So, how much better is the new ES920 than P515?

like 90000x legit better

What are your priorities in a slab piano?

1.786 (920/515) times better.

lol
In all seriousness though, when it comes to the piano sound and action, both are decent for the price and it comes down to personal preference. There may be some features that push you in one direction or the other, but those will vary from person to person.

I was waiting for this thread to come! Let the battle begin .

For the record, I just bought a P-515 after comparing the ES-8 and P-515 and deciding that they are roughly equally good, while the ES-920 on paper seems to have only minor updates. But eventually the only way to know is to try yourself once the ES-920 appears in stores.

No point in any further discussion till enough people have tried out the ES920 along side the P515.

All the spec chat won't help anyone appreciate the differences between these instruments.

I am waiting for clp 735 or p515 i dont know what do

Regarding the "piano" sounds, if you use mainly headphones or external speakers, I think there is no need to wait for the ES920 to get an idea of how it sounds at default. You can just consider the dozens of video reviews of the ES8. Or even better you can consider the reviews of recent Kawai DP with the HI-XL engine (for example, the CA59 should have the same "improved" samples) to get an even more accurate idea. What I can say is that from the official demos, with headphones, the ES920 sounds like the usual SK-EX digital sound we are used to.

But if you like to fiddle with parameters, then the ES920 could be surprising: the added "Cabinet Resonance", "Hammer Noise" and "Low Volume Balance" options, together with the variations you can do in real-time with the 4-band EQ, can make your customized piano sound very different from what you can achieve on the ES8. And there is an AMP simulaton too, but probably that's less interesting for piano sounds.

Anyway, the P515 is a very good instrument and it continues to be strong even compared with the new ES920 which looks to me just a minor upgrade of the successfull ES8.

IMHO there is no real winner here, because you could find the NWX action better than the RHIII or the other way around. The same thing for the main piano sounds. It's all very subjective. They are both good DPs. Personally I would buy the Yamaha, just because I already have a Kawai DP, so I could add the Yamaha sound timbre to my tools.
For the same reason I would buy a Roland and a Casio too. Unfortunately I don't have enough space in my room (and money in my pocket)...

Hello i am waiting clp 735 for the action, many people say that the acction of p515 is very heavy, but that i am waiting, but if action 735 is worst i will buy p515 , talk something about p515?
I discard kawai for the quality of construction

By all accounts (Yamahas) the 735 has the lighter action of a (yamaha) Baby Grand. Lighter than that of the more expensive models which employ a different action akin to Concert Grands and with a sound system that'd blow your head off.
I made up that last bit.
I also read somewhere that it's lighter than that on the P515, which is light to me. I've had mine almost a year and I'm liking the action more, as it loosens. It's very lively.
Looking at the stuff on the 735, I'd probably go for that but I haven't tried it yet.

By all accounts (Yamahas) the 735 has the lighter action of a (yamaha) Baby Grand. Lighter than that of the more expensive models which employ a different action akin to Concert Grands and with a sound system that'd blow your head off.
I made up that last bit.
I also read somewhere that it's lighter than that on the P515, which is light to me. I've had mine almost a year and I'm liking the action more, as it loosens. It's very lively.
Looking at the stuff on the 735, I'd probably go for that but I haven't tried it yet.

I don't think you can go wrong, here. try the toss of a dice, the flip of a coin approach. Do it several times until you get a clear winner . . .

thanks for answering peter. The seller sent me to ask for the p515, but I told him that when the 735 comes I would like to try it and the one I like the most to take it to me. I get $ 200 more nothing else. For the 745 I have no money!

When the models are available, test them.

Myself, I'm not a fan of the cheap amplification on the lower grade CLP models (or lower /medium priced cabinets in general). Unless you require a cabinet for aesthetic reasons, I'd go for a nicer stage or portable piano with studio monitors if needed.

The cabinet itself is a challenge for designers to overcome in the optimisation of the sound. The cheaper cabinet pianos have low power non bespoke systems, and a portable piano is likely to sound better.

I guess you are right, but I think the 735 has a better action, right? According to many people it is heavier, although I tried the same action on a csp and it was heavy like a boserdonfer there, but heavier than a yamaha upright piano

I think 2 things:

1) whatever cabinet-style DP you buy from the usual main manufacturers, it's very likely it has an action good enough for learning piano and to transition in a future to an acoustic model to get more nuances in your playing;
2) if you have concerns about the heaviness/lightness of an action, then it's better to go to a store and try yourself, instead of asking here;

I listened to some videos of the CLP-735 and I don't know if it's the same engine/samples of the P515 but that CFX sounds very good to me: bright and clean when you press hard on the keys, smooth and nice when you play pianissimo. And the Bosendorfer is lovely. I feel the quality of the new Yamaha samples is much better than that of the old PHI engine Kawai continues to put in their middle-range offerings (ES520/CN29/CN39/etc.). But it's true that currently a Yamaha CLP-735 is much more expensive than a Kawai CN39 (current top "middle-range" cabinet-style DP from Kawai), so it's like the 2 manufacturers (Yamaha and Kawai) don't want to compete too much in the same price-range.

In my country i get clp 735 about 2000$ and p515 1700$, i like 735 but a try it

Here in Europe the P515 is €1444. The CLP735 about €2049, but its price should get lower in the next 6 months (I think something like €1600-1700). IMHO the price of the P515 cannot go lower than that.
If you like cabinet-style DPs more, IMHO the CLP735 is a very good choice, but I think now the prices are too high. With the P515 you cannot go wrong. The ES920 is a good choice too, if you like more that warm sound character of Kawai digital pianos. About the actions, you should try them. Between NWX and RHIII actions I don't know if there is a clear winner...

i get clp 735 1700€ i live in canary island i dont
Buy vat.. if the action turns out to be good buy 735

Has anyone even played the ES920 yet?

I don't know if this was mentioned already, but the ES920 only weighs 37.5 lbs vs 50-52 lbs for the MP7SE or ES8.

P515 is also nearly 50 lbs.

Usually you get coupons on the P-515 (I got mine for 1275 USD).

At a quick glance:

Yamaha P-515:
- top range sound engine (Binaural CFX Grand used in SH2-tier hybrid pianos)
- mid-range Clavinova action (Natural Wood X, previously top range from CLP-575)

Kawai ES920:
- mid range sound module (Kawai CA59 tier)
- bottom range plastic action (Kawai CN29 tier)

Here in Europe P-515 is sold substantially cheaper than ES920.

Kawai's new slab isn't really an answer to Yamaha's offer.

I preferred the SK-EX on the Kawai HI-XL sound engine to any piano on the P-515 hands down. Others may feel differently, but it was not ambiguous for me when I auditioned them.

Near ‘Californee-Way’?

Well, I have a present for you: used P-515 with stand/pedal-board for $800.

Assuming it’s in excellent condition, get it down to $700 and you have yourself a good deal.



P.S.

Triple-check the action for any abnormalities; including but not limited to ‘loud/odd’ sounding notes.

Don’t blame Pete if you end up buying a lemon. It is your responsibility to make sure everything works perfectly fine!



P.S.S.

Sold @Pianomart.

RHIII is not a "bottom range plastic action". Actually it's the top range of the Kawai plastic actions. Their bottom range plastic action is the RHC used in the ES110.

The biggest guff about digital pianos ever. You don't even know the names of keybeds (NWX and RHIII) and emulation technologies (VRM vs Harmonic Imaging XL).

and Binaural samples are just an advertisement trick and nothing related to the sound engine's capabilities.


So the wood sticks inside NWX is going to make it a better action?

Let's see how P-515 isn't better than es-8 even as of today!

ES-8 was introduced 2016, P-515 was intruduced in 2018.

In 2016 ES-8 was beating every single portable digital piano Yamaha had (emulation, better key action and better implementation).

As of writing this post today, ES-8 still offers better emulation of an acoustic piano! It is more detailed. Little things such as hammer release (release velocity) are non-existant in P-515. ES-8 has 88-key's samples. Yamaha never disclouses this informatino and it is very unlikely that all the 88 keys are sampled. 88-key sampling is something unique to Yamaha's premium lines. It never shows up in CLP series.

Action-wise, RHIII has a better hardware/software integration and resembles to an acoustic better. The weight distribution along the key is better than NWX. NWX's escapement is subtle compared to an acoustic piano which is not the case for RHIII.

Sound is completely subjective but Harmonic Imaging XL and samples in ES-8 sounds closer to a Kawai piano than P-515 to a Yamaha piano due to better sampling (if you like Kawai acoustics of course).

That being said, ES-8 was introduced way before P-515! P-515 being intruduced later it still can't out-spec ES-8. Even today!


Cheaper means more affordable means higher sales. It doesn't mean it is better whatsoever.

And there is a reason why P-515 is cheaper!

The "bottom-range" moniker was considering the entire range of actions. All plastic actions are in bottom range, as you find them in bottom range digital pianos like the Kawai CN series. The mid range of Kawai digital pianos (CA) is all fully wooden actions, so no Kawai ES contains a mid range action as matter of fact. And that's simply what my quick assessment was about.

The "advertisement trick" is an extra separate sample recording. That means a current Yamaha digital contains at least three premium concert grand piano samples: Stereo CFX Grand, Binaural CFX Grand, Stereo Bösendorfer Grand. These are from three separate sampling sessions and not recycled older samples, which are available additionally (like C3 Studio Grand).


As a matter of fact it's leaps and bounds ahead of any plastic action. Which is no wonder, it comes from a previously top of the line Clavinova.


Your guesswork is entirely wrong. The P-515 features release velocity. Both in the sound engine and via MIDI. And no CFX digital piano was ever sample-stretched. May I remind you, that a P-515 is essentially a Clavinova CLP-575 slab edition with additional features like the USB audio interface?

The latter is two generations back now, but was a great deal in 2018. If Kawai wants a slab competitive with a P-515 it needs to surpass the ex-premium (now midrange) Clavinova model.

Who said that? Is the wood stick going to make it a better action?


Like I said: Binaural has nothing to do with having a better sound engine. It is not of everyone's interest and these samples are only "partially" decent through headphones. For live performance they sound awkward. They don't sit nice in the mix and no professional will ever record any audio tracks with binaural samples.

Binaural is targeting home users.


Don't get emotional. The wood inside the keys only contribute to quiter keys. Hallow keys amplify finger impacts. The mechanics and the action has nothing to do with having wood inside the keys.

If you want to sound like someone serious and knowledgeable, discuss about the lenght of the keys, the weight distrubtions, the levers etc.



There was a discussion about this issue here and you participated in it pretty much like the way you posted here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2836114/yamaha-p515-note-off-velocity.html

Instead of posting imaginary responses I highly suggest you to use a software like pocketMIDI

pocket midi link

and use to observe the midi signals generated by (potentially your) P-515 when you release the keys.


USB audio interface is only nice if you are cheap and you don't want to spend money on it. I prefer external interface and to me a professional scenario is to have spdif or toslink outputs. I don't care about the audio interface.

An example:

If I buy the best and most expensive an all-in-one scanner, printer fax machine or will it produce the same out put as if I buey the best of these separeately? Nope.



I think owning a Kawai requires a higher levels of understanding of ones needs. If you don't know what you're looking for, P-515 is always a better option.

It's natural to "root" for what you bought, but this level of self-induced confirmation bias is bordering on ridiculous.
They all have their pros and cons.

If you can't see positives AND negatives for each of the "big 3" slabs (the P515, FP90, and now the ES920) you are incapable of objectivity.

The ES 920 is a stage piano. It should not have a wooden action for all kinds of reasons, not least of which is weight, but also resistance to sudden changes in heat, humidity, and other accidents of frequent transportation. I played on a Yamaha console with wooden keys, but didn't notice any practical difference (honestly, I couldn't get past the synthetic metallic tones in the piano samples as rendered by the built-in speakers).

I'm happy with my ES8, but am starting to drool over the light weight of the ES 520 as a gigging instrument (18 lbs lighter than the ES8 is very significant). I don't need the auto accompaniment or USB features for gigs: just a good solid keybed, convincing piano samples, robust internal speakers, and 1/4-inch line outs. But I would love to have it easier to get into and out of my car.

IMHO the CN series is middle-range. CA series is high-range (apart from the CA49 which is a strange hybrid thing: a CA29 with wooden keys, so it has the action of the superior models, but the engine/features of the cheapest DP of the CN series).

That's my classification based on both the action and the piano engine:

low-range DPs (HI engine): ES110, KDP110
middle-range DPs (PHI engine): ES520, CN29, CN39, CA49
high-range DPs (HI-XL engine): ES920, MP7SE, MP11SE, CA59
top-range DPs (SK-EX Rendering engine): CA79, CA99, NOVUS series

It's a slab piano.


For actual stage pianos, they are pretty standard now. The Roland RD-2000, Yamaha CP88 and Kawai MP11SE all have wood in their actions. These trickled down to slabs like Roland FP-90 and Yamaha P-515.


Thankfully as a customer, I'm not obliged to any objectivity. The deal-breaker on the FP-90 (which is the most expensive of the bunch) is the "modeled" sound. I can't stand it.

Funny because I'm one of the ones that likes the modeled sound of Roland. That is why I always say you need to try before you buy

There is no "range" below the CN series, it's the lowest end of Kawai's digital piano offerings, starting with the Kawai CN17 model at below $1000.


The top range is now the Novus (NV) series. Concert Artist (CA) sits right in the middle. It has a lower and a higher tier with two models in each.

Your impression of "pretty standard" is only meaningful to you!

CP88 has the worst action in its class and its the same as NWX without the escapement (X means escapement). All of these have folded action except MP11SE. MP11SE has long keys and its action is totally different. MP7SE is the direct competitor of RD-2000 and has plastic keys (RHIII same as ES-8).


From CLP-575 and P-515 user manual:


It's range is between 0-10 and it is a static value. This is different from the release velocity in ES-8 which triggers the hammer noise. The quicker you release the keys the louder the hammer noise gets. The volume is dynamically set based on the release velocity. This doesn't exist in P-515 and specifically CLP-575.


Sure you're not obliged to any objectivity but sounding like a fool is the direct result of participating in an argument without being objective.

I did in late 2018. I tried almost all Yamaha, Kawai, Roland and Casio digital piano models in one store, including the Novus NV-10.

I have a Casio PX5s for quite a few years and even with the short pivot I love the versatility of the 24lb baby. I've been looking for a new console piano and will go check out the new Yamaha series but I'm in no rush with Covid. If I was replacing my slab I would definitely take a close look at the Yamaha P515.

Peace

The CN17 is just another name of the KDP110. AFAIK they are exactly the same product but with different names in different world areas. I don't know why Kawai does this naming thing... Anyway the KDP110 (CN17 in some countries) is more like the ES110 (which you forgot). More basic piano engine + cheaper action (and cheaper price), so they are a step below the CN29/39/49 series. You cannot place them all toghether, it wouldn't be fair.

The KDP series is only sold in certain price-sensitive markets, the ES110 is a slab. I know you only own a Kawai CN and have to talk yourself into owning a "midrange" digital piano, but you don't, just face it.

The midrange of Kawai starts above 2.000 bucks and features wooden actions, in case of Kawai fully wooden black and white keys.

LOL wasted so many posts here, yet there is not a single peice of information regarding the actual benefits of Yamaha's VRM nor the NWX and this guy still keeps posting like a champ.

If P-515 is a slab form of CLP-575 then its samples are looped

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2371154/Re:_The_DPBSD_Project!.html#Post2371154
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103.html

ES-8/ES920 are not necesserily the best slabs in the market but calling P-515 the best doesn't make sense either. I'm not even sure if we do have the best slab dp and on top of that I don't even like the slab piano concept! I prefer a stage piano and in this department I look at the overal package (entire voice set and hardware) no the brand. Voice-set matters the most.

I don't know if you're right or not. I don't even know whether I care. However, I do know that in many cases, what matters is not only what you say, but also how you say it. "C'est le ton qui fait la musique", as the French (very fittingly) say ("It is the tone that makes the music."). Personal attacks are not so cool, IMHO.

Don't worry about JoeT. The CN pianos are lovely instruments. I'm tempted every time I play 'em; they seem to fit me well probably because my playing is, might as well face it, not midrange . . .

In my classification I did not make distinctions between cabinet-style, stage and digital pianos.OMG, the fact that I own a CN digital piano has nothing to do with my classification. But if you think the CN series is low-range, how would you classify the ES110? Ultra-Low-range? As I said, IMHO, it's not fair to place the ES110 and KDP110/CN17 in the same range of the CN29/39/49. Even their prices are very different.

Classifying a slab piano's action or sound engine as mid-range or top-range based on where the technology sits in a companies console piano portfolio is completely irrelevant to a comparison between the ES920 and Yamaha P-515. All that matters is how the actions and sounds compare directly between the two instruments. Both have folded actions with a similar geometry and similar pivot length. Obviously the materials and implementations are very different. There are fans of both actions in this forum and they exist within the same product class.

I'm less familiar with all of the specific console piano products that have been added to this discussion so I won't add any fuel to that particular fire lol.

My take on the P515 having owned one for almost a year:

I bought it because it fell within my budget and it meets my particular requirement which is to have a digital piano that I can learn notes on, and it won't be too much of a stretch to move between it and a grand piano. I would also like the piano sound to be accurate and adaptable, and I would like it to have enough dynamic range to be an expressive instrument.

Honestly the P515 does this, it's perfectly fine in this context. I'd hate for it to be my only piano and it certainly doesn't replace an acoustic. The action is robust enough to take a punishment - the Rachmaninoff concertos are not really a problem on it. I can play most things I want to on the action, and I just have to forget about any limitations and get on with it. What is its main limitation? Well if i'm being honest it's a little sluggish. Some people interpret this as heavy, but it's not heavy. It's just maybe that it doesn't bounce back quickly enough.

The downside is, the speakers suck. They are alright for monitoring and if I need to record a clip on my phone quickly they're alright for that, but the quality is a bit naff if I'm being honest. The speakers were clearly built in to the price range and the style - it's obvious that Yamaha wanted to stay under a certain price and weight. The sound through headphones is excellent.

A few times you get the odd bit of 'loud note', but it's rare. It's no worse than an unregulated grand but it's a bit frustrating at times. It's rare though, and I find it can be tempered a bit by changing the voicing and touch curve.

I actually would have preferred to buy a Roland, because I have an HP603 in Scotland which I absolutely love practising on - the action is great and the sound can be edited so that many of the idiosyncrasies of using a fully modelled sound engine can be ironed out, but it takes a bit of time. The thing is that in the UK, Yamaha is more expensive than Roland, but in the USA, Roland is more expensive than Yamaha by quite a lot. My HP603 was an end-of-line deal at GBP1399, and that kind of price just isn't going to happen here in America.

I haven't played the Kawai ES-8, but any Kawai digital piano I've played I've really liked. Honestly between the three brands, Yamaha, Roland and Kawai, it's just a matter of preference.

As for the Casio Celviano range, the only thing they've really got going for them is the price, I don't like the sound or the touch, even in the Grand Hybrid range.

That's strange, because the NWX action of the P515 has a big upweight (from what its users usually say) compared to other DPs, so its keys should bounce back faster.That's common with any slab digital piano (and most cabinet-style DPs too under $2500). A piano sound is very complex, so it requires very high quality speakers to reproduce all its big frequency range in a clean and convincing way, much much more than an organ, an electric piano or other synth sounds (which usually sound very good even with low-quality speakers).

I think the only way to make a slab piano sound good on speakers (not headphones) is to use (good quality) external monitor speakers and find their best sounding position in your room.

IMHO the ES920 is a strange hybrid just the other way round..
Once ES920 is out there I will be pretty interested in CA49 vs. ES920 comparison by musicians to learn about which strange hyrid direction makes more sense for them... (even thought the two are from very different families for different purposes).

Do you mean you consider strange the ES920 because it uses the HI-XL engine but has a plastic action rather than a wooden one? Well, consider a Kawai wooden action adds at least 8Kg to the weight of a DP. And Kawai doesn't produce yet an hybrid plastic/wood action like Yamaha does with the NWX action. And the HI-XL engine is not anymore the top piano engine from Kawai, so now it makes even more sense (compared to the previous ES8) they use it in a current middle/high-range DPs.

To me the strange things are more the CA49 (basically a CN29 with wooden action) and the DG30 (PHI engine, plastic action and the usual 20Wx2 speaker system on a DP that would like to look "premium", when the only premium thing I see is its price...).

P.S.:I don't think you will ever see a comparison between a CA49 and an ES920, considering they are very different DPs.

That's strange, because the NWX action of the P515 has a big upweight (from what its users usually say) compared to other DPs, so its keys should bounce back faster.[quote]

That may be the case but it's not as quick as a grand piano. I don't know the reason why.

Maybe it's not a matter of upweight, but of escapement. Acoustic grand pianos have escapements, so when you press a key until the bottom, the hammer is released from the key... So you don't feel its weight until you release the key and depress it again.
On any current digital piano (apart from some hybrid actions), the hammer is "always" connected to the key, so you feel its heaviness at any level of key press. This could make a digital piano keyboard more tiring than an acoustic keyboard, if you play many hours every day.

Exactly.


I understand weight is important factor for those who use their slab piano frequently for gigging... but thatis not me, to be honest.


I agree, CA-49 is the very strange one. Missing HI-XL in a full cabinet with wooden keys...
My experience is that slab with stand sets most typically have some disadvantages in sound via own speakers -- and that is why ES-920 is a bit surprising, too.

Yes, I know the pianos are very very different (in purpose as well) and maybe hence comparison at first sight is not natural.

However CA-49 and ES-920 allow this comparison of what is more important, a better action or a better sound engine? I think the question with respect to better action vs. better sound engine goes far beyond the comparison of the actual models.

That's a good question and my opinion is that they are both important.
But the ES920 action is a "very good" plastic action, so, even if the CA49 has a wooden action, I think I would pick the product with the better piano engine, more piano sounds and more options to customize the piano sound. But considering I don't like the ES920 look and I play with headphones 90% of the time, I would pick the very nice MP7SE instead (which currently has a cheaper price too).

Hey, how do you get those coupons and from which retailer? Thanks.

My $.02 is that a Kawai ES8 and Yamaha P-515 are very comparable in overall quality, but the feel of the actions varies enough that most players will have a very clear preference for one or the other.

Hi ColoRodney,

Sorry to nitpick, but I like to avoid confusion in my answers.


These are stage pianos: they have a lot more buttons, mod wheels, pitch bend, much better MIDI control functionality, no speakers, and hundreds/thousands more sounds (on average).






These are portable pianos: you can take them on stage, but they aren't designed for hauling from venue to venue playing in a band; rather, they are designed for less demanding gigs e.g., weddings, cruise ships, churches, student halls, music colleges etc.






Notice the main differences: aesthetically, stage-pianos don't look like they're built for home use (although the MP7SE is nice to look at IMO, and the CP88 has a nice style too, for a stage piano).

Now, the ES920 is designed to be lighter than the ES8, so better for hauling around in your car to weddings, etc., but it is not designed to be a workhorse for a rock band---the domain of the stage piano..

Kind regards,

Doug.

While all of that is true, I think the only universal distinction between a stage piano and portable piano is whether or not it has on-board speakers.

No, are there stage pianos with onboard speakers. The distinction is in fact pretty simple:

Portable pianos a geared towards amateurs (ES series, P series, FP series)
Stage pianos a geared towards professionals (MP series, CP series, RD series)

This affects availability of furniture stands and music rests, rugged casing, the amount of (professional) connectors on the back, also panel buttons, dials, faders, firmware/software features, programmability and general operation.

PMFJI --

It's not _enough_ better, so that you should trade your almost-new P515 for a new ES920.

I’m a professional musician, and I call my ES8 a stage piano, because I play it on the stage when there isn’t a real piano. And the speakers are quite important.

Both those pianos look great with their respective stands. It's a mouth watering choice these days.

Build quality of stage pianos tends to be higher, and there is currently a sub-trend to put speakers in Stage pianos eg Korg Sv2. I don't consider those to be portable pianos on account of their stage piano core features. So indeed, to me, my distinction stands.

As I said, this is to me completely wrong and confuses matters when comparing stage and portable instruments. It's as much a stage piano as an acoustic Grand piano on a stage is a stage piano.

The formular of components and qualities of portable pianos is basically: a mid range portable version of a home cabinet piano, with or without a wooden bespoke stand with a built in triple pedal. Functionality of the portable piano is low.

Stage pianos are built for band gigging, have advanced MIDI control, better build quality, often hundreds to thousands of sounds, slider control for each parts, live control knobs for effects, hundreds more presets etc etc.

Once you compare top portable and stage pianos, you will indeed know they are different beasts entirely.

I apologize if I’ve said this before: P-515!

When I got on this forum in 2014 I didn't know the difference between the slabs yet and people calling everything "stage piano" (just as non-musicians like to call everything with keys an "e-piano") didn't help me and I was even looking at arrangers and workstations with a question mark over my head. It might be even the same people who now pretend that the ES series without balanced outputs (XLR) is a stage piano, who confused me back then. On top of it where the people advertising pure MIDI controllers on these forums as well.

Thankfully I got it right by accident and acquired a portable piano - something I didn't know existed until then, which had everything I needed to get back into practicing piano.

No worries man. I understand how every now and then you need to introduce yourself to the new members of the forum... of course as a very intelligent member!!!

Having and XLR output is not a parameter of a stage piano. Nord Stage 3, Kawai MP series, and alsmost every single synth I have seen and owend doesn't have XLR outs.

I should also say many instruments on the stage also don't have it. e.g. electric guitars, basses and so on.

...and Professor Chaos (Abdol) strikes again!!!

https://youtu.be/1Ocaztxj87E

It is: You are unlikely to find XLR on a portable piano.

It just doesn't work the other way around.

However Kawai MP11SE series has balanced outputs, Yamaha CP88 has, Roland RD-2000 has. Or in other words: the integrated professional gear intended to be connected directly to the mixer. (Synths you might want to patch somewhere.)

These are meant to be used together with effect pedals and a balanced output doesn't help with that. On microphones OTOH you always have XLR, because there it's real advantage.

But to add to the confusion, I could also start to call my RD-17C-CE an electric guitar, because it features a pickup with an instrument out and hooked up to the right combo I could make sound like one. Nevertheless it's an acoustic guitar, which is intended to be connected an acoustic amplifier and sound like an amplified acoustic guitar. And I'm gigging with it as an acoustic guitarist, so what the audiences hears matches what they see.

And to complete this, Kawai is the first company who introduced the concept of a "Stage Piano" before everyone else (specifically Yamaha!). Yamaha started monkey-see moneky-do just after they saw how successfull MP9000 was. Yamaha is famous for doing it. CP-88 is the latest example of copying other companies.

Here is the article which refers to how Kawai build the first concept of a Stage Piano:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kawai-mp9500#top

Kawai still follows the legacy of MP9000 I believe.

So here is the definition of a Stage Piano by its inventor:




So no XLR, no thousand sounds (of course), great MIDI controller capability. Top notch grand piano souds: Dark, Bright, Mellow which probably comes in 3 sizes: Baby, medium and full concert grand pianos. Top e-piano, Rhodes, Wurlitzers, Clavs and Organs. Having other sounds like pads and strings are nice but I don't really care how realistic they are.

It's good to have balanced outputs but I don't see it as a necessity. There are many instruments that don't have balanced output and there are DI boxes all around the stage which eleminates this need anyway.

That's the most funny theorycrafting I ever heard of, because I remember stage pianos already existing in 1997.

They weren't digital in the beginning during the 1970s and larger than today's slabs, yet much smaller than an acoustic grand or upright piano - which made them tada stage pianos. Here, have a Yamaha CP-30 from 1976:

.

It's always tempting to point out the exception even though it really doesn't prove any point whatsoever. But here we go:



Or maybe it's a stage piano. With built-in speakers. And optional furniture stand and triple pedal bar.

(I don't really care about the classification.)

I think we can safely say, that definition is dated, just as the first PC running MS DOS wouldn't define a modern PC.

The stage piano definition evolved naturally due to more complex tech under the influence of competition. This has occurred to such an extent, such that, a market has opened up for a modern slab piano combining a desire for an instrument with nicer aesthetics for the home with the simplicity of the original Kawai concept: the portable piano.

I think of the main difference between stage and portable is one of complexity over simplicity, where the stage piano gives more sliders, knobs and presets plus on the whole more sounds, parts, MIDI control and other such gadgets. Now we could even argue that there are clear sub-markets opening up eg between
Non menu driven simpler stage piano UI's : Nord Grand/ Yamaha CP88/Korg Sv2 vs more menu driven function heavy all in one boards eg Rd2000, MP7SE, Dexibel S9 Pro, Kurzweil Forte

I've no doubt that this genre 'stage piano' will continue to evolve as tech gets more advanced. Perhaps the boundaries between workstations, Synths and stage pianos will blur over time.

We didn't have Stage Pianos in the 70s'. Spend some time and read the link. The author of that link knows more than you.

You are mixing an instrument Yamaha called it an "electric piano" from 70's. Stage Piano is a new concept from late 90's when technology allowed us to have main instruments used in band performances in a compact digital box, that actually sounded acceptable and decent.

So you probably categorize Mellotron as a stage piano too!

What makes the Roland RD series -- starting in 1986 or so -- not "stage pianos"?

I don't think so. The main instruments that defined the Stage Piano concept are timeless. The need for the bread and butter instruments on the stage will not evolve with time.

First of all Nord Stage isn't a simple instrument. 2nd, MP series doesn't offer you a deep interface to edit your voices. The most complex one is just for Piano. The rest are very basic. Among all of these, CP-88 is the only instrument which is a step backwards.

There is also an overlap between Stage Pianos and syths. e.g. Kronos is very versatile when it comes to important stage sounds.

That's easy: It's neither a stage piano nor a portable piano. It's a toy made by this company and re-badged by M-Audio: https://www.medeli.com.hk/4200

The later more compact electric pianos were clearly intended to replace the acoustic piano on stage. That's why the CP-30 on the picture sits nicely in its flight case.

No, they didn't sound like acoustic pianos, but nobody cared. Just as nobody cared that solid wood electric guitars didn't sound like acoustic ones, but provided much more gain thanks to no feedback. In the end these "limitations" created the unique sound of its era and completely new genres.

Wouldn't have happened if we had the perfect "digital box", that actually sounded "acceptable and decent" right from the start.

Why didn't you buy CP-30? CP-30 is an analog instrument.

Sound is very important and it matters the most. I'd highly suggest you to replace your p-515 with a CP-30 and carry that around and try to find a band to jam and play with them. Yamaha's best CP series

You just answered it yourself. It happened, Kawai was the first to do it digitally. I don't see anything wrong with it?!

My information is the collection of articles from soundandsound and wikipedia. If you disagree, you can contact Kawai, soundonsound or edit wikipedia articles and let them know that they are wrong.

If they changed their articles, I will also change my definition.

That being said, I don't see much information in your posts regarding the topic.

Where is "stage piano" defined as "doing it digitally"?

I had read about RD-1000 before. I don't remember if it was bundled with anything other than piano and I never had a chance to see one in person.


I'm refering to what is needed on the stage today. The existance of bread and butter voices. Regarding what Kawai is doing, I can still say Organs, better piano sounds, better FM sounds, better effects and ... needs to be improved.

Not all professional musicians are pop, rock, or jazz musicians.

According to Wikipedia's "Stage piano" article the MP7 was Kawai's first stage piano.

It's like somebody who wrote that had never heard of earlier MP models.

So we can ignore Wikipedia as an authority on this topic.

Vintage stage pianos were stage pianos even if they are not up to what is needed on the stage today.

The Ford Model T also was a car.

The 60's black and white TV set also was a TV set.

Obsolescence doesn't change that.

Okay guys help me out! *p515 owners!!!


I'm in Australia and ES920 is already out and in stock - I could go and buy one right now.

I have tried both ES920 and P515, and I liked ES920 better because I found the upper high keys on P515 was so heavy and it was almost impossible to play pppp compared to other upright/grand pianos (personal opinion).

I don't really care too much for the sound or other functions as long as the keybed is good and can last me a long time without having a buyer's remorse or having to deal with the dealer over the warranty etc. I KNOW p515 has natural woods, but I just found ES920 better overall.


Root my of Concern: I had DGX640 for three years in 2015 and I freakking hated it because few keys developed clicking, clunking noise. I tried to fix it, but the dealer couldn't do anything about it.

My QUESTION: I found other forums complaining about Kawai's clicking, clunking noise and I'm hesitant to get ES920 just because of this issue. SO, to anyone with NWX, does P515 develop clicking noise over time as well?

I'm not going to practice classical pieces on DPs (the sound is... just not there). It's mostly for composition/chord/harmonising practices. But I want a decent keybed that can last long with no worries.

No issues reported so far on the ES920 action. Apparently, changes were designed in to fix earlier issues, so there should be no need to have a tech fix issues going forward.

Also, there is the MP11SE if you want a longer non folded action.

IMO, too early to draw any conclusion. Anyway, fingers crossed.

Per Kawai America, the key switch reliability issue was addressed in late 2018 in the MP7SE and the Nord Grand has the fixed version of the RHIII as well. I would not personally be concerned with the ES920, but any product certainly can turn out to have issues.

I've had my 515 for a year, almost. No issues, but I'd accept a bit o' key wear/noise over the years. I'd hazard a guess and say few if any DPs do not display this.
I'd also suggest DPs are still much quieter than an acoustic keyboard, but it might be hard to verify that with the sound of it anyway.
I've found the keys on my 515 delighfully light and agile. Maybe my old fingers have developed more muscle . . . there's a 920 in my local shop anyway, so I hope to get in there shortly.

So, i was really debating about selling my p515, for es920.

I have had the p515 for a couple years, but honestly, i'm not sure anymore.

The CFX sound on the p515, is very unique, very romantic , i'm not sure i can part with it..lol. Music like final fantasy, debussy, etc. it sounds amazing on the p515

SO for the purposes of this thread, they are both great, and best out there, can't go wrong either.

The es920, has a very conventional piano sound, albiet a very good one. es920 SK Concert Grand sounds how you expect a piano to sound, but p515, is just unique, similar to their acoustic counter parts.

I would say , if you like the c bechstein type of sound, you would prefer the CFX, if you like the steinway type of sound, you would like the es920's sk concert grand.

Uh, what?
C. Bechstein grands do not sound anything like a CFX Yamaha. I have played several of both, expertly prepared.
Also, a Steinway D (from either factory) and a SK-EX Kawai do not sound or behave the same, either.
I'm not faulting you for liking what you like (the p515 is a good piano and a very good value), but the extrapolations you're making are just weird.

I'm not saying they sound alike, but I'm just going by tone type

The demos of the ES920 on youtube sound amazing; so I go ahead and order one (white). They just got "in stock" in the US last couple days. I don't have any doubt about sound and action about the ES920, only hope it will last at least 7 years.

there's no reason it won't last 7 years :
I had my MP11 for 6 years and gigged over than 70 times with it : it was still like new action wise when I sold it (but not aesthetically)

Wooden is more durable than plastic my friend.

Every termite in the world would disagree with you, as would I.

I am soooo enjoying my es920 after so many years without a piano.

in France there also is "la mérule", this mushroom eats all the wood in the house and comptletely destroys the interior

I've tried the CA49, CN29 and ES920 yesterday.

With headphones, CA49 and CN29 sounded identical. I expected the ES920 to sound better, and it dit, but only marginaly : the end of the notes was a little more natural to my ears. Of course, there are other differences : more sounds, more effects, and so on.

On the speakers, CA49 and ES920 sounded in a similar way. The ES920 had a clearer sound, as it comes directly from the speakers to the ears, whereas the CA49 had a more diffuse sound (more like a real piano), as it came indirectly to the ears.
Both had a much better sound than the CN29 : much more bass and more details in the highs.

As far as the action is concerned, I'm not competent enough to say if the CA49 is worth the extra money. I found both actions (RH-III and GFC) very good and good enough for my level.

Hum, I wanted to complete my post, but I can't edit it anymore ...

So :

I've tried the CA49, CN29 and ES920 yesterday.

With headphones, CA49 and CN29 sounded identical. I expected the ES920 to sound better, and it dit, but only marginaly : the end of the notes was a little more natural to my ears. Of course, there are other differences : more sounds, more effects, and so on.

On the speakers, CA49 and ES920 sounded in a similar way, with a well ballanced sound.
The ES920 had a bit clearer sound, as it comes directly from the speakers to the ears, whereas the CA49 had a more diffuse sound (more like a real piano), as it came indirectly to the ears.
Both had a much better sound than the CN29 : more bass and more details in the highs.

As far as the action is concerned, I'm not competent enough to say if the CA49 is worth the extra money. I found both actions (RH-III and GFC) very good and good enough for my level.

I also tested the P-515 two month ago, and liked it much. I'm not able to say if I like the ES920 more or less, as I did'nt test them at the same time. But compared to the ES920, the P-515 lacks some usefull features I think, like sliders for EQ and registration, and I think the sound editing possibilities are more limited. It's also heavier ...

Between the two, I would buy the ES920.

> Both had a much better sound than the CN29 : much more bass and more details in the highs.

The CN39 should compare to the ES920 better feature-wise (except the sound engine); it has better speakers than the CN29. Nice to hear that the ES920 sounds better; the ES8 speakers didn't sound as good as the CN29. Mind with down-firing speakers the carpet may matter

How is the key action of the ES920 compared to CN29, do they feel the same? The RHIII in the ES8 seemed generally similar to the CN29/39 but awkwardly bouncy on key return.

I did'nt notice any difference.

I first tried the cn29, and immediately noticed that the key return was bouncy.
As I'm not used to play the piano (I come from the arranger world), I checked the key return on the CA49 and it was the same.
Then on the ES920 : no difference.

So, I suppose it's quite normal ...

There was a CSP-150 at the store and I quickliy tried it too.
No bounce at all (it returned directly to the original position) and I found the action harder than on the CN29, what I did'nt like.
Also, I didn't like much the sound on speakers : too much mids, not enough bass (for the price) to my taste.
I did'nt try it on headphones, because I already know that the CFX and Bösendorfer are very good, as I tried a CLP-745 a few weeks ago.

I don't know quite why folk like all this extra bass. It's not found on most acoustics and can muddy the sound so easily. The CN 27 was one I particularly liked; the 37 less so. But that's me. Some of the cheaper models don't have a decent sized music stand which is terrible. One has to have a big music stand.

I've just bought the ES920.
When I went to the store, I tried it and the CA49 one last time. My first impression was wrong : the CA49 has deeper bass and a more natural sound overall.
This made me hesitate but ... I bought the ES920 because the CA49 lacks some features, which are necessary to me.

Since I have bought it, I have tried it more intensely on speakers and headphones (AKG K702).
The sound on headphones is perfectly balanced, but it is not the case at all on speakers.
In order to be sure, I played all the notes one by one with an organ sound, without effects, and with fixed velocity.
On headphones : all the notes sounded with the same volume.
On speakers : the low notes were weak and the mid and high notes were too loud.
Same test and same conclusion with a piano sound, with fixed velocity.

So, I've corrected the sound on speaker by defining a "user-EQ" :
- Low level : + 5 dB
- Mid low freq : 280 Hz
- Mid low level : -5 dB
- Mid high freq : unchanged
- Mid high level : -5 dB
- high level : -5 dB

Now, I have nearly the same sound on speakers and on headphones.

I can't remember where, I read a paper which discussed using bass to jiggle (resonate) the lower body to produce a pleasurable response.

In theory, it's similar to sitting in a vibrating massage chair.

I have now tried both, first ordering ES920 and then the P515. The sound is more clear with ES920, and I do prefer its sound. The high octaves are amazing. The speakers are perhaps a little bit better on ES920 as well. I did however notice quite a bit of chassi shaking on low notes. This was also prevalent on the P-515 but not as much.

Appearence wise, the ES920 is better looking to me. The P515 user panel looks a little "rough around the edges" to me. But the P-515 does feel more sturdy, on the expense of being more heavy.

You need more force to push down the Yamaha action, which to me makes fine-grained control more difficult compared to the ES920. The let-off is also way more noticible on the ES920. I think you can get used to both, but I found the ES920 action a bit better.

To me, the ES920 is in many ways a better digital piano. However, in the end i sent the ES920 back and settled for the P515 pretty much for one single reason - the key noise.

The noise level itself is not that bad. But what is bad is the high-frequency noise. Everytime i pressed a key down, there was a kind of"scratching noise" during the down-motion. Even with headphones i could still hear it. This was true for every key, so I think it's per design. While Yamaha might actually be a bit louder than the ES920, there is no high-piched sound. Yamaha probably utilizes a lower-resistance material combined with lubricants to remove the noise, which to me is very prevalant in the ES920. In the end i found it unbearable and had to return it.

Except for the above mentioned noise on the ES920, especially the F-key on most octaves had another kind of scratching noise which was even more prevalant. I could even feel the scratching with my fingers when playing. Some of this noise got a bit better by "massaging" the key. But for some keys, this scratching didn't disappear. I don't think this noise is per design and was quite disappointed that this passed the factory's quality control. On the P-515 all keys felt smooth and were without this type of noise.

To summarize, i think the ES920 is better in most ways except for the high-frequency key noise which for me was reason enough to return it.

Personally I would never choose a DP based "only" on the noise of the keys, unless this noise was "really" annoying when playing.

Normally, the RHIII action doesn't have high-pitched scratchy noises during key press, so I think yours was just an unfortunate case.

It's probably true that the P515 action is a little less noisy (maybe the wooden core inside the white keys made the trick), but what is more important to me is the feeling of the action and the connection with the sound. I'm not saying that the P515 action is worse than that in the ES920... I'm just saying that for pianistic usage there are many other parameters that should be considered in the choice of a digital instrument, such as (not in order of importance):

- sound quality of the piano tones and resonances, with and without right pedal pressed;
- dynamic range (not just in sound volume) allowed by the piano engine and by the action;
- smoothness in going from ppp to fff (no sudden jumps in the piano timbre!);
- how difficult it is to play pianissimo consistently;
- how difficult it is to play near the fallboard;
- how difficult it is to play fast a repeated note;
- pianistic feeling of the action and connection with the sound.

Then there are some aspects that could be VERY important for some people "or" almost totally insignificant for other people, like:

- power and/or quality of the internal speakers (maybe you always play with headphones);
- level of noise when pressing and/or release the keys;
- aesthetics of the chassis;
- sturdiness of the chassis;
- weight of the instrument;
- connectivity options (Line-In, Line-Out, USB, Midi, Jack, Bluetooth, ...)
- software support (apps for tablet, computer, etc.)
- etc. etc. ...

IMHO I think the noise of the keys in the RHIII action is not the best of all, but it is perfectly acceptable.

I don't think it's a dealbreaker for everyone, but I just didn't like the sound. Scratch your finger nails on course plastic, that's how it sounds when you push a button down. I'm sure I might be a bit oversensitive in this regards, but i've realized silent keys are important to me. In most other aspects, i did prefer the ES920.

Hi guys, quick question: why do you think that the es920 and the p515 cost about the same, at least here in Europe, considering that the Yamaha is using better materials (some wood in the keys, some metals in the case) and the Kawai just came out to the market? I mean, I would expect the Yamaha to be a little more expensive because of the extra costs on the materials but, at the same time, its cost may have been decreased since it came out.

By the way, after reading many reviews, I am not sure if there is a clear winner here. I am more interested in the keybed action itself, and that extra layer of wood in the p515 might give a more realistic feeling (easthetically, the keys look very good), but the es920 might have an overall better action (the escapement bump could be an extra feature which may add value to its keybed).

Sounds like you are trying to justify your ES920 purchase, after not trying either action for yourself!

Alfred, I believe wood on a DP is overrated. So, if it is because of the wood alone, I do not think it will make a big (if any) difference. Other than the aestethics, I really doubt it does make a difference in feel and touch. Of course, others may disagree and I cannot say they are wrong either (it is a matter of perception).

I would not buy Kawai again, mostly because the issues I had (and I still have) with my ES8 (look for posts of mine on it). Allegedly Kawai has fixed it (but I think I have already read complaints about clicks), but apparently there are other satisfied users of ES8, MP7 etc.

Hi, while it’s true that I haven’t tried any of the mechanics (it’s just complicated these days in my area, and the es920 is still hard to find in shops), I am not trying to justify it, I just have some legit doubts because I also believe that the p515 is a very nice DP, based on countless reviews and videos I’ve seen.

It seems that both have pros and cons. I also would like to own a Kawai instrument, since I still own a Yamaha p90, also owned a dx7II in the past.
Either choice would have been very good, I am just a bit puzzled about which one would have been the better or, at least, the better one for me. I am still waiting for my es920 to arrive.

Thanks for your feedback. If by "clicks", you mean the noise the keys make in brand new models, that is something I am not too worried about, since I found it bearable and somehow even pleasing when I tested the ES110. If you mean an issue they may be developing over time, that's an other story. So far, I did not find any person complaining about keys becoming noisy on the latest Kawai DPs but, sure, they have just been released...

If I may humbly disagree, wood is most certainly noticeable! IMHO!

Hi, could you please explain what is the advantage of wooden keys? Here, we are discussing about wooden coated keys, not 100% wooden keys, which I would consider a luxury in a DP.

Does the impact of the finger on the keys become less noticeable in terms of noise, or is about the texture or it is just a pure aesthetical reason, which also influences the overall perceived quality of the instrument?

Personally, I was fine with the plastic keys in my p90, the noise when the finger hit the keyboard seems to be minimal, I cannot hear that hollow sounding piece of plastic that somebody claims on plastic keys.

I’m not sure that the Yamaha wooden keys use a ‘coating’ of wood like perhaps the Rolands (side wooden panels).

The Yamaha wooden key is mostly a solid piece of wood with a thin plastic center. Some around here disagree that this should be considered a ‘solid piece of wood’, but that’s not so important. What’s more important is that the Yamaha wooden keys do feel different and more substantial than their plastic counterparts to me.

Yes, there’s also the cosmetic aspect that is very satisfying to me.

Some claim that they feel no difference between the wooden and plastic keys, and that’s just their opinion/perception, but to me there is a noticeable difference.

I do believe wood makes a difference - I can feel an 'instability' when I hit keys hard sometimes and the plastic reacts/sounds in a perceivable way. The wood remains solid. Just my experience.

I don't think wooden keys are the holy grail. The P515 and the N1X both have wooden keys, but the N1X feels quite different and much better to me. And the plastic keys of the FP90 and the CN39 feel closer to N1X than the P515.
I know certain entry Yamaha acoustic upright models (B) have a "crusty" response similar to the P515 and some P/CLP models.

You couldn’t be farther from the truth, IMHO, saying that the FP90 and CN39 feel closer to the N1X than the P-515.

And no one said that wooden keys are ‘the holy grail’. Yes, there is an element of personal perception as to whether plastic feels/plays exactly the same as wood, but my humble opinion/perception is that wooden keys do feel/play (in terms of weight distribution) better than plastic keys.

Review of Kawai ES920 vs. Yamaha P-515

I am hoping that I can add some comments of interest to those looking at these two keyboards. I’ve had the pleasure of owning both of these for a couple of months now, going back and forth, side to side, and am about to keep the K and sell the Y. I’ll share why that is.

First, let me say that if I had no contact with the Kawai and only had the Yamaha I would be very happy with it. It’s a great keyboard. But here are some differences that were pertinent to me:

On the plus side for the Yamaha, it definitely has a better build quality than the Kawai. The idea that the K is “lighter and more portable” is simply a consolation prize. Even the music rest (though they look similar) is beefier with the Y. I don’t expect the K to fall apart, but it definitely seems like a cheaper build quality. (But it is lighter.)

Sound: here, a mixed bag. Both have great samples, but… The Y has a much stronger bottom end than the K, which seems kind of wimpy at the bottom. When you bang a note at the bottom of the Y, you have some real muscle behind it. That’s true for both internal speakers and headphones, and it’s a shame because that’s pretty important to me. I’ve kind of solved it by adding an external subwoofer to the K. But except for the bottom end the Yamaha, to me, sounds very trebly overall and ‘too busy’ with the samples. The basic piano is what in most keyboards might be described as ‘Bright Piano’, and they have an even brighter one on top of that! In fact, all of the Yamaha sounds seem too trebly and bright to me. The organs, in particular, might even be described as ‘shrill’. (Except the great church organs).


The Yamaha seems to have better speakers, but it’s hard to tell because beefier low end may just make it seem that way. The K to me sounds a bit more synthetic through the speakers. Both are certainly adequate for playing at home. But again, the K has a weaker low end.

The Kawai, on the other hand, (other than the wimpy lower end) has a sound that might be described as understated, simpler, and yet accurate and even perhaps elegant. I find it very pleasing and suitable for a wide variety of music. James has spoken about the stellar top end. Overall it’s more straightforward, clear, and less ‘busy’ in the samples, more workman-like in a good way.

The action. One of the biggest sources of controversy. As everyone points out, it’s personal preference. First, let me say that IMHO the wood keys of the Y and the ‘escapement’ mechanism of the K are both basically gimmicks to get people interested. What really counts is how things feel when you play. The Y IS ‘heavier’, although I wouldn’t really call it stiff as some keyboards are (other Yamahas!). It’s hard to describe. Perhaps classically trained pianists might prefer it. Other people have pointed out that a heavier action might help ‘train’ or exercise the hand so that ‘real’ pianos might be easier to play. Maybe that’s a selling point, I don’t know.

The K’s action is described by some as ‘liquid-like,’ and another review somewhere else described it as being ‘like butter.’ It’s lighter and faster, but perhaps more compatible with the modern world of keyboards rather than just pianos. That is, many people today describe themselves as keyboard players rather than pianists, and this acknowledges the wide variety of keyboards out there, and the wide varieties of their actions. You have pianos, synthesizers, Eps, clavs, harpsichords, organs, etc, etc all with someone’s view of how the keyboard should feel. The K feels to me like it’s friendly with those people who play any of these, except organ of course. I play very little classical, but mostly rock, blues, jazz, etc. and the keyboard to me feels ‘like butter.’ It’s fast and flowing. I don’t know. Perhaps my fingers will lose muscle tone. But it’s very similar to my gigging keyboards, which I won’t name to avoid confusing things further. It’s a pleasure to play. The key noise to me is not an issue. Pianos themselves are often a bit noisy, and for electronics… if you want to hear key noise go play a Fatar action (Nord,etc). They make the Kawai look like a cotton swab playing on a mattress.

Extra sounds: The Yamaha shines on its church organs and on a wonderful pad called ‘Dark Pad.’ Other than that, I prefer the Kawai for almost every other extra sound. That is important to me, because I keep my gigging keyboard in a case ready to go, and use my home keyboard to practice songs which feature various types of keyboards. I really can’t even play the Yamaha organs because they seem so shrill they hurt my ears. The Y does, on the other hand, have an accessible full GM set of sounds, but the vast majority are of a quality that most people wouldn’t be interested in playing.

The Kawai rhythm section is definitely better and more fun than the Yamaha, with a lot of really cool funky things to play along to.

Two other points for the Kawai: the Kawai features a well-designed 4-band EQ right on the board, which I immediately found helpful. The sounds come out different live vs. headphones, and these sliders help me adjust for that. They might also help anyone with hearing spectrum issues, etc. I think that this is a very important addition, and found myself wishing for it in the Yamaha when confronted with what I perceived as an overly bright sound in general (except the excellent Bosendorfer, but that has limited applications.)

The other thing is, both keyboards allow you to tweak all sorts of parameters of the piano sound, but only one allows you to save your work for future reference on the board. That’s Kawai, which has 28 Registration slots that can be crafted and saved to be immediately called up. Amazingly, the Yamaha has no provision for this, and with a couple of minor exceptions, you pretty much have to start over each time you want to work on the piano sound and then lose it when you turn the piano off. I find that pretty incredible.

But the main reason that I chose the Kawai is this: after going back and forth for a couple of months, I found that I just felt more creative on the K. I like to improvise, and I felt that the K ‘had my back’ more as I took chances experimenting. Kind of a subtle, intuitive thing. That was partly because of the lighter, quicker action, but also because of the simpler and cleaner samples that didn’t get in the way of each other as I experimented. Each note stood clearly on its own, in a humble but attractive way. I found myself just wanting to play and improvise more with the Kawai.

But they’re both great keyboards, I don’t want to ‘dis’ the Yamaha because I enjoyed it as well (especially the lower end), and again, it comes down to personal preference. There are PLENTY of people who prefer the Yamaha. You can’t go wrong with either.

It's great when you find a piano you hit off with. In guess Yamah actions will be a tad heavier; their acoustics are too. Comparing their upright basics; the Kawai gives you Millenium III or something. Not a great long pivot, but it feels much better than Yamaha's equivalent. and so do the entry Grands (5 footers).
Since buying my 515 I never use the native sounds. I quite like the Bosendorfer derivatives (warm grand and Jazz) which I'd use for everything. But it never lasts more than a few hours. Honestly, the bass is overwhelmingly stupid. But through its speakers at least the onboard sounds aren't bassy.
I'd been considering changing myself for a 920 or a CN39, but the action is to my liking on the Yamaha, as it is on the Kawai.
Not worth changing unless there's a decent space between the two . . .but who knows? Most stuff is in short supply right now.

Hello theadman95, welcome to the forum, and thank you for sharing your thoughts on these two instruments.


This!

Cheers,
James
x

Hello theadman95, thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Three notes:
The P-515 also has a built-in equalizer, it has 3-bands Bass / Mid / High and is called up using the key combination: Double-click "Sound Boost / EQ" + User key "Right arrow" or via the SmartPianist app. I use it to weaken the bass and reduce the mids, which sound a bit nasal to my ears.
As far as the saving of different sound settings is concerned, I don't know whether the app enables this, I think I've read it ... But what is definitely possible is to change the factory settings, with the last settings when the device is switched off deleted and reset to default values ​​when switched on. With a key combination in the system menu under Backup, this can be toggled so that the last settings are not lost, but remain saved and are then automatically reloaded when you restart.
The SmartPianist app has a remarkable special ability for creative play: it can generate a lead sheet for any loaded song in your own music library, from whose chords you can then improvise an accompaniment. That works quite well, the harmonies mostly fit and I don't think you can get something like this for free anywhere else at the moment ...

At this price point you're not getting a bad instrument either way. Consider this: If you're gigging, jamming or taking the DP out of your house then the ES 920 is 100% the way to go due to:

1) much lighter weight
2) slightly better, clearer speakers and DSP chips.
3) built in EQ (actually super handy in tweaking different spaces you're playing in, or just use artistically for sound design)
4) more variety on the Acoustic Piano and Electric Piano sound categories (however sound "quality" is always subjective at this price level)

For these reasons I own an ES920 and I did have an actual experience with a 515 before I returned it so I'm not talking out of nowhere.

However, if the instrument is strictly for home use, both instruments will serve you just as well. In fact, if looks are as important as function for you as an artist and for your home, then you might consider the 515 to be superior due to a heavier constuction, faux wood line on the front, less plastic (case material doesn't have any effect on the digitally sampled sound quality though).

For some time before the purchase I was really insisting on "wooden keys" but I figured you can only find them in heavier instruments such as MP-11, thus a real piano is always the better pick for that purpose and $ amount anyway! The p515 has classy wooden white keys but since they feel the same as the plastic black keys (and so they should!) then what's the purpose of putting some wood only on the white ones? undoubtedly a dubious choice by Yamaha.

That all being said, whoever owns a 515 don't despair it's a very fine instrument!

Skill over gear any day of the week... instead of GAS, SASS (Skill acquisition syndrome with an extra 'S' for good measure)

I am the happy owner of a Kaway ES920, but I finally had the opportunity to test both side to side this morning.

Yamaha P515: keybed is quite hard, compared to the Kawai, and I noticed I was missing some of the keys when doing scales, since I was not used to that kind of pressure. However, in general I really like how the keybed feels, that extra strenght required is spot on and not an issue if you get used to it, though I believe is not the general standard for a piano (as far as my experience goes).
From an aesthetic point of view, the P515 wins. I also loved the wood on the front panel, nice touch. The black keys texture feels like if they are made of wood, while the white keys are smoother in texture and slightly yellow-ish, meaning that they do not look plastic white, thus they are a pleasure to watch.
As for the key noise: they are actually not that silent, as somebody claims. If you press any key, the noise it makes is quite high-pitched compared to the Kawai, which keys generate a deeper thud when pressed. A bit more silent in comparison, but definitely not totally quiet to my ears.
Sounds: hard to tell for the piano sound, probably my preference goes to the Kawai. But for the other sounds, generally the Yamaha P515 seems like a superior instrument.

Kawai ES920: bought in February, I do not regret my purchase, since it is an amazing DP. The keybed feels more plasticky compared to the P515, but is lighter and smoother to play in comparison.
I had the impression that the keys could be go lower than the P515 keys, which is a good thing, but I did not focus on this detail that much, so take my impression with a grain of salt.
I have already written my review of the ES920 in some previous topic, so I won't add anything else here.

In conclusion: they are both fine instruments, either case is not money wasted. Probably a hybrid between the two keybeds would be the ideal one, taking the texture of the P515, but getting rid of the stiffness of its keys and replacing it with the smoothness of the ES920.

Hi to everybody, new to the forum. Owner of a Chinese baby grand (Kieffer) and a Roland FA 08.

Living in northern Italy, just checked P515 and ES 920 side to side.

I have to say that if I would have tried only the Yamaha, I would have been probably very satisfied of it: solid action, very well built, good samples and loud internal speakers.

But it took me only 10 seconds of playing the Kawai to became aware of a quite evident gap between the two instrument.

1) The clarity and definition of the acoustic piano sound: it could be the samples, it could be the Onkyo ampli and speakers, but the ES 920 comes out pretty much clearer and defined, while the Yamaha has a sort of “muddy” and bombastic overall sound. On the other hand, the Yamaha sound seems a little more deep.

2) the middle range (in Italy we call it “l’ottava che canta”, the singing octave), which is the most difficult to emulate for a DP; while the P515 still has a little of “nasal-plastic-metallic” nuance in this range, the EP 920 is the only hardware DP which comes close to the “liquid” sonority of some good VST.

3) the action: I have to say that, being a downtown jazz player, I am used to the worst heavy and destroyed upright piano keybeds, and it should be clear that the Yamaha wooden action is indeed very good an perfectly playable, but the Kawai’s one is quicker and more responsive. Both the actions are good, but the keybed-engine interaction (good for the P515) is exceptional for the ES 920.

3) UI: both presents great room for improvement: in the third millennium, it is ridiculous that a product in this price range isn’t equipped with a reasonably big and detailed colour display, with a more streamlined menus flow. Having said that, the presence of a physical four band graphic equaliser is a big plus for the Kawai. The fact that the Yamaha doesn’t allow to save the tweakings made with the virtual technician is really hard to understand.

4) other sounds: mixed bag, good the EPs, bad the organs (except maybe the Yamaha’ full registration church organ), inexcusable the absence of a GM/XG set on the Kawai.

5) connections: I will never understand why Kawai decided not to equip the ES 920 with an onboard interface and audio over USB. Big fail!

6) song registration: Yamaha offers by far more features, even if I do not think that in 2021 someone is still bothering to work with an onboard 16 tracks sequencer… anyway, the Kawai seems very limited in this area.

7) rhythms: not tested.

Global evaluation: if you look for a great sounding middle range slab, Kawai could be your best option. If you need an instrument that can be easily connected with a daw or some vst, maybe Yamaha would be the right one.

Other interesting thing: Yamaha audio recording capabilities seems to allow time stretching and pitch modification, as well as line in (and Bluetooth in) recording, but the overdubbing capability is unclear to me.

In the other hand, Kawai allows overdubbing (not sure if it is not destructive) but no time stretching or pitch modification. Also, it is unclear if line in recording is allowed: the manual says no, while the specs on the website says yes.

Hi, thanks for the interesting review, over time I am getting more and more convinced about picking the ES920 over the P515, with the Kawai being a more recent instrument as well, which is an obvious strong advantage by itself.

On the big colour display: I really don't like it, it's PROBABLY distracting (when I do practice on my DP I don't need to look at anything else besides keys and scores), too bright and visible, especially on the night-time. It ruins the aesthetic of the instrument, by giving it that keyboard/synthesizer look.

it's reasonable to say that people who often buy DPs are piano player, who purchase DPs to replace an actual acoustic piano for whatever reason (night practicing, portability for gigs, lower costs, secondary piano etc.), thus I believe most of them want to have an instrument which kind of reminds its acoustic counterparts.

Personally, I like much more the P515 look, also because on the ES920 they used those futuristic blue LEDs, rather than more old-fashioned ane eye-soothing red LEDs.

There is, in my humble opinion, another element to consider when comparing two products: what are the specific needs ad expectations of the customer?

For example, John is willing to buy a DP to study classical music at home, Frank is willing to buy a DP to be used also in jazz gigs and Mary needs a DP to make recordings of pop music.

So, it could be very difficult to say “which one is the better DP”…

Yes, I think you are right. Personally I am more into soundtracks, pop music, rather than classical. So the Kawai probably works better in my specific case.

I am currently testing many DPs (my instruments have been stolen by my ex-girlfriend) and I am quite disappointed: each brand has something important, but lacks something else which is also important.

ES 920, P515, RD88 (I am searching if a store nearby has the FP90x to test)…

All the other instruments have a much better connections and recording implementation (audio over USB, internal sequencer etc), but they don’t have an acceptable sound, especially in the middle range.

Very difficult decision.

I sold my P515 and got the ES920 a few days ago. I can’t believe how nice the keys feel. I know there are people who like the P515 action but it just wasn’t for me and the ES920 feels closer to the acoustic that I use during my lessons. The sound also seems better through my headphones.

Yeah, basically my biggest gripe with both ES920 and P515 is the lack of sound variety. The FP-90 does a much better job at that for example having like ~300 tones but still they are not top and you are stuck with them basically. Personally I use an acoustic piano sound 99% when I gig (just due the nature of the gigs I am paid to do) but what I really like is to play Jazz fusion and all sorts of Brass/Synths/FM sounds/EPs/Organs I have on my PC... just having a 1 self contained unit (board) that can do that w/ great action, built in monitors and is not heavy, expensive and complex like a workstation would be MY DREAM instrument. Problem with Montage/Kronos = super heavy, expensive, no speakers and I don't use 90% of the capabilities they have which makes them not worth for me.

Imagine a "Korg Kronos" inside a ES920 chassis. The weight, look and action of the ES920's chassis .4 part multi timbral. About 5-6 of the Kronos engines (Pianos/EPs, Organs, FM synth, Analog Synth, Strings) with 0 editing capability. The only thing you can do is replace the sounds like a Nord using a PC, and edit the multi timbral setup + basic effects via the board itself. That's it. 0 Synthesis, no arp, no seuqencer, no sampling, no percussion pads, no touch screen, no plentiful knobs/sliders. Just raw sound + customizeability, effects, and master keyboard style layout.

This type of product ^^ could be priced slightly above what an ES920 currently is. We're talking about the same exact hardware, with the addition of like 1-2 chips and software already in existence no need for futher R&D for software development and software is cheap to implement anyway. This product would win the market so hard... I'd insta buy

^ I've fallen for that trap too. To think that having all in one keyboard would be great. However when you realize hammer-action keyboard is good only for acoustic piano patches and Rhodes, it all starts making sense. There's nothing wrong in bringing/using two keyboards. And it's easier to use since you don't have to screw around with splits and programming on the spot with some menus and BS. You just use the hammer action as a very simple piano/Rhodes board and add to it a very good synth for what it is: a synth. I can whole heartedly recommend the ASM Hydrasynth, especially the polyphonic aftertouch keyboard, it gives yet another dimension of expressiveness for us keyboard players. It's absolutely the best aftertouch implementation in any synth keyboard by far and is very controllable. Many synths provide only channel aftertouch and even it is appalling and acts like an on/off switch. Not on the Hydrasynth, you can apply very precise and smooth gradation of aftertouc. Per finger! How about that. And they just announced Hydrasynth Explorer which is very compact three-octave version of it, still with poly AT, and also a Deluxe version which is bi-timbral and with 7-octaves.

Very wise words.

So you say that the P, FP and ES series are geared towards amateurs. I consider myself as an amateur, but I am wondering why a Profesional keyboard with folded action teacher (teaching songs as you said) has bought an amateur slab?
Are you considering yourself as an amateur too?
Well you said in another thread that as a consumer you don't need to be objective, and you want to put a hand on a ES920 to make a review. I can tell you you are wasting your time since the ES is made for amateur and will deceive you at the highest possible point.
Your time is more valuable.

I found very coherent all the above here.

But I would like an opinion, for those who already own a synth/work MOX8 at home and want only better pianos and evolve the physical part of the keys, without leaving the Yamaha brand, a way to achieve something like what was said without spending too much would just add a p515 as my master because it has leakage in its key mechanism and everything else.

This would be a wise option, the MOX8 still has a lot to offer despite the little polyphony, staying with it is still a good choice isn't it?

Hugs to all.

Rajane.

The Roland Jupiter-50 would fit the bill. The piano sound is long in the tooth though. Its semi-weighted action is better for piano and electric piano than a graded weight hammer action is for organs and synthesizers.

I couldn't disagree more. hammer action keyboard is good for everything, especially the light touch of the something like ES920 or Yamaha Montage 8 (which I owned for several years) , it's great for organs, synths, etc. and I could play literally anything on it (wouldn't ever do that on a stiff action like P515). While 2 boards setup is super cool and useful in theory it makes gigs/rehearsals more of a chore than fun : because of weight, logistics, connectivity, amplification, needing a 2 tier stand etc. In a perfect world I'd obviously use a 2 board setup none of which have speakers. But for most people me included gigging is not the primary job, I don't perform in front of 10k people every week nor do I have my own road crew etc.

Plus I have my special sounds I like to use that can be only loaded on an FM engines like Yamaha/Korg and Kurzweil have. If you use something like a ES920 + Hydrasynth or a knob perfunction synth as a top board you're stuck with whatever sounds they offer. a Hydra/analog/VA synth etc. can't sound like a Prophet 5, a Moog, a DX7, a Vox continental, etc. Also, an ES920/FP90X etc. have a super limited sound pallette and in all cases the none acoustic piano sound are nowhere near as good as a Kronos/Montage. and while you can get close to some of these, a workstation can get you everything without compromise and for an artist getting exactly "that" sound is very important (at least for me). Which is why so many big names use them even though they don't use 90% of their capabilities as they just bring them to load the actual sounds they want for their set...

Which is why I'd prefer a single board to cover it all, 88/(76) hammer action that can do what I described in my previous post - have a super good hammer action, decent monitors and being able to achieve any sound I want, don't care for anything else. Simply play. Editing is a breeze if you have a PC for doing all that stuff. MOUSE + KEYBOARD >>>>> dealing with an older generation touch screen workstations usually have.

Jordan Rudess once stated in a video interview that he only uses Kronos 88 for his keyboard/synth duties because it has everything (he does have a few additional gadgets like slider MIDI board etc. but for a keyboard he doesn't use a multi tiered setup). This is exactly my approach, especially since I don't want gigs to become a logistical chore however a Kronos would be too heavy to fit in my small car and be managed by myself..

@sweetlinck Jupiter 50 is nice I think, but its sounds are dated and it can't load DX7 sysex.. Don't know about its action but I prefer hammer action even over semi weighted.

@RAJANE for home use just use whatever keyboard you already have as MIDI and git some good VSTs.

As soon as the market stabilizes I intend to acquire an instrument with a key mechanism superior to the GHS that comes in the MOX8, I think the P515 is a good choice for my case, the only certainty I have is that I will continue with the Yamaha.

My doubt is whether having a second instrument in the setup will make a glaring difference in terms of versatility and put me on another level of fun because one of them is a workstation, as I never had this feature in practice I can't know the value of having two instruments of different purposes at the same time.

I don't want to have a pc in the setup, I've never used VST and I don't intend to have a complexity beyond 2 keyboards.

My doubt is whether the MOX8 is an instrument that should be kept for its versatility and if its low polyphony will be very harmful to the P515, after all one has 64 and the other 256.

Anyway, I don't really know what the potential of having a p515 in conjunction with a MOX8 is, I'm afraid to get rid of the MOX8 and in the future regret not having preserved my workstation.

It may be very naive, but this detail is bothering me.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.

Hello,

@RAJANE, Reading your post (above), I noticed your doubts about polyphony. It is something that often confuses people.

This is how it *should* be:
-> Polyphony is an aspect of the sound engine, not the keyboard action.
-> The MIDI message stream comes from the keyboard and the electronics that convert the keystrokes and pedal use into MIDI messages.
-> The MIDI stream is then used to drive the internal sound engine and/or external instruments that are connected through MIDI cables.

So, if you use both the MOX8 and the P515, connected to eachother through MIDI cables:
-> If you play MOX8 sounds using the MOX8 keyboard, the polyphony is 64;
-> If you play MOX8 sounds using the P515 keyboard, the polyphony is 64;
-> If you play P515 sounds using the MOX8 keyboard, the polyphony is 256;
-> If you play P515 sounds using the P515 keyboard, the polyphony is 256.

Hope this helps!

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

PS As others have already offered, I also do think it is better to use different keybeds for either the piano category of sounds and the organ/synthesizer category of sounds.

Thanks for the reply.

I know what polyphony is and what is its importance and ultility, what I did not know was whether playing on the P515 using the sounds of the MOX8 would have as limitation the smallest polyphony of the MOX8.

So this perfect, will always prevail the polyphony of the keyboard in which if you are physically touching your keys, in this case the other instrument will only make the role of brain and nothing else will manifest.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.

Nope, you got it a bit wrong.

The polyphony (number of simultaneous voices) is a characteristic of the tone generator, not the keyboard.

Then playing on a P515 with the MODX8 as the tone generator will get you the polyphony of the MODX8.
Playing on the MODX8 with the P515 as the tone generator will get you the polyphony of the P515.

What is a characteristic of the keyboard is the polyphonic aftertouch feature (but the tone generator must be compatible). We get away from the normal digital piano functions however.

So we went back to the beginning, my initial doubt was that I thought that if the MOX8 was the generator of the sounds, even being playing on the P515 would be limited to the polyphony of the MOX8.

"My doubt is whether the MOX8 is an instrument that should be kept for its versatility and if its low polyphony will be very harmful to the P515, after all one has 64 and the other 256.

Anyway, I don't really know what the potential of having a p515 in conjunction with a MOX8 is, I'm afraid to get rid of the MOX8 and in the future regret not having preserved my workstation.

It may be very naive, but this detail is bothering me."

Let's forget mid, in case you have the two instruments connected to a 8 chanel mixer table this polyphonic difference would go unnoticed when switching from one instrument to another or would it be rare for this to happen?

Simply put, who has a MOX8 if buying a P515 will find the MOX8 an outdated and much inferior instrument in terms of sound quality?


Hugs to all.

Rajane.

Rajane, I will send you an private message in Portuguese.

I understand from a previous message of yours that you are using google translate so part of the meaning must being lost in the translation.

The way I understand your message is:

You play on the P-515, using it as controller only (no sound generator) and it is connected to MOX8 and MOX8 works as the sound generator. Then, polyphony is 64, because it is not P-515 which generates the sound, it is MOX8.

You play on MOX8, using it as controller only (no sound generator) and it is connected to P-515 and P-515 works as the sound generator. Then, polyphony is 256, because it is not MOX8 which generates the sound, it is P-515.

The part below of your message is wrong, unless you meant another thing and the translation was the opposite of what you meant

Thanks to everyone for your understanding and kindness.

Using a translator sometimes complicates instead of helping.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.

I’m stuck between these 2 regarding the keybed action. I’ve gotten acclimated and actually like the heavy action from my Roland FP30. I assume the Yamaha P515 will be somewhat similar.

I hear the ES920 has lighter action, but is it too light or does it feel like semi-weighted? No stores around me have the ES920 or P515 in stock for me to test.

I don’t play classical, etc. I strictly play contemporary Christian worship music.

So my decision, comes strictly down to the key action. I appreciate any input! Thanks!

The keyboard you use as a midi controller does not limit polyphony-- the sound engine does. If you want to use a P-515 as a midi controller action to play MOX8 sounds, all you need to do is use a Motif XS rack with the P-515. If you want a full separate keyboard on the MOX/Motif, you would be better off with a MOX6 for a semi-weighted action to play organ, synthesizer, and acoustic samples for other instruments.

What you probably read is that human rib cages resonate in the 50-60Hz range, creating the phenomenon of bass you can feel. Speakers that accentuate bass in that region are sometines viewed as have deep bass, which is not correct.

The ES920 or MP7SE both have the Kawai RHIII action. It is a graded hammer weight piano action of average downweight for a piano. The P-515 action is much heavier, but not because the RHIII is semi-weighted.

For contemporary music performance, the MP7SE dusts the P-515 or ES920. You get a Hammond B3 emulator, pianos, electric pianos, and range of other sampled sounds, and the ability to layer 4 sounds with a midi mixer, or assign up to 4 sounds to keyboard splits. As a stage piano, it has a more robust build to withstand hauling to and from rehearsals and gigs.

I believe the maximum number of notes MOX/F can generate over a MIDI channel is 192 (not sure). You need to check it with a Yamaha representative.

The controller actually has a limit over the number of notes it can simultaneously generate!

So if your DP has a 256 notes polyphony, MOX/F probably can only generate 192 max notes in controller mode or as a sequencer!

That said, I highly suggest that Rajane borrows a friend's DP for a day or two to see if it fits his needs.

You can even rent one before making the big decision.

Haha... so the controller does limit the polyphony depending on how crappy it is. I'm saying this because I'm 110% about it

Cheers!

I appreciate that info, but how is the sound engine and piano tone in comparison to the ES920 and P-515? Tone wise I’m steering towards ES920 second to the P515. I’m also trying to keep my budget within that ES920/P-515 pricing.

This particular digital piano I plan to keep in my home. And having quality onboard speakers is a must. Also any sort of gigging, etc. my church already uses a Nord Electro 6D, connecting to a PA system.

> I assume the Yamaha P515 will be somewhat similar.

It feels different, heavy at the top but gets light at the bottom. FP30 is kind of vice versa. ES920 not thaaat light, but different too.

> No stores around me have the ES920 or P515 in stock for me to test.
Pity. If you can't, order one from a place that accepts returns.

Not an option in Brazil, unfortunately.

About the poly limit as a controller, I was not sure and I almost commented that in my last post as a possibility but I decided to keep it simple (the other being if 256 is really 256 or there are those tiny print on the footnotes ). Still, 192 is still pretty decent and enough for nearly everybody.

I did recently check out a piano store/outlet and tried a bunch of different acoustic pianos to get a feel of the varying key actions. Even though some felt heavier and some felt lighter, they all felt great.

This one upright piano acoustic Yamaha B1/PWH to me had such a buttery smooth action. I was throughly impressed by its key action.

Im sure any of the stores near me have a 15-30 day return policy. I just don’t like ordering things on a risk and dealing with the hassle of returning.

> Im sure any of the stores near me have a 15-30 day return policy. I just don’t like ordering things on a risk and dealing with the hassle of returning.


Sure returning is hassle, all of these come in big and heavy boxes, that's why trying firstly is a much better idea, but you write you can't. But it is even bigger hassle to have to pay a big restocking fee or can't return at all - it is hassle to sellers too.

I think people mostly adapt to various key actions, except some who really hit some capability limits. But it is annoying if the DP action is very different from your own AP you also play, or from your teacher's AP you play at lessons, etc.

Exactly, and I’m sure these big ticket items have a restocking fee of typically 10-15%!

I don't have 192 fingers, so not a limitation. With a sound engine, layering of tones means you can need more than one voice-note of polyphony to play a single key on the keyboard.

If you are in the US, and not too far from a Guitar Center store, you can order from them and return to a store if necessary-- no shipping or restocking fee. You may want to cerify that is still the case, and they are in bankruptcy, so there is some immeasurable risk that they shutter the business after receiving it and before you return it.

@Sweelinck : if you press the pedal, each time you press a key, you use a polyphony voice, even if you press a key you have already hit before.

Then you can need use a 100 voice polyphony on a typical piece of music where you will use only a small subset of the 88 keys. (I get typically 120 on the Chopin’s Fantaisie Impromptue - 128 or 192 won’t change anything).

But if you reach the limit, a new key will stop one of the less loud note which typically remains unheard.

The actions of the P-515 and ES920 are very different. The CFX on the P-515 and SK-EX on the ES920 are both fine for a DP. I would be happy with either. If you swapped the two piano sounds I would still buy the ES920 because the P-515 action is unusable for me personally.

GC seems to have them both on backorder. Who knows how long that will take for them to receive it. Lol

I appreciate the input regarding the action.

I'm not aware that midi sends "I'm still sustained" messages for notes. Isn't a pedal off message what will stop the note from being sustained? I think you are still describing a polyphony limit of the sound engine, not the midi controller.

When the sustain pedal is done, any Note-off are not processed immediately but the process is postponed to the pedal release :

Then

Pedal down / Note on / note off / note on / note off / Pedal released. While need 2 voices of polyphony. Even if you trigger the same note.

I have written my answer because you wrote « I don't have 192 fingers, so not a limitation ». The sound engine needs a polyphony which is quite high compared to your 10 fingers. (Yes, it is about the sound engine).

I was not referring to the sound engine when I wrote that. I think you maybe have not followed the thread closely. I was responding to this:


Limiting polyphony of a midi controller to 192 is not a limitation for playing. If you mix a bunch of sequenced midi tracks with a midi mixer maybe you could run into the limit.

Wether you was speaking about the MIDI controller or the sound generator doesn’t change a point : you can’t deduce the needed velocity by the numbers of fingers, even with a unique instrument like the piano. Your sentence could be interpreted like « I have 10 fingers, then I only need a 10 voices polyphony » which is false.

But I agree that 192 is not a limitation for the piano. 128 would be fine too.

Sorry, Sweelinck, but I think Abdol's post was perfectly clear; he did not say anything about limitation for playing; instead, a (possible) limitation of the controller (MOX8) to meet the controlee's higher polyphony capability.

If you were following the thread, you would know that this was my first sentence on this matter:

The keyboard you use as a midi controller does not limit polyphony-- the sound engine does.

You can see it in the quote Abdol responded to as well.

Abdol suggested that midi controllers also limit polyphony such as to 192 notes. How would you generate 192 simultaneous "note on" midi messages by pressing keys on an 88-key controller?

I have no argument with the sound engine limiting polyphony as noted.

Consider a sound engine with unlimited polyphony activated by playing a midi controller with 88 keys and a 192-note polyphony limit. Please explain what cannot be played because of the polyphony limit of the midi controller.

I think that is the point of the before last Frédéric's post: the controller has to keep track of the keys released while the sustain pedal is kept pressed until it is released and that could limit the polyphony from the controller side.

FWIW, per MOX8's manual, polyphony of the 16 tracks sequencer is 126 notes.

I don't think midi controllers keep track of which keys are sustained by the pedal. The sound engine implements the sustained notes. When it receives a note off, if it received a pedal on, it will not turn off the note until it receives pedal off.

The limit is a sequencer limit, not a limit for interactive playing. Hook a MOX8 up to a sound engine with unlimited polyphony and use a long enough piece of wood to press all 88 keys simultaneously. All 88 notes will sound on the sound engine.

This is true. I am also not sure about 192. It might be 128. For those who are really interested, I referred you to a Yamaha expert. That means you should go to yamahasynth.com and ask this question. There is a limit on the number of notes that can be "simultaneously" sent by the controller.

Also, the polyphony in Yamaha synthesizers is defined in terms of "MONO" samples. If samples are stereo, the polyphony needs to be divided by 2, half of the stated.

So the MOTIF XF has 128 notes (mono samples) polyphony and 64 notes when the samples are stereo.

This polyphony is defined in terms of simultaneous notes you can send over. The sound engine's polyphony is impacted by many other parameters.

The sequencer and interactive playing combined, internally have 128 notes polyphony. In the pure controller mode (interactive in your case), it's a value more than 128, but it's limited.

So when you play and you have the sequencer on and use the MOX as an external controller (both your sequencer and the keybed send to MIDI OUT), there is a cap on the number of notes that can be sent.

This can be tested by hooking a controller to a MIDI monitoring software.

Most of the events are never simultaneous. They keybed is considered as a different element in keyboards I beleive.

It makes sense. Not sure about the controller side not being limited, but TBH, I do not care.

The server side sound engine has to maintain the set of sustained notes anyway regardless of what the midi controller does. And there are simple midi controllers that lack the hardware to do this, such as midi sensors put in acoustic pianos to make silent pianos.

I struggled a lot with Yamaha's wooden action when switching from the very light Kawai ES100 AHA-4F action. I still kept it, because the whole Yamaha P-515 package was so much better overall than the Kawai ES8, whose action felt identical to the ES100 to me.

Now almost three years later and after not much practice (action sounds and looks pretty much like new still), my dynamic control improved tremendously with the P-515. This especially shows when playing low end actions like GHS and RHC and it tells me that consistent pianissimo is a feature of the pianist and not of the digital piano. And such features cannot develop on lightweight low-end gear, regardless of the practice time spent.

JoeT: maybe you are right, but your statement is hardly scientific. You played the es100 for an x number of years. Then you played the p515 for another 3 years, and noticed that after these 3 years your control of pianissimo is vastly improved (in fact it is not after 3 years, but after your entire past practice plus the x years of the es100 plus those 3, unless you assume that motor control is erased everytime you change keyboard models). And from that you conclude that the gain in control is a feature of the pianist, that cannot be gained when using a lighter action. I don't follow neither the logic neither the evidence, and Horowitz would dispute your statement on lightweight actions.

It seems to me that you now need an ES110 to finalise your all-round keyboard playing experience level. Particularly if you're the wrong side of 60 . . . . 3 years on a 515 is just too much for the digits.
Best thing I ever did was change mine after 2.

Correct technique is crucial, especially on hammer-weighted digital pianos, as even the ones that feel light put much more load on the joints and tendons than any acoustic piano. I've seen young people getting hurt, who self-taught by piano apps. Weighted actions are no joke.

On this, I agree with you...

I used to practice tae kwon do (silver medal heavy weight) and I did a couple of amateur boxing matches.

In that kind of situations, you can truly run the risk of injuring yourself… I am more sceptical the same would happens playing a sub-par weighted action.

All personal experience and can't be generalized. I'd tak the above statement with a grain of salt.


An absurdly heavy action is not productive. It's like going to the gym and building muscles. You will loose accuracy and control if you play on a too heavy action.

I mentioned this as a general rule and I am by no means saying P-515 is good or bad.

Are you saying the P-515 is bad, is that what you’re saying?

Whom are you addressing the question?

The collective?

That is obvious nonsense.

Professional pianists can injure themselves using regular piano actions, if they put in too many hours on too demanding repertoire. However amateurs combining improper technique with improper repertoire on improper actions are more likely to do so.

I have heard of some people injuring themselves because of excess of piano training or wrong technical approach, but this is anecdotal… I won’t base the analysis of an action on the remote riavi that someone could be injured by its use.

At least, if the keyboard is not used as a percussive weapon. ;-)

For the regular users / owners of these pianos. Do the p-515 or ES920 make you feel somehow close to playing an acoustic?

My view of playing the piano is not the same as yours. It's not the Olympic weightlifting contest nor a jihadi training camp.

Touch-heavy means heavier than a standard (expected) piano action. A touch-heavy action is characterized by millions of variables.

An action with balanced weights is smooth. You don't need to discretely play the keys and playing legato parts is nice and consistent on it.

I found new acoustic pianos to have stiff(er) actions but the more you play them, the more forgiving they become and this has nothing to do with muscle development. I'm fine on playing on stiff actions but like I said it's impossible to play trills or fast passages nicely when the touch is absurdly heavy.

I found too heavy actions sluggish.

Also, google it if you have problems digesting my statement:

https://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

Of course, this requires you to change the way you think about playing pianos.

If you're zealous about the action and see playing piano as banging on the keys like jihadi attacker, the concept of action is not for you.

You will change your mind about this when or by the time you get to my age

"riavi"?

Sorry, issues with my orthographic corrector … I meant risk.

PS I am 58

Missed this one.

P-515 has a fine action. It's on the heavy side but not touch-heavy. It's not too heavy. You probably haven't played on a too heavy action.

I was simply curious, Abdol, no need to be so rude!

It seems as though the ES920 is back ordered everywhere, and SamAsh is 6+ months wait. And the P-515 is like 3-4 months. Are they that much in demand? Or is it due to low productivity due to the pandemic?

Sorry Pete, but I don't think he was rude. I mean it.


It seems to me you do not read Abdol's posts with the due attention.

Perhaps I have overreacted, but please understand that I tend to get a little sensitive during “that time of the month” (when the bills are due), and yes, I did notice his ‘I am not saying P-515 is good or bad’, but for some reason I took this as code for “the P-515 is bad”. Once again, I apologize for misinterpreting the initial post and then accusing Abdol of being rude, for it is now clear that I, Pete, was the one being overly sensitive, and yes, perhaps even rude.

Post deleted

It is not piano-specific... There is an overall lack of electronic components for many industries, due to covid related productivity problems in asia (or so the story goes). I have to sign the contract for a new car by monday if I want it delivered by april (assembled and produced in europe); if I wait a few more days, delivery will be pushed to june. And some optionals are not available due to lack of electronics...

It's ok Pete14 we are a community and this happens all the time, including me! I sometimes misunderstand and overreact too.


Thanks vagfilm. I mostly try to stay away from the topic in these situations. Also, I am straightforward in writing sometimes that may lead to misunderstanding too.

Abdol: you're welcome, but I have no idea why you are thanking me... Maybe you were addressing EVC2017?

I figured, and wow June 2022. Everything is delayed apparently.

Not even remotely close. An acoustic piano features a piano action, which you can sense through the keys. That action is simply not there in digital pianos.

At least there is no misunderstanding LOL (kidding) and yes.

As an owner of a P515 since February 2021, I can attest to the following:

I am able to transition nicely to a Grand Piano with a lighter action (the piano is over 100 years old and very sensitive) - I practiced using the lightest touch on the P515 (soft2) paying special attention to PPP and PP sections. I finally played the acoustic grand mentioned above after many months away from an acoustic and I was very satisfied that I was able to play the grand with very little adjustment needed. So, I am happy that I have this great practice piano for my apartment and also relieved that practicing on it has not been wasted time and I am able to transition to an acoustic easily This was my main concern all along. I like the lower and of the register on the P515 compared with the ES920 and I don't like the key sound on the ES920. Other than that, the two both sound great. I prefer the P515

I find the RHIII action of the ES8 (and ES920 and MP7SE) to provide noticeably more control of dynamics than does the RHC action of the ES110 or ES100.

That is really interesting, because here we have 2 p-515 users (JoeT and Danno858), and one is saying that there is a huge difference between the P-515 and an acoustic and the other one just said that the P-515 allows him to transition nicely to a grand piano.

I guess that subjectivity in all this is really the determining factor, because at the end it depends of what is important for you, where you put your expectatives etc...
And I do think that both peoples are rights because these are their own feelings at this particular time.
But given this and being aware of this, one should not take a personal feelings for universal truth.

I don't see those two statements as being mutually exclusive. Both could be true. But it really depends on the person, their experience level, tolerances to difference, etc. Some people are picky, some very rigid, and some simply adjust on the fly.

FWIW - I almost always need an adjustment period just transitioning between acoustic pianos. And although I remind myself that a digital piano is not a real acoustic piano to keep my expectations in check, I do find that my DP actually sounds and responds much better than many acoustics I have played. So it’s relative as well as subjective I suppose.

I never need any time of adjustment to transition between my digital and my grand piano. I sit down, and I play well.

I agree 100% with you. That is why i wrote that they are both rights, and that they enhance the subjectivity and relativity of opinions. Because out of the same thing (P-515), one is saying it is not close to an acoustic and the other one is saying it is (knowing that it isn´t one)
Since piano playing is made of nuances, subtleties, it seems, for me, that one must not be too peremptory with its own opinion and should not use its own opinion as a norm for others.
P.S. : i do not say this for you Gombessa, but i only used your response to develop my argumentation.

As I see it, no matter the differences between acoustics and digitals, the main point is that without a digital most people wouldn't even practice, albeit in an "inferior" instrument.

Then we have the matter of perspective. There is no doubt that digitals and acoustics are different, and some people just concentrate in the differences, instead of seeing the obvious similarities and advantages.

Now, as for the topic, I have no idea how the es920 plays, but I am sure it is as nice as the yamaha, and the reasons I chose the Yamaha was availability first, and reliability second. But this was just personal.

I have seen you received your P-515. Congratulation and enjoy your new piano.

Myself, I bought the ES-920 because it was the newest piano, there were availability at that time, and the price i get was lower than the P-515 and the Roland FP-90 (the FP-90X wasn´t released at that time).
The actions,sounds and playability of all 3 are really great (at least at my level), i could have bought any of the 3 but the determining factors for my choice was the above mentioned.

After one year playing I am still happy with my purchase and i am sure I would have been happy with the P-515 or the FP-90.

To clarify and further increase your adult beginner confusion: No digital piano with a folded action feels anywhere close to playing an acoustic piano, but the P-515 allows me to transition nicely to a any acoustic upright or grand piano as well - especially Yamaha grands.

As I teach piano, I need to be able to transition between acoustic and digital instruments. That's part of the skillset.

No comment.

May I ask you, JoeT, since when you are teaching piano? and to whom?

What a change... A sensible and well articulated explanation with opinions stated as opinions and not as facts. Keep the tone like this, please... I promise to not talk back to all nonsense, no spirits get fired up, and no loved members get banned...

If you think it's your job as a new member to police discussion on this forum, then you can have it for yourself!

No, it is not my job. I think you should do this yourself.
And if not, the moderators should do this, and they should look at all the posts you have written.

So in your logic, OLD trolls trump newer members, that's it?

So we have yet another nice topic derailing and under the risk of being locked and other members being "invited" to leave the premises. Please, guys, let it go.

Hallo

Ich schreibe hier zum ersten Mal.

Habe mit über 50 den Wunschklavier zu spielen, es zu erlernen.

Von den räumlichen Zusammenhang war nur der Kompromiss ein Stagepiano zu kaufen.
Roland FP 90x ist sofort aus der Betrachtung gefallen, so dass der Vergleich zwischen Yamaha und Kawai übrig geblieben ist. Entschuldigt bitte, wenn ich meine Empfindungen nicht so professionell ausdrücke.

Das Yamaha empfinde ich als wertiger, auch wenn der Materialmix seltsam anmutet.

Das Kawai in dem heute üblichen Kunststoffgehäuse, aber gute Spaltmaße.

Ich freue mich beim Auf- und Abbau über das geringere Gewicht beim Kawai von 17 kg.

Das Yamaha liebt die linke Hand, den Bassbereich, wärmer, mehr Volumen, Volumen in der Tiefe spürbar.

Je höher ich komme, ich wechsle zur Mitte, zur rechten Hand, spielt, aus meiner Sicht, das Kawai seine Stärken aus. Sauber, geradliniger Klang, so stelle ich mir einen großen Konzertflügel vor. Entschuldigung, mir ist bewusst, dass im mechanischen Bereich andere Qualitätsanmutungen gelten.

Die Tastatur eine Philosophie für sich. Vielleicht für mich als Newcomer einfacher sich zu entscheiden.

Die NWX spielt sich unaufgeregt, etwas mehr Kraft zum Spielen setzt sie voraus, nicht unangenehm, federt nicht zurück, meldet sich wieder an ihrer ursprünglichen Position, also meine Wahrnehmung.

Die RH3 mit weniger Aufwand, Druck zu spielen, leicht federnd beim Rückschlag (2-fach) aber nicht unangenehm.

Ich habe beide Tastaturen in mehreren Klavierhäusern gespielt, beide für mich in Ordnung.
Vielleicht die RH3 für klassische Stücke etwas besser geeignet.

Am Ende hat die Logistik mitentschieden, das Kawai am Lager, das Yamaha erst September / Oktober, kaum noch Instrumente in Europa verfügbar. Zudem gewährt Kawai 5 Jahre Garantie.

Hello,

@MG69, Bitte schreiben Sie auf Englisch, for this is an international English speaking forum.

Grüsse,

HZ

Sorry

Hello

I am writing here for the first time.

Have with over 50 the desire piano to play, to learn it.

From the spatial context was only the compromise to buy a stage piano.
Roland FP 90x immediately fell out of consideration, leaving the comparison between Yamaha and Kawai. Please excuse me if I do not express my feelings so professionally.

I feel the Yamaha is more valuable, even if the mix of materials seems strange.

The Kawai in the now common plastic case, but good gaps.

I am happy when assembling and disassembling the lower weight at the Kawai of 17 kg.

The Yamaha loves the left hand, the bass range, warmer, more volume, volume in the depth noticeable.

The higher I get, I switch to the middle, to the right hand, plays, from my point of view, the Kawai its strengths. Clean, straight sound, that's how I imagine a great concert grand. Excuse me, I am aware that in the mechanical field, other quality standards apply.

The keyboard is a philosophy in itself. Maybe easier for me as a newcomer to decide.

The NWX plays unexcited, a little more force to play it requires, not unpleasant, does not bounce back, reports back to its original position, so my perception.

The RH3 with less effort, pressure to play, slightly springy on recoil (2-fold) but not unpleasant.

I have played both keyboards in several piano houses, both fine for me.
Maybe the RH3 for classical pieces a bit better suited.

In the end, the logistics has also decided, the Kawai in stock, the Yamaha only September / October, hardly any instruments available in Europe. In addition, Kawai grants a 5-year warranty.

Hallo MG69,

Ja, was Sie sagen, ist eine gute Zusammenfassung. Das Kawai ist eine spätere Version, daher ist die Klangqualität etwas besser. Der Klavierton – eine persönliche subjektive Präferenz – würde zwischen dem dunkleren, wärmeren, sanften Ton des SK9 und dem helleren Yamaha CFX-Flügel und seinem tiefen, resonanten Bass liegen. Ich stimme zu, dass die oberen Oktaven des Kawai ausgezeichnet sind. Eine Sache, die Sie im Hinterkopf behalten sollten: Wenn Sie hauptsächlich Klavier wollen, gibt es zwei Kawai-Slab-Piano-Instrumente, die eine bessere Aktion haben als das RHIII: das Kawai VPC1 (ein Piano-Controller, der erfordert entweder ein Soundmodul oder ein Laptop/VSTi zur Bereitstellung von Sound) und das Heimbühnenklavier: Kawai MP11SE. Das MP11SE ist ein paar Jahre alt, daher ist der Ton auch eine Generation hinter dem ES920 zurück, aber es hat die Grand Feel 1-Mechanik – die beste Mechanik, die derzeit für ein Plattenklavier erhältlich ist. Der MP11SE wird möglicherweise bald aktualisiert, könnte sich aber durchaus verzögern, bis sich die Covid-Situation und die Mikrochip-Situation ändern. Es gibt ein paar Modelle mit den Grand Feel 1- und II-Aktionen, die Sie möglicherweise im Handel finden – Sie können ausprobieren, ob Sie diese Aktion bevorzugen. Die VPC1-Mechanik ist die zweitbeste Slab-Piano-Mechanik auf dem Markt und der Grand Feel 1-Mechanik sehr ähnlich, außer dass die schwarzen Tasten in der Nähe der Tastatur etwas schwerer sind. Hoffe, das hilft!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Doug

Hi MG69,

Yes, what you say is a good summary. The Kawai is a later release, so the sound quality is somewhat better. Piano tone--- being a personal subjective preference---would be between the darker warmer mellow tone of the SK9 versus the brighter Yamaha CFX grand and it's deep resonant bass. I agree that the upper octaves of the Kawai are excellent One thing to bear in mind: if you are wanting mainly piano, there are two Kawai slab piano instruments which have a better action than the RHIII: the Kawai VPC1 (a piano controller which requires either a sound module or a laptop/VSTi to provide sound) and the home-stage piano: Kawai MP11SE. The MP11SE is a few years old, so the tone is also one generation behind the ES920, but it has the Grand Feel 1 action---the best action currently available for a slab piano. The MP11SE might be updated sometime soon, but could well remain delayed till the Covid situation and the microchip situation change. There are a few models with the Grand Feel 1 and II actions which you might find in stores---you could try out to see if you prefer that action. The VPC1 action is the second best slab piano action available, and very similar to the Grand Feel 1 action, except that the black keys are slightly heavier close to the fallboard. Hope that helps,

Kind regards, Doug

"The MP11SE is a few years old, . . , but it has the Grand Feel 1 action---the best action currently available for a slab piano.The MP11SE might be updated sometime soon, but could well remain delayed till the Covid situation and the microchip situation change. There are a few models with the Grand Feel 1 and II actions which you might find in stores---you could try out to see if you prefer that action. The VPC1 action is the second best slab piano action available, and very similar to the Grand Feel 1 action, except that the black keys are slightly heavier close to the fallboard.

Doug! It's not only the piano sound that is subjective . . . .

You're right of course: everything is objective, except our perception of it.

Thanks for the recommendations

The MP11 SE is unfortunately in a different league financially, an additional €600.

To the plus of accessories like necessary stand, a studio quality headphone etc.

I had thought about so to start, maybe in 3/4 years, in a spatially different situation to switch to a mechanical piano

Tbh, if you're just starting to play, any of the portable pianos will do just fine (FP90X, P515, ES920).
The difficulty is to find a good teacher who you can get along with, and to develop a creative passion for learning (not just syllabus led alone).

In your situation, I wouldn't wait, I'd dive in with both hands pointing towards the water.

Thanks a lot
I am convinced by the ES 920 , with both instruments being the upper level.
I also on the Yamaha can not wait 8 months, I have to learn now 😉

I owned the P-515 for a year, and found it to be worthy. While I can’t say which is better, both because that’s individual preference and because I’ve never tried the Kawai, I can offer insight on the Yamaha.

The P-515 has the same sound engine & samples as the flagship CLP-700 series (which ranges from $2500 to $12,000) and the same action as the older CLP-600 series and the CSP-170 ($5000+ instrument). So, for a about $1500, you get the same sound, action, & technology that they use in many of their super-expensive premium flagships, in a slab piano format. Sure you don’t get the full piano cabinet, and you have to buy the stand and pedals separately, but it’s worth it. That was one of the main draws for me when I got it. The idea of getting flagship tech in an affordable piano, with the only sacrifice being that it’s in a slab format was great. But once you buy the stand and pedals, it becomes it’s own “miniature cabinet” piano, so it still works.

As is always the case with these brands, the Yamaha has a harder action than the Kawai, but I find that to be beneficial for practice, especially if you will be using acoustics at some point. Acoustic action can seem deceptively “light”, but after playing on one for a while, fatigue can set in, because the “lightness” perceived on an acoustic is more about the ease of playability than the actual lightness of weight. Acoustics can also vary wildly, from expertly prepared and maintained, to old warhorse instruments with hard actions that require lots of force. To me, Yamaha’s tougher action may be better at building for acoustic playing.

That said, Kawai is a super brand as well that makes extremely desirable instruments & has made equally great strides in action & tech as well. So it’ll ultimately come down to personal preference.

Both are really good digital pianos. I like the sound and touch of Kawai more, but P-515 is also a really nice instrument and I would be happy picking P-515 if my choices were limitted.

You can't go wrong with any of them and the differences are minor, so pick the one you like the most.

Once again thank you for the feedback

my humble opinion :
RH3 is to me a more realistic "action", if by action you mean the force the keys apply to your fingers when you press the keys along their travel. That's the problem I have with Yamaha's action, their static weight is huge but once they start moving they get lighter, that does not seem very realistic to me.
but I already described at length the RH3 problem: the keys tend to bounce, move around, rattle, make clicking noise, does not wear very well. That's why it feels more plastiky to me than NWX or PHA50 (nevermind the wood they put in the keys which is purely esthetic).
at the end of the day I would probably say the P515 has the best keybed of the two.
but in the end of the day, you also choosed a ES920 over a VPC1/MP11 because you wanted a slab piano that produce a (great) sound, and I really prefer Kawai in the department over Yamaha (and Roland even more).

Love that! 😄

HZ

I don't know about sound engine & samples, but I agree. The P515 has the "overall best" of Yamaha tech for a very decent price (cheaper than the ES920 if a remember)

That's somewhat misleading...
Regarding the P515 and it's action (NWX), it is akin to a portable version of the CLP645.

The 645 is a midrange cabinet

695 GP
685
675
665 GP
645
635
625

Also, it's worthwhile pointing out that the P515 specs are somewhat less impressive than the CLP645. The P515 needs updating to match the CLP700 series!

---CLP645----
3 x 50 W amps (150W total)
Speakers: 16cm, 8cm, 2.5 cm dome & 2 spruce cone speakers
Power consumption: 60W
53 sounds

---P515----
(15W & 5W) amps x2 --- so 40W total
Speakers: (12cm + 6cm) & 2.5 cm dome
Power consumption: 15W
40 sounds

Price wise in the UK
P515 = £1,250 (RRP £1,999)
ES920 = £1,250

So no, practically, they are the same price.

Also, the CLP range isn't Yamahas flagship digital piano range, rather, it is the intermediate digital cabinet piano range, equivalent to Kawai CA series. Hybrid digitals are flagship digitals (Avant Grand and Novus ranges respectively).

As you can see, the portable piano ranges offer a bit less than the mid range models of the CLP and CA series, tied only by action ---for both P515 and ES920.

It would be nice if Yamaha and Kawai released a portable with their top digital actions and some bespoke monitors to boost the amplification a bit.

and the ES 920 is akin to a portable version of the CN series
I sign the check on the next ES with the GFC action...

Back in december 2020, I bought the ES920. I tried a lot of DP in price below 2000 Euros. I liked the P-515 and Es920, and i decided for the ES920 because it was a new model but also for the price differences.
Concerning the price, in physical store in Madrid, the P-515 and Es920 was at the same price (back then) and online sellers (international or national) have also the same price between the 2.
I found on the online page of a physical store in Sevilla (another city in Spain) that the ES920 was almost 150 euros less than the P515. My DP was delivered 2 days later from a company called "Bilbao Trading" (Madrid), which is the kawai representative for selling Kawai products in Spain. That means that my DP didn´t come from Sevilla but from Madrid, and directly from Kawai. In that case the physical store in Sevilla didn´t have to deal with stocks, offers price reduction and delivered directly from the Kawai central dealer. I didn´t found something simillar for Yamaha.
In short, prices of the 2 DPs back then were everywhere the same, with possibility to get a 10% discount for the Kawai digging a bit.
Also, CN39 and ES920 do not have the same sound engine (PHI vs. HI-XL) but i have to say i prefered the sound outputs of the CN39 (4 speakers) vs. the ES920 (2 speakers), when i tried them in the store. Adding the stand and the 3 pedals bar, made the full ES920 100 euros more than the CN39 (but still 150 less than the P-515)

They could easily put the Grand Feel into the ES925, and we'd be looking at something as deep as the MP11SE but perhaps not as popular lol. Not sure it would be as useful though

I think that for most people using the ES920 and the MP7SE, the RHIII is a better compromise for non-piano sounds; whereas, the MP11SE is perhaps much more suited to the pianist who wants something portable and who isn't going to be satisfied with tiny speakers that portables have---that being the main point i.e., if you want a great action, you'll no doubt want great sound, so you're less likely to be interested in a portable with only 40W total output. In some ways, having a slightly quicker action than the RHIII would be even better for organ and synth on the MP7SE, e.g., the rRHIII (rapid Responsive Hammer action), and for Billy Joel cover artists; however, maybe the compromise is just right, as one can always purchase a cheap second board to route the organs to.

Thus, no doubt that many of us are hoping for the Grand Feel III or higher to go into the MP11SE replacement, as that would keep the Kawai board as the choice board for that segment.

I'm going to bet that it will never happen. As long as Yamaha is putting folded actions in its slabs, Kawai will never put an unfolded action in ES-920.

Yamaha sees its profit in mass production, something Kawai can't achieve, therefore Kawai will put the GFC in MP11SE's successor to own the action-obsessed costumers. Yamaha doesn't care and both companies are apparently happy this way.

Unless Yamaha plays the same game, we will never see a major change in ES series.

Source

Is it really misleading? There was never a claim that the P-515 was exactly the same as the CLP-700, CLP-600, or CSP series, but simply that it has some of the same technology used in their flagships. And it does.

The P-515 has the same sound engine and samples used in the CLP-700 series. While the 700 series has Grand Expression Modeling & a binaural Bosendorfer sample added, beyond that, the base sound engine & main samples are the same. It also has the NWX action, which is used in the CLP-600 series (specifically the 645) and the CSP-170. It’s a given that the higher end models have better speakers & more power, but that was also never a claim made.

I’d also challenge the idea that the CLP & CA series aren’t “flagship” range. Both Yamaha & Kawai use the term “flagship” quite often to describe their Clavinova & CA series, and considers the top models to be the flagships of their digital brand:











Moreover, neither Kawai or Yamaha consider the Novus & AvantGrand lines to be digitals, but rather they list them under a completely different category: hybrid.





While that’s open to interpretation, both Yamaha & Kawai are very intentional in that they consider the “hybrid” to be different from the “digitals” and thus consider their Clavinova and CA flagships to be the flagships of their digital lines.

Taushi,

I agree with most of what you say but you are wrong here. The P515 is a contemporary product of the 600 series Clavinovas.

The 700 series has improved sound engine, resampled main piano sounds and improved (at least different - probably improved) key actions.

The P515 is very nearly a portable version of the CLP645, with obvious differences in onboard amplification and speaker configuration.

First of all, no Yamaha vs Kawai thing but in my understanding, this is how Yamaha works:

Yamaha's slabs (as well as Kawai) are always one generation behind its cabinet DPs. So P-515 falls short in terms of samples and action. The lower tier of the CLP series is mid-range while the higher-end becomes closer to its high-end products but not flagship for sure.

So Yamaha has 4 tiers: low, mid, high, and flagship.

The same goes for Kawai, with one big difference, there is a bit of a leak from high-end to mid-end and flagship to high-end, and that's because of sales. Kawai is a much much smaller company. It doesn't make race engines nor does it make almost every musical instrument you can think of. It also doesn't manufacture home and professional audio gears... so how can Kawai survive? It must offer something Yamaha doesn't. Better action in lower trims to persuade customers to buy Kawai instead of Yamaha.

I agree with EssBrace in this case. P-515 is mid-tier DP, and it sits in the lower end of this trim.

+ one more dynamic layer, which, however, can probably be attributed to the improved sound engine, as mentioned above.

Yeah, it will be interesting to experience the updated P515 when Yamaha decides to release the P520.

This video ---whilst the playing is cringe worthy---has a fairly unbiased review at timestamp 00:15:44 where they discuss the differences.



Do people prefer the black key graining on the Yamaha compared to the Kawai version on the RHIII action?

This actually is a really good comparison. ES-920 has a much better bread and butter voice set. The organ in P-515 is just sad. It's not brilliant in ES920 but it's
better.

The only thing someone needs to address is the construction of NWX vs GH3. My humble guess is that NWX is a minor improvement over it which sits RH-III above it.

Well, perhaps I am wrong on the sound engine. I was told by the dealer that the base sound engine was the same and the CFX binaural/CFX+Bosendorfer non-binaural samples were the same between the 515/600/700 series. Of course, the key actions are different and I was never under the impression that NWX and GrandTouch are the same, but I was told the sound engines were alike, minus the “additions” to the 700. This was, of course, what the dealer told me when I bought the P-515, so perhaps that was mere sales-talk after all.


Thanks for sharing this information. Welp, that confirms that I was wrong regarding the sound engine! My apologies to all for being incorrect in that regard!


Again, if Yamaha refers to their high-end CLPs as “flagship”, then that’s what they consider flagship:





Same with Kawai:


Both Yamaha & Kawai also make a distinction between digital & hybrid. To Kawai & Yamaha, their flagship digitals are the CA & Clavinova, while their flagship hybrids are the N3X and Novus10/s. These are their definitions, not mine.

Also, I always acknowledged that the P-515 was mid-tier. My mentioning of the upper-level products was always simply about shared technology & specs that made the 515 a beneficial mid-level buy.

NWX is nothing like GH3 otherwise I would never have bought the 515. NWX was my preferred option of all the pianos I tried; I believe the CLP609 had it and the whole playing experience was wonderful.
Less on the 515, but even that was better than most.
The best for me right now is the ES110 and the RH compact action that suits it so well. It is so responsive with its own voices. Guys, you are seriously missing out! .

It's true that the ES110 and FP30X are both really good for the price category compared to the same category 10 years ago. I think we've to thank Casio for that: both the PX5S and PX360 Offered so much value and a comparable action to the P115, that all of a sudden, the action bar needed to rise a tad.

The FP30 was the only action I could stomach that category of portable pianos during in-store tests until the ES110 was released. I think Casio changed track and went for a different market segment, so seems that there was little extra value left for Casio in competing directly on action after the PHAIV standard was put in the FP30 and Kawai followed suit.

Glad you like your ES110 Peter.

It's interesting that very few releases have been made since covid. Makes you wonder what the companies are doing and will do regards to future instruments: are they are waiting for the right time to release instruments they've already completed; or, will they keep designing and just skip a cycle, so that they get a competitive jump on rivals that just release instruments meant for entry in 2019-2020 but end up released in 2022-2023 instead?!

Will we see any releases this year do you think?

Seems like we're in a funny position right now: not sure if things will get better, or if another variant will soon be forthcoming. Will live music recover this year...Also, are there other factors? So few stores are still open now, wonder how that's affecting plans for Yamaha et al.

Will Yamaha lighten their NWX action for the P525?

The piano actions for the clp700 series are indeed lighter, and very nice too imo. I might well have bought the 735 but the shop wouldn't reduce the asking price. Overall, I'm glad I didn't now. I read somewhere that the ES 920 will not be produced anymore, but (shrug) I can't think where. It will be intersting to see what transpires; but nobody can deny there's a great choice. when you can get your hands on them.
Seems, too, that most Yamahas are getting through to the shops with little difficulty now.

That is odd, unless there was a pretty bad design flaw that compromised it as a product to a point where its image was hopelessly damaged, which does not seem to be the case. I have read in some posts in this forum that production would be suspended through the middle of this year because of components shortage. That makes more sense.

Kawai sent their dealers a letter that due to the chip shortages they are not producing a number products to include the ES920 they expect to resume production in July I believe was the date. One of the dealers showed me the letter i meant to take a photo of it but forgot. But the date corresponds to a number of online outlets as well which they are saying the same date range.

Yamaha NWX in P-515:



Yamaha GH3:



NWX is def an improvement over GH3. The same design, exact same parts. There are probably some internal modifications but other than that they "look" identical to the naked eyes.



Compare this with GT-S and RH-III:

Kawai RH-III




Yamaha GrandTouch:




As you can see, GrandTouch has a similar construction (not identical obviously) to RH-III. I can't tell how much better or worts it is, but one thing for sure GT is better than NWX design-wise as uneven (unbalanced) weights can be embedded precisely just like RH-III.

Also, the addition of felts, wights, etc inside the lever is possible which is impossible in NWX and before.

Yamaha:

(low)Arius->(mid)CLP(high)->AvantGrand(flagship)

The same with Kawai.

There isn't a major difference between different CLP series. But there is a huge difference between the AvantGrand and the CLP series.

If I want to show case a Yamaha digital piano, I will pick an AvantGrand and what we see in the CLP series today were exclusive to the AvantGrand series at some point.

In Germany, the ES920 is still available online from some retailers. Where it is no longer available, it is advertised to be available from October 2022.

The P515 was not available for a long time. Must have been a big cargo ship coming in. Suddenly available again, since the middle of this week. Partly at very good conditions, cheaper than before.

I like the fact it is the hammer that pushes the sensor on the Kawai, and the mechanism looks like rocket science compared to the Yamaha's
Still look and feels "plasticky" and on the light side... meh

There is the kadunk kadunk sound to consider too.

LINK