is necessary to re-measure the inharmonicity for fine tuning after pitch raising a piano that was 20 cents flat. As I haven't made any measurements yet on the relation between string tension and inharmonicity, I have tried to derive an answer from theory. I find the result quite interesting, so I want to share it with you. The deduction is using some math. I hope this doesn't scare anyone away.


The Fletcher model describes inharmonicity as:

B = Pi^2 * Q * S * K^2 / (T * l^2)

Q being the Young's modulus of the string, S its cross sectional area, K the gyration radius, T the string tension and l its length.
For a single string, we can simply pack most string parameters into a single constant C and only keep the tension T. Then we get

B = C / T

The fundamental frequency f of a string can be described by:

f = (1/(2 * l)) * sqrt(T/mu)

With l again being string length and mu being the linear string density. We again combine some parameters into another constant D and get.

f = D sqrt(T)

When we combine both equations by eliminating the tension T, we get:

B = C / (f^2 * D^2)

If we now raise the frequency by c cents, we get a new frequency f':

f' = f * 2^(c/1200)

With this we also get a new inharmonicity:

B' = C / (f'^2 * D^2) = C / (f^2 * 2^(c/600) * D^2) = B / 2^(c/600)

This is our result:

B' / B = 2^(-c/600)

If you raise a string by c cents, you will change the inharmonicity by a factor of 2^(-c/600)


So lets put some numbers into this formula:

For a 20 cents raise, we get a factor of 0.98 or a decrease of 2% in inharmonicity.
For a 50 cents raise, we get a factor of 0.94 or a decrease or 6% in inharmonicity.
For a 100 cents raise, we get a factor of 0.89 or a decrease of 11% in inharmonicity.
For a 200 cents raise, we get a factor of 0.79 or a decrease of 21% in inharmonicity.

In the interesting region, the formula is actually nearly linear.

So we can easily estimate the inharmonicity change with ~ -1% per every 10 cents of pitch raise.

The measurement error of pianoscope for inharmonicities is about 2-3%, especially when measuring unmuted unisons. So one could see a small effect when remeasuring after a pitch raise of 20 cents, but most of it will be within the margin of error. For larger pitch raises >50 cents however, I would recommend to remeasure the inharmonicity before a fine tuning pass if one wants to get the best result.

I hope I correctly deduced this result. If you spot an error or if this result contradicts your experience please let me know.
Posted By: AWilley Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/12/21 06:30 PM
Great analysis! I would add that, continuing to use Fletcher's model, the shifts in the harmonic frequencies vary with the square root of the inharmonicity B. Specifically, Fn = n*F0*sqrt(1+B*n^2) where n is the harmonic number (1,2,3,..), F0 is the fundamental frequency, and Fn is the frequency of the nth harmonic. So an error of 6% in the inharmonicity constant B would only translate into a 3% error in the calculated harmonic frequencies. I don't have data to back this up, but I suspect that errors due to pianos not conforming exactly to Fletcher's model would be more significant than this.
Posted By: Robert Scott Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/12/21 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by AWilley
Great analysis! I would add that, continuing to use Fletcher's model, the shifts in the harmonic frequencies vary with the square root of the inharmonicity B. Specifically, Fn = n*F0*sqrt(1+B*n^2) where n is the harmonic number (1,2,3,..), F0 is the fundamental frequency, and Fn is the frequency of the nth harmonic. So an error of 6% in the inharmonicity constant B would only translate into a 3% error in the calculated harmonic frequencies.

I don't think that is quite right. The formula quoted shows the frequency varies with the square root of (1+B*n^2). The thing under that square root is not proportional to B because of the "1+..". The formula I am familiar with is that

log2(Fn/(n*F0)) = 1200*B*n^2

which implies

Fn/(n*F0) = 2^(1200*B*n^2)

For typical small values of B, this differs from 1.000 by an amount that is approximately proportional to B.

But I too am very interested to hear the results of empirical studies on how a pitch raise affects inharmonicity.
Posted By: AWilley Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/13/21 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by Robert Scott
I don't think that is quite right. The formula quoted shows the frequency varies with the square root of (1+B*n^2). The thing under that square root is not proportional to B because of the "1+..".

You're right. Looking at it again, I think I should have used the "binomial approximation" where sqrt(1+B*n^2) ≈ 1+(B*n^2)/2. (That only works if B*n^2 is small compared to 1, which is usually true.) Oddly the error still gets halved.

Originally Posted by Robert Scott
The formula I am familiar with is that

log2(Fn/(n*F0)) = 1200*B*n^2

I'm not familiar with that formula but it's very suggestive of working in cents rather than frequency. I just spent 10 minutes trying to get from Fletcher's formula to this one, but it's too late at night for that right now.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/23/21 06:56 PM
Target is indicated under the red note symbol. In the settings, you can choose to display in hertz, cents, hertz along with cents. It would be nice to add the ability to completely disable information in this block, add the None item in the settings. It makes no sense to make the adjustment scale from -100 cents to +100 cents, quite enough from -50 to +50. A scale of -50 to +50 increases the sensitivity of the pitch bend display.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/24/21 10:18 AM
I have just released build 565 of pianoscope with a couple of new features:

- You can now start a pitch raise without having to measure the inharmonicity first. If no prior inharmonicity measurement is available, the inharmonicity is recorded alongside the pitches during the pitch raise setup. This should further speed up the process of preparing a pitch raise. By swiping up or down in the chart, you can switch to show the measured inharmonicities.

- You can now show pitch information in the inharmonicity view. Simply swipe up or down in the chart to switch between the inharmonicity and pitch charts. The pitch chart also contains the pitches you have measured during tuning.

- The more menu in the tuning curve view now also offers an option to show the actual pitches measured during tuning.

- You can disable showing the target pitch altogether in the general settings.

I hope you enjoy these new features.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/24/21 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by D520
Target is indicated under the red note symbol. In the settings, you can choose to display in hertz, cents, hertz along with cents. It would be nice to add the ability to completely disable information in this block, add the None item in the settings.

In build 565 I have added a "none" setting as you requested.

Originally Posted by D520
It makes no sense to make the adjustment scale from -100 cents to +100 cents, quite enough from -50 to +50. A scale of -50 to +50 increases the sensitivity of the pitch bend display.

I think a scale from -100 to +100 can provide some orientation when pitch raising very flat instruments. But I could however make the range configurable.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/26/21 08:29 PM
When measuring disharmony, the Fine Tuning mode is suggested first. Better if Coarse Tuning was the default. Thanks for the prompt changes.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/26/21 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by D520
It makes no sense to make the adjustment scale from -100 cents to +100 cents, quite enough from -50 to +50. A scale of -50 to +50 increases the sensitivity of the pitch bend display.

I have just released build 569 which now allows you to change the range of the tuning scale. It can now cover either ±100 cents or only ±50 cents. You can switch between both ranges via the indicator scale settings or simply by pinching inside the scale. If an overpull of more than 50 cents is required when pitch raising, the scale automatically switches to ±100 Cents.
Posted By: Alex Hutor Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/27/21 12:55 AM
Hello Frank. Thank you very much for the awesome app, thanks for the quick updates. I have something to compare with, I choose Pianoscope.
I would like to suggest an addition. It would be possible to disable the banner about the need to measure inharmonicity in the settings at will, and automatically start the measurement with a new tuning. And in the settings you can offer a choice of which mode will be the default - Fine Tuning or Coarse Tuning
Posted By: OE1FEU Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/27/21 07:34 AM
Quick question:

My household is completely free from any Apple product so far - and I have no intention whatsoever to change this. However, I am interested in this tuning app and wonder a) what are the minimum requirements in terms of hardware (iPhone version/iOS version) and b) is it possible at all to use an iPhone without becoming part of the Apple eco system in terms of requiring an account to load software or getting OS updates.

Otherwise I'll just wait and see whether there will be an Android version at one point.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/27/21 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Alex Hutor
I would like to suggest an addition. It would be possible to disable the banner about the need to measure inharmonicity in the settings at will, and automatically start the measurement with a new tuning. And in the settings you can offer a choice of which mode will be the default - Fine Tuning or Coarse Tuning

Alex, thanks for your feedback. I think about turning this into one or two options.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/27/21 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
My household is completely free from any Apple product so far - and I have no intention whatsoever to change this.

What exactly are your concerns with the Apple platform?

Originally Posted by OE1FEU
a) what are the minimum requirements in terms of hardware (iPhone version/iOS version)?

pianoscope requires iOS or iPadOS 14.2 or later. Here you can find the list of supported iPhones and iPads:

https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/iphe3fa5df43/ios
https://support.apple.com/guide/ipad/ipad213a25b2/ipados

Originally Posted by OE1FEU
b) is it possible at all to use an iPhone without becoming part of the Apple eco system in terms of requiring an account to load software or getting OS updates.

To load software onto an iPhone or iPad, you need an account, a so-called Apple ID. But you do not need to connect it to any personal data like a credit card. To purchase software, you need a payment method. If you do not want to provide credit card details, you can buy iTunes gift cards and redeem them under your Apple ID.

Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Otherwise I'll just wait and see whether there will be an Android version at one point.

I don't have plans to port pianoscope to any other platform. But there are fine alternatives which run under Android or Windows, like PianoMeter, TuneLab or Verituner.
Posted By: OE1FEU Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 04/29/21 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
My household is completely free from any Apple product so far - and I have no intention whatsoever to change this.

What exactly are your concerns with the Apple platform?

[...]

I don't have plans to port pianoscope to any other platform. But there are fine alternatives which run under Android or Windows, like PianoMeter, TuneLab or Verituner.

I try to avoid a vendor lock-in whenever possible and I will thus continue to use the products you mentioned.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/01/21 10:17 AM
I have just released build 582 of pianoscope. It now finally supports unequal temperaments. In the instrument settings you can select one of about 70 common temperaments from older and more recent history or create your own. I have also updated the manual to cover all new functions concerning temperaments.

I am curious to see how the new features work for you.
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/01/21 03:55 PM
Thanks for adding the unequal temperament feature Frank! For custom temperaments, I can't figure out how to add a negative offset of -0.xx cents. You probably need to add a -0 option to the picker on the left and distinguish it from +0.

I would also like to see Bill Bremmer's EBVT III (https://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/) as a preset option. It is a mild well temperament attributed to Neidhardt (1724) but most commonly associated with Bremmer, who independently developed the temperament and its tuning sequence.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/01/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Thanks for adding the unequal temperament feature Frank! For custom temperaments, I can't figure out how to add a negative offset of -0.xx cents. You probably need to add a -0 option to the picker on the left and distinguish it from +0.

Oh yes, you're right. This is a bug. I will fix it soon.

Originally Posted by pianofish
I would also like to see Bill Bremmer's EBVT III (https://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/) as a preset option. It is a mild well temperament attributed to Neidhardt (1724) but most commonly associated with Bremmer, who independently developed the temperament and its tuning sequence.

Thanks for the hint. I will add it.
Posted By: Alex Hutor Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/01/21 06:08 PM
Frank, thanks for updating the app! It seems to me that the information in the Header can be distributed both to the left and to the right. And the choice is left to the user where he wants to see it. For example, I would like to see Concert Pitch on the left, and Style and Temperament on the right, but for someone it is convenient as it is now
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/02/21 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Alex Hutor
Frank, thanks for updating the app! It seems to me that the information in the Header can be distributed both to the left and to the right. And the choice is left to the user where he wants to see it. For example, I would like to see Concert Pitch on the left, and Style and Temperament on the right, but for someone it is convenient as it is now

In build 587 I've picked up on Alex's idea and made the header labels assignable to a side. It is now also possible to enter custom temperament offsets between -1 and 0 cents. And I added the EBVT III temperament as requested by pianofish. Have fun!
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/07/21 08:15 PM
Finally got back to trying with the new temperament options, as well as pitch adjustment.
I do like the "quick-start" for pitch raising - especially for larger ones where I just want to get to the first pass as quickly as possible.

Since I float pitch, I will have to watch out when using a saved file - the pitch offset stays with the file, so next time it won't revert to A=440 and I could possibly tune to a pitch I didn't want for that time of year...

For those experimenting, if you want to hear a piano tuned as I normally do, use the "octaves pure" selection under styles in the tuning curve and the Koval variable 1.3 found in the instrument settings under temperaments. This left the two pianos today (Samick grand and Yamaha U1) pretty much where my custom Verituner setting calculated. I haven't tried to compare a spinet or console yet.

You can use the mild temperament with confidence, it is pretty much a "stealth" temperament with the largest offset from ET being only 1.3 cents.

Ron Koval
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/11/21 10:17 AM
Pitch raise
I was very pleased with the first pass of a 20 cent pitch raise. Most notes finished within 1-3 cents of pitch. It made me wonder whether it would be possible to collect data from pitch raises and refine the overpull calculations to get the piano even closer to pitch after a single pass. The formula can take into account the piano’s model and year, as well as environmental conditions. These factors should have predictive value if the manufacturer is reasonably consistent. Though it takes time to measure the before/after pitch, you could make it a requirement for users who wish to opt into this improved “cloud tuning.”

Some graphics explaining "highest bass bridge note" etc. could be helpful for non-pros going through the pitch raise process for the first time. I figured it out without looking at the documentation, but a picture would have made me more confident of my selections.

Suggestion to add a Pareto-efficient tuning mode
It could also be worthwhile to have a special mode that tunes the piano to itself (instead of A440) while changing the fewest number of notes or strings. Now that my piano is in tune, I find myself looking at the tuning curve and fixing the worst offenders. This process is slower than I would like. It would be nice to measure all 88 keys and tune them one at a time with pianoscope determining the optimal order.

Stopping prematurely should result in the best-sounding piano given the number of strings tuned. I think this would be useful for obsessive pianists who tune frequently, and possibly for professionals during the fine tuning stage, or for doing a quick touch-up tuning.

Tuning Curve
One thing that I like about PianoMeter is the tuning curve display being integrated with the pitch needle / phase display. It provides situational awareness of the piano’s state as it is being tuned. In pianoscope, I don’t like how it takes 2 taps to reach the Tuning Curve screen, especially if I view it after tuning each note. 1 tap would be ideal.

(Note to Anthony if you are reading this, I wish PianoMeter would have the option to full-screen or zoom the Tuning Curve. Once the piano is close to in tune, the narrow range in the y-axis makes it hard to identify the notes with the biggest errors.)

Pop-up menu inadvertently closing on iPad
On an iPad, it’s annoying how tapping outside the boundaries of a pop-up menu causes it to close. It should have no effect. Tapping "Done" should be the only way to close out of a pop-up menu when it is invoked by a user selection.

This problem does not manifest on iPhone because pop-up menus take up the whole screen.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/11/21 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Finally got back to trying with the new temperament options, as well as pitch adjustment.
I do like the "quick-start" for pitch raising - especially for larger ones where I just want to get to the first pass as quickly as possible.

Great!

Originally Posted by RonTuner
Since I float pitch, I will have to watch out when using a saved file - the pitch offset stays with the file, so next time it won't revert to A=440 and I could possibly tune to a pitch I didn't want for that time of year...

As a safeguard, you can configure the tune view header to always show the chosen concert pitch.

Originally Posted by RonTuner
For those experimenting, if you want to hear a piano tuned as I normally do, use the "octaves pure" selection under styles in the tuning curve and the Koval variable 1.3 found in the instrument settings under temperaments. This left the two pianos today (Samick grand and Yamaha U1) pretty much where my custom Verituner setting calculated.

I am glad the new features are working for you.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/11/21 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Pitch raise
I was very pleased with the first pass of a 20 cent pitch raise. Most notes finished within 1-3 cents of pitch. It made me wonder whether it would be possible to collect data from pitch raises and refine the overpull calculations to get the piano even closer to pitch after a single pass. The formula can take into account the piano’s model and year, as well as environmental conditions. These factors should have predictive value if the manufacturer is reasonably consistent. Though it takes time to measure the before/after pitch, you could make it a requirement for users who wish to opt into this improved “cloud tuning.”

Currently, pianoscope is not collecting any data or sending anything back home. But crowd-sourcing overpull data is an interesting idea.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Some graphics explaining "highest bass bridge note" etc. could be helpful for non-pros going through the pitch raise process for the first time. I figured it out without looking at the documentation, but a picture would have made me more confident of my selections.

Thanks for the feedback. I will consider adding some drawings to the pitch-raise setup.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Suggestion to add a Pareto-efficient tuning mode
It could also be worthwhile to have a special mode that tunes the piano to itself (instead of A440) while changing the fewest number of notes or strings. Now that my piano is in tune, I find myself looking at the tuning curve and fixing the worst offenders. This process is slower than I would like. It would be nice to measure all 88 keys and tune them one at a time with pianoscope determining the optimal order.
Stopping prematurely should result in the best-sounding piano given the number of strings tuned. I think this would be useful for obsessive pianists who tune frequently, and possibly for professionals during the fine tuning stage, or for doing a quick touch-up tuning.

I like the idea. Should not be too hard to implement.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Tuning Curve
One thing that I like about PianoMeter is the tuning curve display being integrated with the pitch needle / phase display. It provides situational awareness of the piano’s state as it is being tuned. In pianoscope, I don’t like how it takes 2 taps to reach the Tuning Curve screen, especially if I view it after tuning each note. 1 tap would be ideal.

I understand your desire. I will think about how to improve this.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Pop-up menu inadvertently closing on iPad
On an iPad, it’s annoying how tapping outside the boundaries of a pop-up menu causes it to close. It should have no effect. Tapping "Done" should be the only way to close out of a pop-up menu when it is invoked by a user selection.
This problem does not manifest on iPhone because pop-up menus take up the whole screen.

On the iPad, pianoscope is using the behaviour Apple is recommending for page sheets: Sheets which do not contain unsaved data should be dismissable by tapping outside of them or by swiping down. The sheets in Pages, Numbers, Keynote and many other apps are behaving like this. So with pianoscope I am trying to be a good citizen and to meet people's expectations.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/12/21 07:40 PM
The Pianoscope app deserves a high score for the best tuning results compared to other apps. The main thing is that the program really solves the problems of inharmony at a high level. The application is convenient, easy to use, designed to make life easier for the piano tuner and become his reliable companion. I have tested on various types of pianos and have always gotten a good result.
While working with the program, I noticed some drawbacks.
1. Sometimes strobes and indicator disappear until you press the adjacent key.
2. Make the default choice (Fine Tuning) or (Coarse Tuning) in the settings to remove unnecessary banners before a new measurement.
3. When contour (Sharp) is selected in the strobe setting, the strobes are too wide. It would be nice to make them a little narrower, so that you can work both in portrait and landscape mode.
4. Keyboard size is not saved when rotating iphone screen.
Posted By: Alex Hutor Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/12/21 08:09 PM
I am working with IPhone SE, I am having problems with Tuning Curve display. When I turn off the "Show Actual Pitches" item, the scale of the curve is reduced to ±20 cents.

[Linked Image]


And on one piano it gave me this:

[Linked Image]

In fact, these are unpleasant, but trifles. The app itself is very pleasing, both with the quality of the result and with the ease of use.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/13/21 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Hi John,

to calculate their tunings, apps like Verituner or TuneLab take an approach which is similar to the procedure of aural tuning. In a first step they start from the given concert pitch and build a temperament octave, like A3-A4. From the notes in the temperament octave they go outwards and minimize the beating of a fixed tuning interval in every region, like 6:3 for A0-A3, 4:1 for A4-C8. You as a tuner have to decide, which tuning intervals are suitable for an individual instrument.

pianoscope on the other hand first builds a model of the inharmonicity and the partial strengths of all notes of an individual instrument. You have to play a sample of 12 notes, each for a second. From this it calculates a tuning by GLOBALLY optimizing a whole set of slow-beating intervals, like fourths 4:3, 8:6, fifths 3:2, 6:4, octaves 2:1, 4:2, 6:3, 8:4, 10:5 - twelfths 3:1, 6:2, 9:3, double octaves 4:1, 8:2, nineteenths and triple octaves. As pianoscope knows the strength of the partials before it constructs a tuning, it can individually adjust the weights for all intervals according to it. You only have to decide, which tuning style you or the customer prefer in principle, if you for example prefer pure twelfths over octaves, or want a compromise of both. You do not need to make decisions for an individual instrument.

(snip the rest of the quote)


Frank, I wanted to return to this from page 1. Am I correct in understanding that the tuning can possibly change across the temperament region in response to measurements on the other side? As you stated, the Verituner works from the middle outwards - going down or up refers back towards the temperament, but doesn't take into consideration inharmonicity measurements on the other side of the A3-A4 octave, as I understand.

In the Pianoscope model, can notes below A3, like in poorly designed scales, have an effect on notes above A4 as the software searches for better balancing of intervals?

Ron Koval
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/14/21 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
On the iPad, pianoscope is using the behaviour Apple is recommending for page sheets: Sheets which do not contain unsaved data should be dismissable by tapping outside of them or by swiping down.

Thank you for helping me understand. On the iPad, the page sheets for adding a new temperament are dismissed when tapping outside. Because some of the controls are close to the edge of the page sheet, it can be difficult to input all 12 offsets without accidentally losing the unsaved data for the new temperament.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/16/21 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by D520
The Pianoscope app deserves a high score for the best tuning results compared to other apps. The main thing is that the program really solves the problems of inharmony at a high level. The application is convenient, easy to use, designed to make life easier for the piano tuner and become his reliable companion. I have tested on various types of pianos and have always gotten a good result.

Thank you, I am glad you are getting so good results in your tunings.

Originally Posted by D520
While working with the program, I noticed some drawbacks.
1. Sometimes strobes and indicator disappear until you press the adjacent key.
2. Make the default choice (Fine Tuning) or (Coarse Tuning) in the settings to remove unnecessary banners before a new measurement.
3. When contour (Sharp) is selected in the strobe setting, the strobes are too wide. It would be nice to make them a little narrower, so that you can work both in portrait and landscape mode.
4. Keyboard size is not saved when rotating iphone screen.

1. I have not experienced this issue lately. I will look into it. If you find a way to reproduce it, let me know.

2. In a future update, I will offer to specify defaults for new documents, like tuning style, temperament, concert pitch, coarse / fine IH measurements

3. I will make the strobe blocks narrower for tight portrait situations.

4. I think I will have persist two separate settings for the keyboard size for portrait and landscape orientation.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/16/21 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Alex Hutor
I am working with IPhone SE, I am having problems with Tuning Curve display. When I turn off the "Show Actual Pitches" item, the scale of the curve is reduced to ±20 cents.

And on one piano it gave me this:

In fact, these are unpleasant, but trifles. The app itself is very pleasing, both with the quality of the result and with the ease of use.

Thanks Alex, I will fix both issues very soon with an update.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/16/21 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Frank, I wanted to return to this from page 1. Am I correct in understanding that the tuning can possibly change across the temperament region in response to measurements on the other side? As you stated, the Verituner works from the middle outwards - going down or up refers back towards the temperament, but doesn't take into consideration inharmonicity measurements on the other side of the A3-A4 octave, as I understand.

In the Pianoscope model, can notes below A3, like in poorly designed scales, have an effect on notes above A4 as the software searches for better balancing of intervals?

pianoscope does not have a special temperament octave. All possible interval combinations are optimized across the full scale according to the weights of the chosen tuning style. Therefore naturally notes below A3 can affect notes above A4, especially if you have strong weights on large intervals like nineteenths or triple octaves.
Posted By: D520 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/16/21 08:40 PM
Frank, you write that you will make stroboscopic blocks narrower in portrait mode. Just make them a little narrower in all modes, both portrait and landscape.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/16/21 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by D520
Frank, you write that you will make stroboscopic blocks narrower in portrait mode. Just make them a little narrower in all modes, both portrait and landscape.

In build 598 the strobe size is reduced significantly in portrait orientation on small iPhones, and somewhat according to the chosen contour so that visual size stays constant. Please check it out and tell me if it works for you.

Also, the keyboard can now have different persistent sizes in landscape and portrait orientation.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/17/21 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
On the iPad, pianoscope is using the behaviour Apple is recommending for page sheets: Sheets which do not contain unsaved data should be dismissable by tapping outside of them or by swiping down.

Thank you for helping me understand. On the iPad, the page sheets for adding a new temperament are dismissed when tapping outside. Because some of the controls are close to the edge of the page sheet, it can be difficult to input all 12 offsets without accidentally losing the unsaved data for the new temperament.

Pianofish, today I performed more tests on various iPads and I can now understand your problems of unwanted dismissals. In build 602 I disabled dismissing via swiping or taping outside of the page sheets.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/18/21 08:56 PM
Time to celebrate! After 16 months of development and nearly three months of beta testing with you guys, Apple finally approved v1.0 of pianoscope and I released it to the App Store today.

Thanks again to all of you for your great feedback and inspiration! The current public beta version you have been using will continue to work for 7 days. But I will keep improving pianoscope and will add more features in the future. So stay tuned to the TestFlight channel for future beta versions or follow @pianoscope_app on Twitter ( https://twitter.com/pianoscope_app ). And I am also always available here in the forum.

If you have come to like pianoscope, I would be very happy if you spread the word or if I could welcome you as customers. And if you are happy with the app, please rate it in the App Store, or even leave a review. This is a great way to support us indie developers.

You can download pianoscope from the App Store via this link: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pianoscope/id1529249459?platform=iphone

After the download you can again get 14 days of free trial for the pro edition.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/18/21 09:44 PM
The version currently in the app store seems to have a problem validating the start of the trial against the app store. I am looking into this and will hopefully find a solution to this soon.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/19/21 05:11 AM
Apple has already updated the store configuration and the trial version of pianoscope is now again working as expected. Please excuse the inconvenience.
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/22/21 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
For those experimenting, if you want to hear a piano tuned as I normally do, use the "octaves pure" selection under styles in the tuning curve and the Koval variable 1.3 found in the instrument settings under temperaments.

Thank you for sharing this Ron. I tried this on my Yamaha U1 and found intervals to be very clean and nicely stretched. It seems indistinguishable from equal temperament, but the piano sounds a little louder than normal, as if there is extra resonance. The result is quite nice across the entire range of the piano.

If you don't mind, can you recommend a temperament and settings for someone desiring a little key color? When tuning EVBT III with "balanced" tuning style, something about the stretch doesn't sound correct to me. I sense dissonance when playing notes below F2, and there is excessive beating with single octaves in the low bass. Although the midrange is fine, EVBT III doesn't seem as conducive to electronic tuning, at least with default settings.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/22/21 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Originally Posted by RonTuner
For those experimenting, if you want to hear a piano tuned as I normally do, use the "octaves pure" selection under styles in the tuning curve and the Koval variable 1.3 found in the instrument settings under temperaments.

Thank you for sharing this Ron. I tried this on my Yamaha U1 and found intervals to be very clean and nicely stretched. It seems indistinguishable from equal temperament, but the piano sounds a little louder than normal, as if there is extra resonance. The result is quite nice across the entire range of the piano.

If you don't mind, can you recommend a temperament and settings for someone desiring a little key color? When tuning EVBT III with "balanced" tuning style, something about the stretch doesn't sound correct to me. I sense dissonance when playing notes below F2, and there is excessive beating with single octaves in the low bass. Although the midrange is fine, EVBT III doesn't seem as conducive to electronic tuning, at least with default settings.

If the octaves pure stretch worked well for you, just go up a couple of steps in my variable temperament. I have a number of teachers that prefer the KV 2.1 for their studios.

The numbering system refers to the maximum offset from ET.

Ron Koval
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/22/21 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
In build 602 I disabled dismissing via swiping or taping outside of the page sheets.

That fixed the usability issues for me. Thanks for being so responsive.

Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
After 16 months of development and nearly three months of beta testing with you guys, Apple finally approved v1.0 of pianoscope and I released it to the App Store

Congratulations, Frank! And you have my best wishes for pianoscope's success.

I have been delighted with the nice results your app has produced for me. It has convinced me of the value of a professional-quality ETD for the hobbyist.
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/22/21 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by RonTuner
If the octaves pure stretch worked well for you, just go up a couple of steps in my variable temperament. I have a number of teachers that prefer the KV 2.1 for their studios.

The numbering system refers to the maximum offset from ET.

Ron, thank you for the suggestion. I wish to try something slightly milder than EVBT III. From Jason Kanter's charts, KV 2.9 looks to be comparable strength to EVBT III. I'll try the next level down which is KV 2.1.

That is a very logical numbering system. I confused them for version numbers. It all makes sense now.
Posted By: RonTuner Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/22/21 04:57 PM
Good luck! I worked a lot with spreadsheets and the resulting strengths all had some synchronous beating between M3/m3 in a major triad - if I remember correctly... That's what I aiming for when developing those.

It is the same temperament, scalable to different strengths - it should make retuning stronger or weaker pretty easy.

Ron Koval
Posted By: klavierdoktor.de Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/22/21 06:49 PM
Hello Frank, the app works very well. If I would like to have anything else, then the time and battery display in iPhone landscape format.

Best wishes
Burkhard
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 05/23/21 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by klavierdoktor.de
Hello Frank, the app works very well. If I would like to have anything else, then the time and battery display in iPhone landscape format.

Thank you.
I am aware of the missing status bar but I have not found a working solution to this problem as it is the iOS default to hide it in landscape orientation. But I am working on it.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/03/21 05:57 AM
Hi everybody,
today I have updated pianoscope to version 1.1 which contains the following new features:

- As requested, you can now configure the tuning view header on iPhones to show the current time and battery charge when in landscape orientation.
- The fields shown on the left and right hand side of the tuning view header can now be arranged in a custom order.
- I added a new button to the instrument settings dialog which saves the chosen concert pitch, tuning style, temperament and range as the default for new instruments.
- I added a new item to the menu for switching between fine and coarse tuning in the inharmonicity view. It saves the chosen selection as the default for new tunings.
- The app now also runs in Italian.

You can get the update via the App Store. Have fun tuning with it!
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/03/21 09:51 AM
Frank, I noticed a couple more issues. First, if you go to the Tuning Curve view while the app is in portrait mode, only the left half of the tuning curve is visible and it is not possible to scroll right to view the rest of it. If the device is subsequently rotated to landscape and back to portrait, then scrolling works.

Second, the note detection in the high treble doesn't perform as well as I would like with moderate amounts of background noise. For example, with a quiet conversation taking place in the same room, pianoscope can easily detect B5, but F#6 needs to be pressed 5 or 6 times for the app to detect the attack and show the strobe. This is not a serious issue as I usually tune in a quiet environment, but I am curious if pianoscope is expected to work under these conditions.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/05/21 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Frank, I noticed a couple more issues. First, if you go to the Tuning Curve view while the app is in portrait mode, only the left half of the tuning curve is visible and it is not possible to scroll right to view the rest of it. If the device is subsequently rotated to landscape and back to portrait, then scrolling works.

Thanks for reporting this. I currently cannot reproduce it. What iPhone or iPad are you using?

Originally Posted by pianofish
Second, the note detection in the high treble doesn't perform as well as I would like with moderate amounts of background noise. For example, with a quiet conversation taking place in the same room, pianoscope can easily detect B5, but F#6 needs to be pressed 5 or 6 times for the app to detect the attack and show the strobe. This is not a serious issue as I usually tune in a quiet environment, but I am curious if pianoscope is expected to work under these conditions.

I have put a lot of effort in dealing with background noise. However, the fewer partials a note has, the harder it is to differentiate it from background noise. I will look into this issue.
Posted By: pianofish Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/06/21 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Thanks for reporting this. I currently cannot reproduce it. What iPhone or iPad are you using?

The bug was noticed on an iPhone 12 Pro Max. The same bug also occurs on the Inharmonicity screen. The issue doesn't exist on iPad because the display is big enough to accommodate all 88 notes in portrait orientation.

To reproduce: start from the Tuning View in portrait orientation. Use the menu to view Inharmonicity or Tuning Curve. On this particular device, A0-C3 are initially visible. At this point one can swipe to view notes as high as A#3 (Inharmonicity) or G3 (Tuning Curve), but no further. Changing the orientation to landscape displays all 88 notes. Rotating back to portrait shows A0-C3, but one can now swipe to get all the way up to C8.

It's also a problem with "Measure Inharmonicity" if the device remains in portrait the whole time. Although it measures up to C7, past a certain point (A#3) there is no visual feedback showing the iH measurement progress for each note.
Posted By: Tuner 88 Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/06/21 09:40 PM
Portrait mode works perfectly. Why not just use that?
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/06/21 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Thanks for reporting this. I currently cannot reproduce it. What iPhone or iPad are you using?

The bug was noticed on an iPhone 12 Pro Max. The same bug also occurs on the Inharmonicity screen. The issue doesn't exist on iPad because the display is big enough to accommodate all 88 notes in portrait orientation.

To reproduce: start from the Tuning View in portrait orientation. Use the menu to view Inharmonicity or Tuning Curve. On this particular device, A0-C3 are initially visible. At this point one can swipe to view notes as high as A#3 (Inharmonicity) or G3 (Tuning Curve), but no further. Changing the orientation to landscape displays all 88 notes. Rotating back to portrait shows A0-C3, but one can now swipe to get all the way up to C8.

It's also a problem with "Measure Inharmonicity" if the device remains in portrait the whole time. Although it measures up to C7, past a certain point (A#3) there is no visual feedback showing the iH measurement progress for each note.

Thank you, pianofish, for the detailed description. I can reproduce it now and will investigate it further.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/08/21 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by pianofish
Frank, I noticed a couple more issues. First, if you go to the Tuning Curve view while the app is in portrait mode, only the left half of the tuning curve is visible and it is not possible to scroll right to view the rest of it. If the device is subsequently rotated to landscape and back to portrait, then scrolling works.

Check out version 1.1.2 I have just released. The issue should be fixed.
Posted By: Frank Illenberger Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/10/21 12:15 PM
I have uploaded a test build of the upcoming version 1.2 of pianoscope. If you are already on TestFlight it will offer it to you, otherwise you can join via this link: https://testflight.apple.com/join/qIzcnoY8

If you have already purchased the app store version but have not used a TestFlight build before, you need to perform one of the purchases in the test build. But this will only result in a test transaction and does not charge you any money, as the dialogs will tell you.

New Features:
- Tuning instruments with extra bass keys down to C0 (like the Bösendorfer Imperial 290) is supported.
- The number of moving strobe blocks can be adjusted in the general settings.
- The expiry date of the trial and beta periods are now shown in the tune view header.
- The indicator textual pitch display settings now have the additional option "Always Except For Concert Pitch"

Changes:
- The temperament and range instrument settings are now available in pianoscope standard.

Fixed Issues:
- Swiping on the rows for extra bass and treble stretch in the tuning curve view led to a crash.

If anyone has access to a Bösendorfer with extra bass keys, I would be interested to know if it works in real life. So far I have only tested it with recordings.

Have fun!
Posted By: pyropaul Re: Novel Piano Tuning App - 06/10/21 07:56 PM
Many moons ago Frank asked if someone with an M1 Macbook could try and run pianoscope. Now that it's released into the app store, it's possible to download it.

So I tried it out today and found that it does, indeed work. A couple of small differences due to the way MacOS accesses the filesystem compared to iOS, but it did run. The window size was completely resizeable and could be full-screened too. In-app purchases also worked so this means that anyone without an iOS device but a new M1-based Macbook can use it. The larger screen is also good for use older folks and not having to have a stand for the device is also a plus! No problems reusing tuning files from the iOS version either - saving them to iCloud made it straightforward to get them from the iOS world into the Mac.

Currently, it's only the released (1.1.2 build 646) version that's available, not the 1.2.0 Frank announced above.

Paul.
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