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Posted By: QuasiUnaFantasia Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 03:14 PM
https://www.modartt.com

7.0.0 (2020/11/10):

  • All instruments improved (physical model improvements, and re-voicing).
  • New instrument added in the Model D pack: the New York Steinway D.
  • New feature: instrument morphing.
  • New feature: preset layers.
  • The macOS, Windows and Linux versions are now 64-bit only on x86 processors (linux/ARM still 32-bit).
Posted By: Otavio Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 03:31 PM
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 03:31 PM
Quote
New York Steinway D

Recorded at New York Steinway Hall in collaboration with Steinway
Modelled from Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument — the Model D Spirio|r

Has Pianoteq switched to being a sampled instrument now? Spirio is the Steinway equivalent of the Yamaha Disklavier, i.e. a player-piano system that uses solenoids and it's useful for creating automated sampling sessions of multiple velocity layers. Why would you model a piano VST after Spirio which is a mechanical system that has nothing to do with its sound? What have they modeled after it? The solenoid noises?

I'm confused... But it's a welcome addition for Pianoteq to stop modeling and instead switch to sampling 😉
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 03:35 PM
Funny! But I wouldn't count on it ...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Quote
Modelled from Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument — the Model D Spirio
Has Pianoteq switched to being a sampled instrument now? Spirio is the Steinway equivalent of the Yamaha Disklavier, i.e. a player-piano system that uses solenoids and it's useful for creating automated sampling sessions of multiple velocity layers.

I'm confused... But it's a welcome addition for Pianoteq to stop modeling and instead switch to sampling 😉
If Pianoteq switched to sampling then it would sound like a piano ... and they've consistently shown that they don't want that!
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 03:52 PM
I guess the modulation parameters are fine-tuned by comparison with a recording... this explain the Bechstein DIGITAL grand instrument (why trying to record a Bechstein when Bechstein has already done the job).

The Spirio can help Modartt record the Model D.
Posted By: Keybender Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:05 PM
So I just upgraded to Stage 7 for a fair 29€ and indeed, some of the distinct pianoteq-ness is gone. I immediately compared to my VSL Bösendorfer Imperial and while it doesn't sound quite as natural, it's certainly more pleasant and warm than before.
Need to play with it a bit but I immediately felt more connected to the instrument than before.

The upgrade is not groundbreaking but worth the money in my opinion.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:16 PM
I'll have to check it out tonight and see what it has to offer.
Posted By: TheodorN Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:31 PM
Why these drums in the intro video? Are they afraid to let Pianoteq 7 stand on it's own? cool
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:33 PM
Don't tell me that MacMacMac, the notorious PT hater, will be the first to try it ...
Trying it now.

But first, a handful of Tums and a quart of Pepto Bismol. smile
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Don't tell me that MacMacMac, the notorious PT hater, will be the first to try it ...
Trying it now.
I was sure you would be interested. Perhaps the v7 will be the good version, perhaps not !
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:40 PM
And if you purchased or updated your license less than a year ago, it is free!!!. I upgraded to standard in August 2020 so I am just installing it grin yippie
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
And if you purchased or updated your license less than a year ago, it is free!!!. I upgraded to standard in August 2020 so I am just installing it grin yippie

It's the exact same story for me, and I just downloaded it and played it for a while. Since buying the Synthogy Studio Grands a month ago, I have virtually not touched Pianoteq, so direct comparisons are a little bit difficult. That said, my first impression is that the new version sounds better. Less offensive in a way.

But, as usual, when there is a change to their model, my presets need work. Hopefully not too much.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Don't tell me that MacMacMac, the notorious PT hater, will be the first to try it ...
Trying it now.

But first, a handful of Tums and a quart of Pepto Bismol. smile

I'm sure you won't 3M. You will find something to not like about it which is fine. It is your constant bashing of the product where I disagree with you. Say it is not your taste and leave it alone.
Not to much to ask IMHO.

I'll see what I think when I get home tonight if I'm not to tired. I really thought they would of had a iPad version coming out with the release of version 7.
Posted By: nicknameTaken Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 05:06 PM
I'll probably wait till the next Winter : )
Posted By: klausi6 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 05:18 PM
i just upgraded for free, and i love the new Model D options.
Posted By: David Lai Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 05:19 PM
That New York D sounds interesting, I'll need to hear more before I can say if it's convincing enough...
Posted By: David Lai Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 05:21 PM
That New York D sounds interesting, I'll need to hear more before I can say if it's convincing enough. I've been watching Pianoteq for sometime, but so far I'm not tempted by it due to sounding synthetic.
Posted By: propianist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 06:19 PM
I've just had a brilliant idea - Modartt developers, I hope you are reading this...!!!!!!!!

Many years ago, it was me, propianist, who suggested to Niclas Fogwall about making the parameter edits note by note using a "graphic equalizer" with 88 sliders, rather than single global control, and this idea was successfully adopted into Pianoteq Pro.

Here's my new idea...

The Sound Recording mode allows almost infinite variable positioning of the virtual mics, any position in virtual 3D space (X,Y,Z coordinates and aiming any orientation angle.)
More importantly, the same 3D freedom is allowed for the virtual "headphones" in binaural model.

Now, those of you who've ever tried a Sony PlayStation PSVR or Oculus Rift virtual reality headset, will know that you experience a much more convincing illusion of tangible 3D "reality" from the live head motion-tracking virtual reality experience, than you ever feel before from simply looking at flat "fixed" 3D stereoscopic photographs, or holograms, or even a "moving but still fixed" 3D stereoscopic video (like watching 3D Blu Ray) although it's motion video with a changing viewpoint perspective, your own natural human head movements (the way you instinctively interact with the world around you) have no effect on the "fixed" perspective the director is showing you in the 3D movie. Without that sensory feedback loop you still remain disconnected from the truly convincing immersive experience.

Now, suppose there was a way of combining live head-tracking for your stereo headphones as you play Pianoteq in binaural mode, whereby the movements of your own head could be mapped and applied in real time to reposition the virtual "headphones" of Pianoteq's binaural sound recording 3D modelling of the acoustic environment. Then, I believe, the grand piano would "appear" before you as an almost tangible 3D sound source. As you lean in closer, things get louder, as you bend to the right or left, you hear the treble or bass keys more closely. You could even stand up from your stool and lean forward putting you head inside the lid, over the strings and hammers, like you can with a real grand piano (lid open) and hear their vivid brightness, feel their proximity.

I think the same user experience quantum leap up going from "fixed" stereoscopic 3D photos and video, to totally immersive motion-tracked 3D stereoscopic virtual reality, could be an equally impressive quantum leap forward in the "sonic virtual reality" and our holy grail quest of trying to reproduce the feeling and sonic experience of sitting in front of a Steinway D concert grand piano.
I now think, lack of head motion tracking, is probably the stumbling block why playing digital pianos always feels fake, whereas real acoustic pianos actually exist in front of you.
Pianists play with huge expression and body language, rolling their torso and shoulders around, wild head movements, etc. - we're hardly ever sitting still, static and locked in one place. Our ears therefore perceive an ever changing stereoscopic sound perspective, which even with binaural HRTF recordings is not captured by one stationary fixed mic position.

This idea is not easy to implement and test, because obviously the required hardware is not commonplace.
Beyerdynamic Headzone Pro was on manufacturer's attempt at head-tracking headphones, but I can't think of many others... (off the top of my head, haha)
...although millions of people (including pianists like me) already do own VR headsets like PSVR and the 3D stereo Playstation cameras which connect via USB. Maybe we can use or adapt the existing hardware somehow? Perhaps the host computer could use a 3D camera like that and track motion if people stuck a few high-vis stickers onto their headphones(!) or perhaps you could just use your PSVR or Oculus headset while you play Pianoteq, and to that end, it would be great to have a 3D rendered Steinway D image in front of you too!

I'm sure this is the way forward, folks.
There are people out there who do know a lot about VR and head tracking and the cameras and technology for VR. It wouldn't take much genius to apply the same tech to a stereo audio only experience, with motion tracking of the virtual binaural piano model that Pianoteq already has. The question is, can the Pianoteq 3D coordinate parameters be manipulated live in real-time without causing audible glitches? Does Pianoteq need to pause and recalculate a new mathematical model for each new 3D position? Or could it just track the motion (perhaps using some 3rd party hardware that could turn the motion tracking into a stream of MIDI data which feeds Pianoteq's parameters, and maybe update the position 25 times a second (every 40ms) like video 25fps can fool the eye, maybe 25fps positional data update can fool the ear too, and Pianoteq could somehow update the maths model every 40ms with new positional data, or smoothly morph between the data values?

I'm sure this is the way forward, somebody needs to look into it, please... it's gotta be worth someone building a prototype and seeing how it feels to play a virtual piano with Virtual Binural Reality.

propianist
Posted By: Gamma1734 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 06:28 PM
Sounds really quite interesting. I think it is a good idea, but as you said, it will be really difficult to get the right tools to do this. For example, what about people who play with speakers.
Or people who have very expensive headphones. I would like to test such a scenario to be able to decide what is more worth: Excellent sound quality or the feeling of being immersed. (Both would be perfect, obviously). I think the former is also really quite important. So if I could be immersed, if the headphones are bad it's still a question what feels better. I wouldn't want to exchange my Beyerdynamic T1 now so easily to be honest. And that's what Pianoteq would have also to consider. The question also is, how many people would use it. It seems like a good idea, but often technologies have been good ideas (only, sadly) and still died at some point because something else won.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 06:31 PM
I think 88 controls on a piano is quite enough. Beyond that ... if the makers can't set up the VST to sound reasonable with a preset or two or three then they haven't done their job properly.

If there need be more controls, then let the designers tweak them to produce a good result. Then freeze that result and call it a preset.
It's been done before. Less is better.

In general, engineers don't do a good job of meeting the users' needs. They need users (or in this case, artists) on the team to advise them.

I don't direct this point solely at Pianoteq. It's a general mantra of the usability community.
Posted By: JayKominek Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by propianist
This idea is not easy to implement and test, because obviously the required hardware is not commonplace.
Beyerdynamic Headzone Pro was on manufacturer's attempt at head-tracking headphones, but I can't think of many others... (off the top of my head, haha)

The hardware for determining head orientation is present in a number of recent Bose products, including the QC35s and the Frames. They've abandoned further audio "AR" development, though, and the SDK for making use of the abilities might not be available any more.
Posted By: David Lai Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 06:51 PM
I just tried the New York D, and compared with my Ivory American Concert D, I still prefer Ivory! In fact, at the Prelude preset, the synthesized sound of PianoTeq still exists. I'll just say, I wasn't convinced by how good it's sounding now -- the sampling is still much better and more inspiring to play.
propianist, I love your idea of head tracking! But to me, I'm not very much a moving person when sitting at the bench, and so I don't want my experience of the piano sound to be so unstable. Plus, I like playing the piano but hearing it as an audience member or someone close by, not as a player. But your idea might be able to work in 5 years, if not a decade. It's an expensive one, but very ambitious, and for those who need it, it would be a great plus!
Posted By: David Lai Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 07:06 PM
https://youtu.be/-kT_ukP-cOM

Above is a video on the latest version of PianoTeq I just found on YouTube.
Posted By: propianist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gamma1734
What about people who play with speakers?
I myself do.
But I am talking here specifically about Pianoteq's binaural mode with the virtual headphone position, for playing on headphones. If head-tracking positional data could be acquired by some 3rd party hardware (?) and sent back as MIDI parameter data into Pianoteq, live in realtime, then you could animate the virtual headphones orientation to follow your real physical head movements and you would hear a "virtual sonic binaural reality".

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
Or people who have very expensive headphones?
I myself do.
My planar magnetics weren't cheap!
However the emergence of a new breakthrough tech like VR headsets didn't frighten away everyone who already owned expensive 4K OLED televisions or home cinema projectors. In fact, those very people are the ones who are MOST keen to try out the new awesome VR experience, those are the people who are the real videophile enthusiasts!!!
Perhaps the only pianists who don't need to get excited about this are people who already own a real Steinway grand piano. Lucky gits.

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I would like to test such a scenario to be able to decide what is more worth: Excellent sound quality or the feeling of being immersed? (Both would be perfect, obviously.)
If the headphones are bad it's still a question what feels better. It seems like a good idea, but often technologies have been good ideas (only, sadly) and still died at some point because something else won.
Yep, I'm hearing that on FM...!
I know we've witnessed quadraphonic sound, ambisonics, 5.1 surround, ultra high sample rates, etc. all never really going mainstream, and some just die away. Hopefully compressed MP3 will die away as computers can download uncompressed WAV fast enough nowadays.

But if someone never tried these ideas, in the first place, progress would never happen.

As I said before, a lot of the VR tech and hardware already exists to make it happen for video AND audio, so all I'm asking for is an audio only solution to be adapted via MIDI or USB to Pianoteq.
I still think the user could wear a headband or an illuminated baseball cap or something which could be easily used with your existing headphones without needing to replace them...?

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I think 88 controls on a piano is quite enough. Beyond that ... if the makers can't set up the VST to sound reasonable with a preset or two or three then they haven't done their job properly.

Control parameters which act globally cannot apply the right amount of whatever to the treble notes without also messing up the bass notes - always a compromise. The 88 graphic slider approach allows user to draw a curve on the screen, which sculpts the given parameter to suit the desire. Yes the concept requires a little more intellectual understanding, but assuming you have this, it is 100% certain that 88 sliders is a better approach. That's why Pianoteq started doing it, and now others like VSL are doing it too. Offering a variable curve as a control rather than a fixed absolute value is essential to the success of the parameter. Where would you be without velocity curve graphs??? I remember when digital pianos had touch response HEAVY / MEDIUM / SOFT and that was crap. Surely you agree curves are progress. The 88 graphic slider is just that - a pictorial representation of a curve, which is quite appropriately quantized into 88 finite steps because there 88 keys to which the parameter is being applied.

Beyond that... one could have different 88 graphic slider parameters for different velocity ranges, with another slider that as you raise or lower it from 0-127 moves the 88 slider curve settings through their adjustments with respect to velocity.
Keep adding an extra dimension to the equation is a basic principle of advanced maths and science. eg. Einstein and Stephen Hawking didn't get where they got to by only considering the universe space-time in only 3 or 4 dimensions. You can keep adding complexity to a model if it does help beneficially. Nothing really new here.
I've just upgraded and I regret it. No audible difference for e-pianos, Steinway B still has pianiteqish character. NY Steinway D sounds nice though, but I still prefer sample VSTs.

I will keep using PTQ occasionally since it cuts through dense mixes well.
Posted By: Gamma1734 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 07:36 PM
The Demonstration video is terrible, I don't want to hear drums and other things, I want to hear the new sound! And when listening to the NY demos, to be honest, it sounds completely the same as the pianoteq sound I am used to. I can't hear at all any changes in the slightest form. Quite disappointed because I was really waiting for this version.
And I totally agree with the comment about presets; Sometimes I made videos clicking on "Home", "Prelude" or "Recording", in the naive belief that they are valid presets. Because actually, there are people how have no time after 12 hours of work to spend hours tweaking some knobs and just want to play!
Oh, but NO, people would comment "oh but that just sounds not good now because you use the wrong presets" or "oh that sounds bad because you have to tweak those knobs at least 14794 hours like I did". A preset which is specifically addressing "classical recordings"? Come on....
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 07:39 PM
@Gamma1734: There are volumes written on the subject of usability. You are just the latest victim of poor usability. It's a shame. frown
Posted By: Barde Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 08:05 PM
In version 6, I just pick Bechstein "Player" preset for playing, and "Venue" for recording, and call it a day. I don't tweak, both due to lack of time, but also because it would drive me crazy, to always try to find an optimal setting.

What do people usually tweak ? And is there a lot to obtain/improve by doing that ?
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 08:07 PM
I do have to admit the release with the intro video is poorly done. Version 4,5, and 6 it was about piano. What is this crap with drums and backing track.
Originally Posted by Barde
In version 6, I just pick Bechstein "Player" preset for playing, and "Venue" for recording, and call it a day. I don't tweak, both due to lack of time, but also because it would drive me crazy, to always try to find an optimal setting.

Yah, that's me too. The defaults for the Bechstein are awesome; I rarely use anything else.
Posted By: Granyala Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:22 PM
Same, I always used the "intimate" Steinway D setting and call it a day.
I do think I added a custom reverb impulse file though, because I wanted sth darker.

https://www.modartt.com/modeld

Listened a bit, doesn't sound too different to v6 to my ears.
Posted By: propianist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:31 PM
Gamma1734 and MacMacMac,

The problem with any factory presets is "you can't please everybody."

Suppose me or somebody "tweaked those knobs at least 14794 hours" and got something dialed in that sounded almost perfect to me... but that's only to me, with my playing style and touch, playing from my Kawai MP8 keyboard action, listening through my own custom loudspeakers in my room, or on my headphones... even if I uploaded my "almost perfect" preset settings online and shared it, how does it help you? - since you own a different keyboard model, different speakers in a different room, or different headphones, different listening volume, different ear pinna, different biological age, etc., you'll never objectively hear the same sound I am hearing. Everything would need to be further tweaked (by you) to suit your hardware / listening conditions and personal taste. That's why manufacturers can never make presets that everybody likes, or even hears the same way.

Even if I invited you to come to my house, sit behind my keyboard and try it for yourself, with everything dialed how I like it, listening as I do, at my preferred distance and SPL volume, from the same sweetspot in front of same speakers, chances are you may not like what you're hearing, if your musical tastes and piano ideals aren't exactly the same as mine. Maybe one person's ideal piano tone is a smooth lyrical romantic sound to play Chopin nocturnes, whereas another person's ideal piano tone is a bright, very attacking sound to blast out some Jerry Lee Lewis boogie woogie rock 'n' roll. For sure they would disagree about which preset sound was best.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:33 PM
Nothing for months, then 3 or 4 come along at once:
Kawai ES/DG
Korg Nautilus
Pianoteq 7

just like buses.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:49 PM
Well, unlike buses you can get all of them at the same time wink
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:50 PM
What's new in version 7

Morphing
The instruments XyloHarp, VibraDrum or GlockenTines certainly do not exist. These are however three of the many instruments you can create with the acoustic Morphing introduced in Pianoteq 7 (Standard/PRO). This innovative technology handles the morphing at the physical modelling level, providing stunning acoustic authenticity to instruments that never existed.

Layering
On popular demand, Modartt adds a new layering feature in Pianoteq 7 (Standard/PRO) allowing to mix several instruments, e.g. playing Bass Marimba in the low range, Xylophone in the upper range and mixing both together in the middle range. The difference between Morphing and Layering is that in the latter the two sounds are mixed together, whereas in Morphing the instrument Physics itself is being morphed.

Refined physical model
Modartt introduces a new refinement in its physical model: the double polarization. It consists in modelling string vibrations that can take any direction, e.g. parallel or perpendicular to the soundboard. The new physical model allows more complex tones to be produced, and as observed by a pianist, the sound becomes "three-dimensional". It also allows longer sustain, particularly in the bass range, with notes lasting up to a couple of minutes, just like on a real acoustic piano. All pianos in Pianoteq 7 are constructed and revoiced using this new physical model.

New grand piano modelled after a New York Steinway Model D
In collaboration with Steinway & Sons, Modartt has recorded a beautiful new Model D Concert Grand at the famous New York Steinway Hall. The reference piano was the very first produced of Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument — the Model D Spirio|r, and has been used by some of the most famous pianists in the world today. The new New York Steinway Model D for Pianoteq accompanies the existing Hamburg Steinway D and provides the famous Steinway concert piano sound with superb musical expression.

...

So, we need some experiments now to measure this longer sustain and to compare vs. 6 and 7 to see if this double polarization can be discerned.

I guess the morphing is a bit faddish; however, the layering is a development is it not?
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, unlike buses you can get all of them at the same time wink

Unless you're Doc-Ock, how you going to play them all together wink
Posted By: Tyr Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:51 PM
Tested it (got the Upgrade for free) and found it a bit more pleasant. It's a bit less "digital" and all the custom settings i got from the FXP Corner sound a bit more natural on Version 7.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Tested it (got the Upgrade for free) and found it a bit more pleasant. It's a bit less "digital" and all the custom settings i got from the FXP Corner sound a bit more natural on Version 7.

Are you able to record some 6 versus 7 for us?
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 10:12 PM
I have found the Steinway (either Hamburg or New York) improved compared to the Model D v6. It makes it more useful, as are the Bechstein, Petrof or the Steingraber. An huge improvement !
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 10:14 PM
That's right. You can't please everyone. That's life.

But with each of my favorite VSTs there are only a couple of adjustments. Done.
Not dozens. Not hundreds. And I'm very pleased.

Factory presets are not a problem. They're a blessing.
Originally Posted by propianist
The problem with any factory presets is "you can't please everybody."

Suppose me or somebody "tweaked those knobs at least 14794 hours" and got something dialed in that sounded almost perfect to me... but that's only to me, with my playing style and touch, playing from my Kawai MP8 keyboard action, listening through my own custom loudspeakers in my room, or on my headphones... even if I uploaded my "almost perfect" preset settings online and shared it, how does it help you? - since you own a different keyboard model, different speakers in a different room, or different headphones, different listening volume, different ear pinna, different biological age, etc., you'll never objectively hear the same sound I am hearing. Everything would need to be further tweaked (by you) to suit your hardware / listening conditions and personal taste. That's why manufacturers can never make presets that everybody likes, or even hears the same way.

Even if I invited you to come to my house, sit behind my keyboard and try it for yourself, with everything dialed how I like it, listening as I do, at my preferred distance and SPL volume, from the same sweetspot in front of same speakers, chances are you may not like what you're hearing, if your musical tastes and piano ideals aren't exactly the same as mine. Maybe one person's ideal piano tone is a smooth lyrical romantic sound to play Chopin nocturnes, whereas another person's ideal piano tone is a bright, very attacking sound to blast out some Jerry Lee Lewis boogie woogie rock 'n' roll. For sure they would disagree about which preset sound was best.
Chances are that I WOULD like what I'm hearing ... and so would lots of other people.

I'm guessing that you're a perfectionist.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That's right. You can't please everyone. That's life.

But with each of my favorite VSTs there are only a couple of adjustments. Done.
Not dozens. Not hundreds. And I'm very pleased.

Factory presets are not a problem. They're a blessing..

One of each is fine. Plus an extra one for that awesome recording I keep meaning to do . . . .
Posted By: propianist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
But with each of my favorite VSTs there are only a couple of adjustments. Done.
Not dozens. Not hundreds. And I'm very pleased.

I am surprised you are satisfied with only a couple of adjustments.
I own most of the piano VSTs that are out there and I seldom am satisfied with any of them. Seem to spend a lot of time fiddling with settings, but they fundamentally don't behave correctly.
Take Garritan CFX and all the VSL Synchrons, for instance. None of these have sympathetic string resonance working nicely, it always sounds utter rubbish.
Seriously look at EVERY single official Synchron piano YouTube demo that VSL has ever published... and ask yourself why they always have "Sympathetic" set to "minus infinity" dB...?

Likewise, pretty much all piano sample companies use FFT based noise reduction to "clean up" their raw samples (which IMHO are very noisy because they didn't choose wisely their microphones, preamps and A/D converters, nor understand the mathematics of gain, noise floor and headroom) and then all the resulting samples are really dull above 8kHz with no air, and you fight in vain to EQ some life into them but you're fighting a losing battle. Most sampled pianos are just all midrange. No treble air, no ultra low bass substance either. I know a Steinway doesn't sound like that in real life.

VSL record multisamples in a massive concert hall, from huge distances, which is about the worst thing you could do. No wonder they sound so heavily coloured. They should sample pianos inside an anechoic chamber with numerous close mic omnis.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 10:55 PM
I listened very carefully to the 6 and the 7, side to side, with the Steinway D Prelude on the 6 and the Hamburg Steinway D Prelude on the 7. They sound absolutely the same to me apart from a slightly powerful sustain in the 7. That is good because with pedal down now the resonances are slightly bigger, a little more similar to a real grand behavior, from the player perspective. But it's a very subtle change.

The "NY Steinway D Prelude" is a little more bright, round, and has even bigger sustain volume (compared to the Hamburg variant). I like it, but to me it looks just like a new preset. Honestly, I don't know if the bigger sustain is something that you could achieve by changing parameters on Pianoteq 6 or it's something that needs the new piano engine of the 7. But I have to say: I'm not impressed.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 10:57 PM
The beginning of the end (for samplers)!
Posted By: EssBrace Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 11:02 PM
Paid my 29 euros a few hours ago. I don't hear much, if anything, of an improvement. Bechstein Player position is still the best sounding preset and they may have alleviated a little bit of the massively exaggerated shrillness at the top of that preset.

I've been playing my own Bechstein quite a bit today and all the PianoTeq sounds are [insert derogatory term here] compared to a decent real piano. I just had a few minutes with Garritan CFX Lite and although I'm not a huge fan I do like it and I think it's vastly better than PT.

I do give credit to Modartt for their continued support for their product and as always, it worked flawlessly. I have to wonder if they've just reached the limit of what can be done with their present algorithms because the sonic realism just isn't advancing in a meaningful way - for me anyway.
Posted By: David Lai Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
The beginning of the end (for samplers)!

I respectfully disagree as a classical pianist. modeling, for the time being, is only fit for creating resonances.
Posted By: Harpuia Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 11:21 PM
Just listened to the demo for the new NY Steinway D here: https://www.modartt.com/modeld and I'm not impressed. The fundamental tone is still the same as Pianoteq 6 although I haven't tried it.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by propianist
I've just had a brilliant idea - Modartt developers, I hope you are reading this...!!!!!!!!

Many years ago, it was me, propianist, who suggested to Niclas Fogwall about making the parameter edits note by note using a "graphic equalizer" with 88 sliders, rather than single global control, and this idea was successfully adopted into Pianoteq Pro.

Here's my new idea...

The Sound Recording mode allows almost infinite variable positioning of the virtual mics, any position in virtual 3D space (X,Y,Z coordinates and aiming any orientation angle.)
More importantly, the same 3D freedom is allowed for the virtual "headphones" in binaural model.

Now, those of you who've ever tried a Sony PlayStation PSVR or Oculus Rift virtual reality headset, will know that you experience a much more convincing illusion of tangible 3D "reality" from the live head motion-tracking virtual reality experience, than you ever feel before from simply looking at flat "fixed" 3D stereoscopic photographs, or holograms, or even a "moving but still fixed" 3D stereoscopic video (like watching 3D Blu Ray) although it's motion video with a changing viewpoint perspective, your own natural human head movements (the way you instinctively interact with the world around you) have no effect on the "fixed" perspective the director is showing you in the 3D movie. Without that sensory feedback loop you still remain disconnected from the truly convincing immersive experience.

Now, suppose there was a way of combining live head-tracking for your stereo headphones as you play Pianoteq in binaural mode, whereby the movements of your own head could be mapped and applied in real time to reposition the virtual "headphones" of Pianoteq's binaural sound recording 3D modelling of the acoustic environment. Then, I believe, the grand piano would "appear" before you as an almost tangible 3D sound source. As you lean in closer, things get louder, as you bend to the right or left, you hear the treble or bass keys more closely. You could even stand up from your stool and lean forward putting you head inside the lid, over the strings and hammers, like you can with a real grand piano (lid open) and hear their vivid brightness, feel their proximity.

I think the same user experience quantum leap up going from "fixed" stereoscopic 3D photos and video, to totally immersive motion-tracked 3D stereoscopic virtual reality, could be an equally impressive quantum leap forward in the "sonic virtual reality" and our holy grail quest of trying to reproduce the feeling and sonic experience of sitting in front of a Steinway D concert grand piano.
I now think, lack of head motion tracking, is probably the stumbling block why playing digital pianos always feels fake, whereas real acoustic pianos actually exist in front of you.
Pianists play with huge expression and body language, rolling their torso and shoulders around, wild head movements, etc. - we're hardly ever sitting still, static and locked in one place. Our ears therefore perceive an ever changing stereoscopic sound perspective, which even with binaural HRTF recordings is not captured by one stationary fixed mic position.

This idea is not easy to implement and test, because obviously the required hardware is not commonplace.
Beyerdynamic Headzone Pro was on manufacturer's attempt at head-tracking headphones, but I can't think of many others... (off the top of my head, haha)
...although millions of people (including pianists like me) already do own VR headsets like PSVR and the 3D stereo Playstation cameras which connect via USB. Maybe we can use or adapt the existing hardware somehow? Perhaps the host computer could use a 3D camera like that and track motion if people stuck a few high-vis stickers onto their headphones(!) or perhaps you could just use your PSVR or Oculus headset while you play Pianoteq, and to that end, it would be great to have a 3D rendered Steinway D image in front of you too!

I'm sure this is the way forward, folks.
There are people out there who do know a lot about VR and head tracking and the cameras and technology for VR. It wouldn't take much genius to apply the same tech to a stereo audio only experience, with motion tracking of the virtual binaural piano model that Pianoteq already has. The question is, can the Pianoteq 3D coordinate parameters be manipulated live in real-time without causing audible glitches? Does Pianoteq need to pause and recalculate a new mathematical model for each new 3D position? Or could it just track the motion (perhaps using some 3rd party hardware that could turn the motion tracking into a stream of MIDI data which feeds Pianoteq's parameters, and maybe update the position 25 times a second (every 40ms) like video 25fps can fool the eye, maybe 25fps positional data update can fool the ear too, and Pianoteq could somehow update the maths model every 40ms with new positional data, or smoothly morph between the data values?

I'm sure this is the way forward, somebody needs to look into it, please... it's gotta be worth someone building a prototype and seeing how it feels to play a virtual piano with Virtual Binaural Reality.

propianist

1- VR is not there yet
2- Binaural has little application

The only place that VR can be useful at the moment with the current technology is in the 'you know its name' industry.
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/10/20 11:32 PM
My experience tonight... I have started playing the new Steinway D versions of PT7 using my trusty Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro, as I always do when playing at night. I have also tried several other pianos on PT7 (I have 8 of them). I have then changed to UVI Workstation with Modern U (VI Labs). After some time I have changed to Hybrid Custom (from UVI). Some songs later I have gone to Ravenscroft 275 (VI Labs) and then to Cantabile with the Steinway Model B (from Synthogy Studio Grands)

I have enjoyed quite a lot more the non-PT pianos, as happened with previous version. So, yes, PT7 may be better than PT6, but still, for me, is less enjoyable than sampled pianos, specially with headphones. Without them, I can enjoy PT a bit more.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 12:07 AM
I went back and forth between the Pianoteq Bechstein and the Galaxy Vintage D. And there's still no comparison.
The latter sounds like a piano. The former needs a visit from propianist ... and maybe 10,000 tweaks and adjustments will do some good.
Maybe. But I doubt it.
Originally Posted by David Lai
Originally Posted by Pete14
The beginning of the end (for samplers)!
I respectfully disagree as a classical pianist. modeling, for the time being, is only fit for creating resonances.
I'll try some of the other pianos tomorrow. (Day off! Veterans Day!)
Posted By: Gamma1734 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 12:57 AM
I have to really say now that I don't understand why the only piano sound related improvement is such a minor thing nobody apparently can really hear. I was expecting Version 7 to be a true competitor to sampled pianos, where everyone who is still sceptical could acknowledge "hm.. it still sounds pianoteq, but so good in its own wonderful way!". But nope. Just the same technique and sound which has been used for years. Maybe their method has nothing to squeeze out of it anymore? PC's are so crazy fast nowadays? That's all that's possible? Out of ideas for new algorithms? I would have loved to be amazed by a new sound...
Also great to read some presets you people use and seem to work fine, I'm quite overwhelmed by the amount of presets and don't have time to listen to all and decide which are good and usable or not.
Posted By: robinlb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by propianist
The problem with any factory presets is "you can't please everybody."

Suppose me or somebody "tweaked those knobs at least 14794 hours" and got something dialed in that sounded almost perfect to me... but that's only to me, with my playing style and touch, playing from my Kawai MP8 keyboard action, listening through my own custom loudspeakers in my room, or on my headphones... even if I uploaded my "almost perfect" preset settings online and shared it, how does it help you? - since you own a different keyboard model, different speakers in a different room, or different headphones, different listening volume, different ear pinna, different biological age, etc., you'll never objectively hear the same sound I am hearing. Everything would need to be further tweaked (by you) to suit your hardware / listening conditions and personal taste. That's why manufacturers can never make presets that everybody likes, or even hears the same way.

Totally agree. For me, I need to tweak any VSTs in the process of using it, whether it is sampling or modeling, and gradually make it reach my satisfaction.
Whether it is VSL or PTQ, I will start from an original preset and slowly adjust them. It may take months to perfect them, but this does not affect my freedom and mood to play every day.
Cuz the preset is only the moderate answer given by one manufacturer, the hardware and software and usage preferences of each person vary greatly, and same on understanding and experience of a certain model of piano. So there is no universal preset for everyone. Ptq is perfect than samplings for audio system with soundboard transducers I think, at least for me.

At the same time, I even think there should be a new profession called DP tuner in future. Unlike the traditional AP tuner, he should be familiar with the mainstream VSTs, familiar with the audio system, but also very familiar with the hardware knowledge and sound characteristics of various APs.
According to your needs and his professional experience, he will help you to complete the correct tweaking on your system. Cuz you may not know what the right Steinway or Bechstein voice is. grin
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 03:53 AM
I absolutely love the morphing (and layering) they added in Standard and Pro.
Try joining the new NY Steinway with a harpsichord and you’ll know what I mean.
I guess this is only achievable at this level with modeling. Simply wonderful.
Posted By: qpalzm Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:58 AM
I just picked it up. Not too different from 6, but the NY Steinway D will be fun to play around with.

I tried sampled VSTs years ago and they didn't feel like they responded realistically when I played them. The transition between samples as I increased velocity was very noticeable.

So I've stuck with Pianoteq and have been happy with it.
Posted By: Chrispy Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:05 AM
Bongo Simulator 7 laugh
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Bongo Simulator 7 laugh

grin
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 07:28 AM
Where’s that guy? I forgot his alias... The one who started that bongo thing 😀 He was a huge PT proponent.
Posted By: Keybender Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 07:44 AM
Here's my quick 2 minutes comparison. I think it highlights nicely how it is noticeably different and better but won't convice many people who do not like Pianoteq at all for whatever reason.
https://youtu.be/oBMwI-uGV_I
Posted By: Johnny English Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 07:50 AM
After seeing this thread, I went ahead and spent the money to upgrade.... It’s still not as nice as a sampled piano unfortunately but it is incrementally better.

That said, I do prefer it over 6 and it still allows me play without crackles. My sample library is too much of a workload for my computer and I’m always nervous when playing a sampled piano and it interferes with my expressiveness. Any improvement is a welcome one so I am not going to complain. I’d say it’s now, if not before, the best modeled library out there.
Posted By: Kawai James Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Keybender
Here's my quick 2 minutes comparison. I think it highlights nicely how it is noticeably different and better but won't convice many people who do not like Pianoteq at all for whatever reason.
https://youtu.be/oBMwI-uGV_I

Nicely done.

I guessed correctly. wink
Originally Posted by Keybender
Here's my quick 2 minutes comparison.

In the first clips I found version 7 to sound more like a piano. On the second clips I didn't pay enough attention, I suppose and I was also wondering if A is always the same version and B the other. And then the clips were over. But I suppose the same difference is there now that I know which one is which.

I don't find words to describe the difference. But it's there.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 08:23 AM
I hear a difference between 6 and 7 with the model D (an important enhancement), but not with other pianos.

As a stage user, I am not concerned by the piano morphing.
Posted By: Keybender Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I hear a difference between 6 and 7 with the model D (an important enhancement), but not with other pianos.

As a stage user, I am not concerned by the piano morphing.

I also find it clearly audible with the Blüthner which was particularly plasticky before.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 08:58 AM
Seems that Pianoteq is still splits the minds. I got the upgrade for free and did a few tests, but for my pianos it's so far hard to tell a difference. For your convinience I exported the whole Schubert Sonata in B-Flat-Major first with Pianoteq 6 and then 7. I used the DG Bechstein Recording 3 preset on both and didn't change anything.

Personally I think P7 sounds a little "better" especially in the loud parts with more treble notes, but decide for yourself:

P6:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18vOLV37swm36hh1PrE-iJ1gSN5A_wHQL/view?usp=sharing

P7:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EmUg8ZA5_1ik508XG--s72V4IbG4MiV9/view?usp=sharing

Overall I would say soundwise the changes are small, but noticable. The new options for morphing and layering are a big deal though (at least for me). I didn't have any issue with the sound to begin with though. I would say: If you hated it before, you will hate it now. If you liked it before, you will still like it now.

(The MIDI for the Sonata is from the Piano E Competion files but unfortuately I don't know by who anymore :()
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Seems that Pianoteq is still splits the minds. I got the upgrade for free and did a few tests, but for my pianos it's so far hard to tell a difference. For your convinience I exported the whole Schubert Sonata in B-Flat-Major first with Pianoteq 6 and then 7. I used the DG Bechstein Recording 3 preset on both and didn't change anything.

Personally I think P7 sounds a little "better" especially in the loud parts with more treble notes, but decide for yourself:

P6:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18vOLV37swm36hh1PrE-iJ1gSN5A_wHQL/view?usp=sharing

P7:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EmUg8ZA5_1ik508XG--s72V4IbG4MiV9/view?usp=sharing

Overall I would say soundwise the changes are small, but noticable. The new options for morphing and layering are a big deal though (at least for me). I didn't have any issue with the sound to begin with though. I would say: If you hated it before, you will hate it now. If you liked it before, you will still like it now.

(The MIDI for the Sonata is from the Piano E Competion files but unfortuately I don't know by who anymore :()

How many layers does it do?
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
How many layers does it do?

Three, and morphing & layering are one or the other. So either morphing or layering. The morphing feature is more impressive to me though, layering is pretty standard, but creating a hybrid between a piano and a harpsichord (or anything) is interesting.

Edit: No wait it isn't! You can morph something, flatten it, then layer it, or morph it again. Damn, that is a powerful feature, I have to say. The morph between an electric piano and a DG Bechstein for example sounds really sweet. Can't wait to play around more with that.
Posted By: Svennig Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 09:59 AM
OK a few hours playing yesterday and another today. DT770s off a Scarlett 4i4. Some opinions:

1) The Bechstein is still very much the best on offer.

2) I had really hoped they'd fix the Steinway Ds in 7, but they really haven't. I'm still open to it being huge user error on my part, but they just sound so muddled. The best way I can describe it is that it's as if I was listening to the piano from the corridoor outside the room, and with a wollen jumper around my head. It's not crisp and clear, it's very damped - muted highs, messy mids - and very muddy; I constantly feel like I want to get closer to the piano, open the lid, and take the blanket out.
Posted By: giu Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:01 AM
Keybender: thanks for the clips. I guessed correctly.

I have installed it myself and the NY Steinway D (Classical) is better to my ears than any of the previous Steinway D presets. Blüthner is also better. I am not sure I can hear a difference with the Bechstein. Overall it's improved (significantly to my ears) but it still lacks the body/resonance of the best VSTs (Vienna VSL and Garritan CFX in my case). I must say that your bass equalization improves that relative to my attempts.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by Doug M.
How many layers does it do?

Three, and morphing & layering are one or the other. So either morphing or layering. The morphing feature is more impressive to me though, layering is pretty standard, but creating a hybrid between a piano and a harpsichord (or anything) is interesting.

Edit: No wait it isn't! You can morph something, flatten it, then layer it, or morph it again. Damn, that is a powerful feature, I have to say. The morph between an electric piano and a DG Bechstein for example sounds really sweet. Can't wait to play around more with that.

I think from PT's POV, adding features like this is probably bigger thing than sound update. One of the benefits of modern sampling is the ability to create huge sound combinations of 4 to 8 layers on many boards.

Also, seemless sound switching is a massive bonus for musicians handling live sets where glitches would be very noticeable (presumably why 1970's musicians had racks of keyboards).

If Pianoteq can keep improving the layering functionality and keep adding more and more instruments, I can see a time where they could potentially offer a fully modeled solution - either built into a board, or released as a custom sound module.

In some ways, the drive to evolve the sound quality is a limited strategy in terms of scope (and maybe the resources required to boost significant improvements won't be covered by extra sales), but creating more sounds and replicating conventional digital piano functions would eventually pay off, if the available market increases.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:15 AM
This is exactly the impression I've had for years, at least as far back as version 4 ...
Originally Posted by Svennig
The best way I can describe it is that it's as if I was listening to the piano from the corridoor outside the room, and with a woolen jumper around my head.
... although I've described in reverse. That is, it's as though the piano were in the corridor or the next room.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I think from PT's POV, adding features like this is probably bigger thing than sound update. One of the benefits of modern sampling is the ability to create huge sound combinations of 4 to 8 layers on many boards.

Also, seemless sound switching is a massive bonus for musicians handling live sets where glitches would be very noticeable (presumably why 1970's musicians had racks of keyboards).

If Pianoteq can keep improving the layering functionality and keep adding more and more instruments, I can see a time where they could potentially offer a fully modeled solution - either built into a board, or released as a custom sound module.

In some ways, the drive to evolve the sound quality is a limited strategy in terms of scope (and maybe the resources required to boost significant improvements won't be covered by extra sales), but creating more sounds and replicating conventional digital piano functions would eventually pay off, if the available market increases.

The thing is: the people who don't like the sound of Pianoteq are probably not going to start to like it, no matter what they do. From a business perspective it's better to focus on the people who like the sound anyway and give them more options to use the product then a Don Quichotte style quest against personal taste.

As for soundquality, keeping the piano brands happy is probably more important then the customers, because more people will be brought in by the Steinway name then the actual sound of the piano.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:34 AM
People who love Pianoteq have been swearing it's the most realistic piano emulation ever in this universe since at least version 3 or 4 (some from the very beginning). There's nothing to improve for them.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:45 AM
Not all people are either full-hater or full-lover.

I have found that the Bechstein, Petrof, Steingraeber were quite well done and it was a pity the Model D was not at this level. Now it is fixed.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I think from PT's POV, adding features like this is probably bigger thing than sound update. One of the benefits of modern sampling is the ability to create huge sound combinations of 4 to 8 layers on many boards.

Also, seemless sound switching is a massive bonus for musicians handling live sets where glitches would be very noticeable (presumably why 1970's musicians had racks of keyboards).

If Pianoteq can keep improving the layering functionality and keep adding more and more instruments, I can see a time where they could potentially offer a fully modeled solution - either built into a board, or released as a custom sound module.

In some ways, the drive to evolve the sound quality is a limited strategy in terms of scope (and maybe the resources required to boost significant improvements won't be covered by extra sales), but creating more sounds and replicating conventional digital piano functions would eventually pay off, if the available market increases.

The thing is: the people who don't like the sound of Pianoteq are probably not going to start to like it, no matter what they do. From a business perspective it's better to focus on the people who like the sound anyway and give them more options to use the product then a Don Quichotte style quest against personal taste.

As for soundquality, keeping the piano brands happy is probably more important then the customers, because more people will be brought in by the Steinway name then the actual sound of the piano.

That's an interesting point.

Thing that strikes me about models: they are always limited by the variables encompassed, and more importantly, those that aren't. Also, when you make a model and it's awful, would you not then ask: "What tweaks can we to make to get the best out of it?"

So maybe what you are playing is a compromised concept, and for now we should accept it for what advantages it gives.

You're going to notice the glitches in the matrix so to speak. Sampling experts have had decades more experience in developing techniques to cover up those inconsistencies---both in sound replication and expressive control---but as soon as you hear a real acoustic piano, IMO even the best VST sounds off.

One of the best models in existence is the standard model for particle physics (in regards to what it does explain), yet there are so many things it gets wrong, and the search for theory tweaks or replacement theories is long and exhausting. It's not like any up coming update to this model is going to resolve all its issues either.

Naturally, modelling is theoretically more promising than sampling ie, when researchers better define the system they are studying to the extent that it closely matches reality. It could be a long long time before that happens.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Not all people are either full-hater or full-lover.

Sure, I agree. But there's no homogenous dispersion either smile People still tend to be siloed into two camps. Those who generally like it and use it on regular basis. And those who generally dislike it and tend to not use it, despite giving it chances with each new version.

I don't think we've seen (m)any converts over time.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Not all people are either full-hater or full-lover.

Sure, I agree. But there's no homogenous dispersion either smile People still tend to be siloed into two camps. Those who generally like it and use it on regular basis. And those who generally dislike it and tend to not use it, despite giving it chances with each new version.

I don't think we've seen (m)any converts over time.

In terms of converts, does PT offer a genuine advantage regarding replicating the acoustic piano. I've heard folk say that they find it harder to play due to if being more dynamically discerning. If that's so, maybe it's a better practice tool than a performance tool.
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Not all people are either full-hater or full-lover.

Sure, I agree. But there's no homogenous dispersion either smile People still tend to be siloed into two camps. Those who generally like it and use it on regular basis. And those who generally dislike it and tend to not use it, despite giving it chances with each new version.

I don't think we've seen (m)any converts over time.
I would be such a convert though. I tried pianoteq around version 4 (I think) and didn’t get along with the sound. When version 6 was released I gave it a new shot and I really connected with the Steinway B, but that was also really the only instrument in pianoteq I liked. After that I’ve purchased the Steingraeber and the Petroff and I like them too, especially the Steingraeber. Now I mostly use pianoteq but also use the sampled internal sound of the N1 which I also like (except for the string resonance behaviour) The bottom line is however that it gives me the opportunity to switch between some great, completely different instruments in a quite convincing way. I’ve yet to try pianoteq 7.
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 11:51 AM
A nice (and as always on Guy's channel, funny) real-world use of Pianoteq 7:

Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Not all people are either full-hater or full-lover.

Sure, I agree. But there's no homogenous dispersion either smile People still tend to be siloed into two camps. Those who generally like it and use it on regular basis. And those who generally dislike it and tend to not use it, despite giving it chances with each new version.

I don't think we've seen (m)any converts over time.
I would be such a convert though. I tried pianoteq around version 4 (I think) and didn’t get along with the sound. When version 6 was released I gave it a new shot and I really connected with the Steinway B, but that was also really the only instrument in pianoteq I liked. After that I’ve purchased the Steingraeber and the Petroff and I like them too, especially the Steingraeber. Now I mostly use pianoteq but also use the sampled internal sound of the N1 which I also like (except for the string resonance behaviour) The bottom line is however that it gives me the opportunity to switch between some great, completely different instruments in a quite convincing way. I’ve yet to try pianoteq 7.

I recall reading someone mixed PT with their N1X internal CFX and felt the resulting combo was superior to either on their own.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 01:49 PM
Are you saying the result was more than the sum of its parts?
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 02:14 PM
Well, a sampled piano sounds like a recorded piano but doesn’t really play like one. Pianoteq does.
If I want a recorded piano, I buy a cd.
And I have dozens of sampled ones wink
Posted By: pianistje Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If Pianoteq switched to sampling then it would sound like a piano ... and they've consistently shown that they don't want that!
Hahaha quote of the month !!
Posted By: klausi6 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 02:50 PM
they have released bug fix 7.0.1
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
People who love Pianoteq have been swearing it's the most realistic piano emulation ever in this universe since at least version 3 or 4 (some from the very beginning). There's nothing to improve for them.

I thought it was good but I couldn't get on board until version 5 came out. That was the one that got me. Not perfect but IMO I liked where they were going even if it is a slow pace. I think it is a great practice tool and super fast loading.
Posted By: pianogabe Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 03:27 PM
I agree with others here that the update is an improvement over the previous version, but more incremental than saltatory. Certainly worth the 29 euros for updating. I will continue to use my sampled Bechstein Digital Grand as main VST, but it is nice to change once in a while for variation.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by pianogabe
it is nice to change once in a while for variation.

And Pianoteq has some model which are not sampled elsewhere (Petrof, Steingraberg...)
Posted By: robinlb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Fleer
Well, a sampled piano sounds like a recorded piano but doesn’t really play like one. Pianoteq does.
If I want a recorded piano, I buy a cd.
And I have dozens of sampled ones wink

Yes, it is true. While we can't say how much the piano in PTQ really sounds like an AP, at least PTQ makes your DP feel like a real electro-acoustic instrument, rather than operating a CD player with a keyboard input.
I remember someone ever complained that the sound of PTQ was not clear or direct, and I think that was because Mics were not set up properly. Put mics close to the strings and soundboard to make sure that the sound was as direct as possible. Of course, adding a room mic and reverb a little is necessary.

In my opinion, PTQ is not really a VST software, but more like a piano editing and creation tool. All its presets are just a basic starting point, and the rest is up to the players to develop by themselves.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by pianogabe
it is nice to change once in a while for variation.

And Pianoteq has some model which are not sampled elsewhere (Petrof, Steingraberg...)

Yep. It seems no matter what Modartt does there will always be people on the negative wagon. Do I think it is the holy grail of pianos, no but it is pretty darn good for my needs. Now I just need to find more time in the day for this thing called piano. Why does life have to get in the way.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
Yep. It seems no matter what Modartt does there will always be people on the negative wagon.
People are like that. I am one of these people who, when they don't like something, would be triggered to respond negatively whenever someone praises the product too much (IMO). I know how that type of personality might be annoying, since I've received the same type of comments towards Cybrid which is a hobby project smile I mean, I could do whatever I decided to do with that project. I could have just cr*pped on top of the action and be happy about it. I'm not selling it, not advertising it. But yeah, it's a project I finished for just myself, yet there were people (not on this forum) who mocked it and tried to undermine my achievement in any possible way smile And I was perfectly OK with that! People are like that.
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:42 PM
In my case, I enjoy PTQ mostly with speakers as, when using headphones, I soon get tired from the metallic sound it generates on higher registers... I wonder if someone knows which parameter could help lowering that harsh (in my opinion / configuration) tone. I have plenty of PTQ pianos and all suffer more or less of same problem.

Using the same exact setup along plenty of other VSTs (sampled), that problem vanishes, so I know it is not a matter of my headphones or the rest of the audio chain. Or myself wink
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by robinlb
In my opinion, PTQ is not really a VST software, but more like a piano editing and creation tool. All its presets are just a basic starting point, and the rest is up to the players to develop by themselves.
You mean not really a virtual piano.

A VST software only means a software which is compatible with the VST interface defined by Steinberg. VST softwares include many sampled instruments, modelled instruments, artificial instruments (FM, analog synth, real instrument heavily tweaked...)

Note : if you like tweaked piano, there is Addictive Key which can only use ffff samples, or pppp samples and all combinations (including the full range pppp-ffff). One of its presets doesn’t seem to be a piano !
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
In my case, I enjoy PTQ mostly with speakers as, when using headphones, I soon get tired from the metallic sound it generates on higher registers... I wonder if someone knows which parameter could help lowering that harsh (in my opinion / configuration) tone. I have plenty of PTQ pianos and all suffer more or less of same problem.

Using the same exact setup along plenty of other VSTs (sampled), that problem vanishes, so I know it is not a matter of my headphones or the rest of the audio chain. Or myself wink

I've read a 2019 post on the PT forum basically talking about how you need to set up the EQ and reverb settings differently for speakers and headphone use.

Check out the reply by jcfelice88keys at 11-01-2020 16:21

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=7050
Posted By: robinlb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
You mean not really a virtual piano.

A VST software only means a software which is compatible with the VST interface defined by Steinberg. VST softwares include many sampled instruments, modelled instruments, artificial instruments (FM, analog synth, real instrument heavily tweaked...)

Note : if you like tweaked piano, there is Addictive Key which can only use ffff samples, or pppp samples and all combinations (including the full range pppp-ffff). One of its presets doesn’t seem to be a piano !

You know what I mean, I mean the other VSTs.
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
In my case, I enjoy PTQ mostly with speakers as, when using headphones, I soon get tired from the metallic sound it generates on higher registers... I wonder if someone knows which parameter could help lowering that harsh (in my opinion / configuration) tone.

The metallic sound is particularly present at large velocities, and therefore it can be avoided via the velocity curve. Normally, the velocity curve stretches from the lower left to the upper right corner. If instead it is made to reach the right side of the diagram at a velocity somewhat lower (maybe around MIDI level 100). the metallic timbre associated with the largest velocities is avoided. This lowers the dynamic range, but there is a slider for that. smile
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:32 PM
And what exactly is wrong with a little ‘metal’?

I love me a little metallic around the edges (upper velocities)!
Posted By: MusicalDudeist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:43 PM
Well, I'll take it. I bought it recently enough for it to be free and it's my favorite instrument VST. I like the idea of the morphing and layering as well. So far, all and all, an improvement.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
And what exactly is wrong with a little ‘metal’?

I love me a little metallic around the edges (upper velocities)!

I try to get the metal fillingin my teeth to match the metallic sound for this great sounding effect smile

The vibrations are wonderful!
Posted By: oswaldpeters Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:49 PM
I've been a long time supporter of Pianoteq - and have used v6.x.x almost exclusively as a practice instrument. It has been superb. I've upgraded to version 7 and I have a few observations...

New York Steinway D: This instrument feels mostly like a real step up in terms of tone and realism to the sound - but it's like an unfinished product. I've been playing with it all day, I've set up my velocity curve to my DP action, but in the mid-section the sound feels very distant / muffled. There are also some REALLY unpleasant harmonics on some notes that seem to drown everything else out. This happens for me mostly with C6 on this instrument, and it physically hurts! As the note blooms it just becomes harsh, horrible and overpowering. I can sort-of get round it with a custom microphone configuration, but it makes the instrument unplayable on 'binaural' mode - which is what I use 99% of the time. It's such a shame, as this particular instrument shows a lot of promise of a potential step up in terms of tone / tone development.

Bechstein D282: This has been my go-to instrument ever since it came out a couple of years ago - it's exactly the tone and response I like. It feels like this instrument has been totally ruined in version 7 of PianoTeq. I have a similar issue with harshness in the treble, and this time it's G6 that is giving me issues, but the bloom on most of the treble register makes it sound really horrible in general. I still have v6.x.x installed, and this plays just how I like - so it's not my ears!

I'm not a sound engineer, I don't understand how to tweak Pianoteq sufficiently to get rid of the characteristics I'm coming up against - I'm a pianist and I just want it to sound like it did before...
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 05:50 PM
Skip the "little metal". Give me some "heavy metal". And I don't mean lead. smile
Originally Posted by Pete14
And what exactly is wrong with a little ‘metal’?
I love me a little metallic around the edges (upper velocities)!
Posted By: Svennig Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This is exactly the impression I've had for years, at least as far back as version 4 ...

I've played around some more, and I can make it better-ish. A little more hardness on the hammers, a little less string resonance, and a brighter EQ. But the problem is now the Steinway D sounds like something I recorded outside the room and tried to fix it in post.

I do think they've made the Bechstein even better however; feels more vibrant.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
Bechstein D282: this time it's G6 that is giving me issues, but the bloom on most of the treble register makes it sound really horrible in general. I still have v6.x.x installed, and this plays just how I like - so it's not my ears!

I'm not a sound engineer, I don't understand how to tweak Pianoteq sufficiently to get rid of the characteristics I'm coming up against - I'm a pianist and I just want it to sound like it did before...

If you have a digital with volume regulation on all 88 keys, you may be able to nullify that effect a little. Not an ideal solution is it?
Posted By: Granyala Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 08:55 PM
Grabbed v7. I like the changes to "my" D, even if they are not earth shattering.

For 29€ it was basically a no-brainer, since I use the software every other day.
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 09:47 PM
Here's a video of Phil Best playing the New York Steinway D:
https://youtu.be/EdRTEupMKwA
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 09:53 PM
Funny how so many ‘round here hate Pianoteq, yet here they are constantly talking ‘bout Pianoteq!

I ask the “haters”, is this just the macho-man thing to say, “I hate Pianoteq”, but then quietly, when no one’s watching, Pianoteq is blasting through your speakers and you’re dancing like Donna Summer to “She Works Hard For The Money”?

https://youtu.be/tuUEpbGVV2Y


I’ve been conducting a little experiment where I ask male participants if they like Donna Summer, and before I even finish the question they’re acting all offended that I would even ponder the possibility of Donna, yet when I subliminally start humming “Hot Stuff” they unconsciously start tapping their feet!

So I say, if you work hard for the money, why spend it on samplers simply to show the world you’re a macho-man?

Come out of the closet, now, and show your true love for Pianoteq!
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Funny how so many ‘round here hate Pianoteq, yet here they are constantly talking ‘bout Pianoteq!

I ask the “haters”, is this just the macho-man thing to say, “I hate Pianoteq”, but then quietly, when no one’s watching, Pianoteq is blasting through your speakers and you’re dancing like Donna Summer to “She Works Hard For The Money”?

https://youtu.be/tuUEpbGVV2Y

I don't hate it, but everytime I try to like it it just reminds me of this cool song and I end up looking it up on YouTube to swing my hips to.

https://youtu.be/vJMLJVha5sw
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:10 PM
Give in to your instincts, Pianoteq awaits with open and forgiving arms!

We love all, even the haters, here @Pianoteq, so go on, hot stuff, ditch that there sampler!


https://youtu.be/nYMeJSehCe4
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:21 PM
Dancing like Donna Summer ? You mean https://youtu.be/gV76MzR-p_E

I would say I like Pianoteq, I think they do something impressive since to piano sound complexity is huge. But I have tried it once more for 1 hour today. In the first time I won’t say it is too synthetic, but in the long term, I would say there is something missing without knowing which word to put on. I think I will go back to my samples.

A typical sampled piano is between 100€ to 150€ (Ivory, Embertone Walker Lite & Full, Bechstein DG Essentials, Galaxy Lite, Native Instruments, Galaxy, Truekeys), and sometimes more than 200€ (Galaxy Full, Bechstein DG, VSL). Not a big deal compared to a digital piano or a good controller. (But if we want to have a big choice, the 50€ Pianoteq instruments are cheap).

The main issue about samples is the required SSD and memory. My 8GB are limited and I must be careful not to have other greedy programs launched (Firefox...)
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Give in to your instincts, Pianoteq awaits with open and forgiving arms!

We love all, even the haters, here @Pianoteq, so go on, hot stuff, ditch that there sampler!


https://youtu.be/nYMeJSehCe4

what about forgiving fingers and we must not forget about the thumbs
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 10:45 PM
You look to the left, like Carlton, you look to the right, and it seems like there’s no one in site; you let loose and dance like it’s your last dance, but then you quickly realize there’s someone staring down your back!

https://youtu.be/Lxqa2Haf8lo

Is this how you haters want to live? Always going out of your way to hide your true feelings for Pianoteq, and sneaking around the house for one more secret dance?
Well, that is no way to live your life; so once again, come out and dance with us like the whole world is watching and you just don’t give a damn!
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 11:10 PM
They are already on 7.0.2 version... But something is wrong with U4 model. Sustain pedal noise is missing. Not that I really miss it, I tend to remove or lower quite a bit, but now it is just gone grin
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/11/20 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by Pete14
Give in to your instincts, Pianoteq awaits with open and forgiving arms!

We love all, even the haters, here @Pianoteq, so go on, hot stuff, ditch that there sampler!


https://youtu.be/nYMeJSehCe4

what about forgiving fingers and we must not forget about the thumbs

Interesting is the fact that wi my dodgy fingers playing me up today; (I blame the Government entirely) I find Pianoteq far easier to play than the Yamaha native voices.
I am thus stuck with Pianoteq! I suspect it feels like a real piano upright to play, particularlky with the default vel curve . ..
Posted By: Granyala Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 05:07 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Definitely not my kind of music but it sounds pretty old. laugh
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:07 AM
So I tried it out in more detail yesterday. When you play them side by side there is a very noticable difference vorm 6 > 7. All the pianos seem to have more "oompfh" in the low end now, especially the Bechstein. If you compare them side by side, v6 sounds a lot "flatter" and v7 as a richer more vibrant tone. This is also true for the U4 that has been significantly improved in my opinion.

What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano. While it sounds good on the Bechstein, it sounds strange on the Model B for example, so there have defenitly been some changes under the hood. I'll have to experiment with that a little more. A bunch of user FXP that I have, like the "Nord white Grand" sound absolutly fantastic now though, will have to change what they tweaked there.

The metallic overtones that PT tends to have in the treble notes are still there though, but you can reduce those greatly by tweaking the velocity curve. So if you biggest gripe was that PT doesn't have enough power in the low end, you will probably be happy now. If you can't stand the metallic overtones, you are still going to hate it.
Posted By: klausi6 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano. While it sounds good on the Bechstein, it sounds strange on the Model B for example, so there have defenitly been some changes under the hood. I'll have to experiment with that a little more. A bunch of user FXP that I have, like the "Nord white Grand" sound absolutly fantastic now though, will have to change what they tweaked there.

I can confirm this. It seems that the default velocity curve sometimes works better.

So , for me, the Global velocity curve makes no sense.
Originally Posted by FloRi89
What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano.

I have made the same discovery. My normal velocity curves "bend upwards", but apparently I now have to flatten them somewhat, bringing them a bit closer to the straight line.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by FloRi89
What I noticed though is that my default velocity courve doesn't work anymore for every piano.

I have made the same discovery. My normal velocity curves "bend upwards", but apparently I now have to flatten them somewhat, bringing them a bit closer to the straight line.

Mine is usually more of a "hard" curve (bending downwards), but that doesn't work at all anymore on the Model B for example. I wonder what they changed there, but for me the same, the global curve doesn't work for me.
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:33 AM
I am curious about how you find those differences between 6 and 7. I installed yesterday another first, Cubase Pro 11. Well, what best to check it than the brand new PTQ 7!. So I inserted an instrument track for each and put an insert, on the output, of the very advanced new metering system than Cubase 11 incorporates. I also put on my headphones. I used the VPC1 for the tests.

So, selecting on PTQ 6 and 7 the exact same preset, for several different pianos, I was able to instantly switch and see (spectrum and level wise) the differences (comparing notes, triads, with and without pedal)... which were completely absent!. So, please, could someone explain the exact setup used to find those big differences?. I am truly puzzled.

To be honest I found one difference: the U4 pedal noise was missing on PTQ7. I guess that is a minor bug, as it was OK for the rest of pianos.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Pete14
Definitely not my kind of music but it sounds pretty old. laugh

It is old, but not on the grand scale of things---people here love Chopin 😂

Besides, if you are going to play Donna Summer songs on Pianoteq, it would need to be one with a piano track, such as this 17 minute monstrosity by Jimmy Web

Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 10:56 AM
.....and the denial continues........

It’s okay, you guys; I, too, once denied my preference for Donna Summer (and Pianoteq), till someone special opened my eyes and showed me that there was nothing to be ashamed of; that dancing to Donna’s “Hot Stuff” did not make me any less of a macho-man!

So go ahead, macho-men, dance to Donna and play Pianoteq to your heart’s content; it’s okay; ye can come out of the closet now, and I promise, society shall not condemn ye!
Posted By: propianist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by propianist
I've just had a brilliant idea - Modartt developers, I hope you are reading this...!!!!!!!!

Many years ago, it was me, propianist, who suggested to Niclas Fogwall about making the parameter edits note by note using a "graphic equalizer" with 88 sliders, rather than single global control, and this idea was successfully adopted into Pianoteq Pro.

Here's my new idea...

The Sound Recording mode allows almost infinite variable positioning of the virtual mics, any position in virtual 3D space (X,Y,Z coordinates and aiming any orientation angle.)
More importantly, the same 3D freedom is allowed for the virtual "headphones" in binaural model.

Now, those of you who've ever tried a Sony PlayStation PSVR or Oculus Rift virtual reality headset, will know that you experience a much more convincing illusion of tangible 3D "reality" from the live head motion-tracking virtual reality experience, than you ever feel before from simply looking at flat "fixed" 3D stereoscopic photographs, or holograms, or even a "moving but still fixed" 3D stereoscopic video (like watching 3D Blu Ray) although it's motion video with a changing viewpoint perspective, your own natural human head movements (the way you instinctively interact with the world around you) have no effect on the "fixed" perspective the director is showing you in the 3D movie. Without that sensory feedback loop you still remain disconnected from the truly convincing immersive experience.

Now, suppose there was a way of combining live head-tracking for your stereo headphones as you play Pianoteq in binaural mode, whereby the movements of your own head could be mapped and applied in real time to reposition the virtual "headphones" of Pianoteq's binaural sound recording 3D modelling of the acoustic environment. Then, I believe, the grand piano would "appear" before you as an almost tangible 3D sound source. As you lean in closer, things get louder, as you bend to the right or left, you hear the treble or bass keys more closely. You could even stand up from your stool and lean forward putting you head inside the lid, over the strings and hammers, like you can with a real grand piano (lid open) and hear their vivid brightness, feel their proximity.

I think the same user experience quantum leap up going from "fixed" stereoscopic 3D photos and video, to totally immersive motion-tracked 3D stereoscopic virtual reality, could be an equally impressive quantum leap forward in the "sonic virtual reality" and our holy grail quest of trying to reproduce the feeling and sonic experience of sitting in front of a Steinway D concert grand piano.
I now think, lack of head motion tracking, is probably the stumbling block why playing digital pianos always feels fake, whereas real acoustic pianos actually exist in front of you.
Pianists play with huge expression and body language, rolling their torso and shoulders around, wild head movements, etc. - we're hardly ever sitting still, static and locked in one place. Our ears therefore perceive an ever changing stereoscopic sound perspective, which even with binaural HRTF recordings is not captured by one stationary fixed mic position.

This idea is not easy to implement and test, because obviously the required hardware is not commonplace.
Beyerdynamic Headzone Pro was on manufacturer's attempt at head-tracking headphones, but I can't think of many others... (off the top of my head, haha)
...although millions of people (including pianists like me) already do own VR headsets like PSVR and the 3D stereo Playstation cameras which connect via USB. Maybe we can use or adapt the existing hardware somehow? Perhaps the host computer could use a 3D camera like that and track motion if people stuck a few high-vis stickers onto their headphones(!) or perhaps you could just use your PSVR or Oculus headset while you play Pianoteq, and to that end, it would be great to have a 3D rendered Steinway D image in front of you too!

I'm sure this is the way forward, folks.
There are people out there who do know a lot about VR and head tracking and the cameras and technology for VR. It wouldn't take much genius to apply the same tech to a stereo audio only experience, with motion tracking of the virtual binaural piano model that Pianoteq already has. The question is, can the Pianoteq 3D coordinate parameters be manipulated live in real-time without causing audible glitches? Does Pianoteq need to pause and recalculate a new mathematical model for each new 3D position? Or could it just track the motion (perhaps using some 3rd party hardware that could turn the motion tracking into a stream of MIDI data which feeds Pianoteq's parameters, and maybe update the position 25 times a second (every 40ms) like video 25fps can fool the eye, maybe 25fps positional data update can fool the ear too, and Pianoteq could somehow update the maths model every 40ms with new positional data, or smoothly morph between the data values?

I'm sure this is the way forward, somebody needs to look into it, please... it's gotta be worth someone building a prototype and seeing how it feels to play a virtual piano with Virtual Binural Reality.

propianist


Further to this, for those interested...

It is already possible in Pianoteq to assign MIDI controllers for all three of the X, Y, Z coordinates for the virtual headphone position - just right-click on the movable headphone graphic (Pianoteq > Sound Recording > Mode = Binaural ) on the viewer and you get a pop-up for the X, Y, Z values to each learn any MIDI controller.
You can also assign another MIDI controller to "Head angle" which is the 360 degree rotation, again by right-clicking the relevant arrow on the icon.
And also there is "Head diameter (cm)" which I didn't even know about, which is the virtual width between the ears - also MIDI assignable.

I've tried all these MIDI controllers from my Kawai MP8, successfully assigning 4 hardware knobs and mod wheel, it everything works as expected.

Only caveats are...

1. Moving one hardware knob requires the use of your hand (can't play piano with 2 hands) so for hand adjustment of a single X or Y or Z parameter, you might as well just use that same hand instead to mouse drag the position around, because in fact mouse dragging controls 2 dimensions simultaneously rather than just one and is more physically intuitive action.

2. Pianoteq Head Angle appears to be a flat 360 rotation only, and lacks the ability to tilt head looking up at ceiling or down at floor. That would I guess require Modartt to update the model.

This all seems promising, but there's still no easy way I know how to animate these MIDI parameters using head-tracking.

There are some 3rd party head-tracking hardware devices available like Waves NX Bluetooth headtracker (appears to be either £79 or £58 on Thomann)...

https://www.thomann.de/gb/waves_nx_head_tracker_for_headphones.htm

https://www.thomann.de/gb/waves_nx_mix_room_head_tracker.htm

...which clips onto your headphones and allows their software Waves Virtual Mix Room 5.1 surround plugin to track 360 degree rotation, and apply I guess stereo HTRF and panorama adjustments in realtime, but I think that assumes you're always in the centre sweetspot rather than wandering around in the whole X-Y-Z listening area. Never had that product myself though.
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
I am curious about how you find those differences between 6 and 7. I installed yesterday another first, Cubase Pro 11. Well, what best to check it than the brand new PTQ 7!. So I inserted an instrument track for each and put an insert, on the output, of the very advanced new metering system than Cubase 11 incorporates. I also put on my headphones. I used the VPC1 for the tests.

So, selecting on PTQ 6 and 7 the exact same preset, for several different pianos, I was able to instantly switch and see (spectrum and level wise) the differences (comparing notes, triads, with and without pedal)... which were completely absent!. So, please, could someone explain the exact setup used to find those big differences?. I am truly puzzled.

To be honest I found one difference: the U4 pedal noise was missing on PTQ7. I guess that is a minor bug, as it was OK for the rest of pianos.

I correct myself. Doing some more tests today, I can find (i.e. hear) the difference on all models. Subtle, but present. I guess yesterday I was too tired, after all day trying to get Cubase Pro 11 to activate cursing )

It is harder (for me at least) to find the difference on U4 than Bluethner, for example. All in all, I would say there is an improvement on PTQ 7 model towards the real thing.

I have also found that some basses are differently tuned on some piano models from 6 to 7. Does anyone know why?. I guess both tunings are technically correct.

The MORPH feature is a powerful one. To check it, I have built my own Pop piano with a 3-piano mix thumb
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
It is harder (for me at least) to find the difference on U4 than Bluethner, for example. All in all, I would say there is an improvement on PTQ 7 model towards the real thing.

For me the Bechstein has the most notable change from the instruments that I own, but it's more noticable for me when I play myself then listening to the recording I made yesterday from the MIDI.

But you are right, it's more a subtle change that gives the piano more "body" then an earth shattering difference. The overall tone sounds pretty similar to me.
Posted By: Gamma1734 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 04:31 PM
What I want to add is that I absolutely love ptq for their harpsichords and fortepianos. Man they sound so good and play much better than anything else I've tried. They sound so real honestly. I think it really difficult to say anything against these models...
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 05:25 PM
On another product from Modartt is Organteq. I have been listening to it more and more and if it ever goes on sale I will be tempted by it.
Posted By: IosPlayer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:07 PM
What are the details of the trial downloads, please? Length of time, notes missing, etc.
Also, do you need a license device to download the full version? Thanks!
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:14 PM
What are the limitation ?

- 8 notes are disabled (silent): F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5 and A#5.
- Must be restarted after 20 minutes.

And it is free, you don’t lost much money downloading it.

When you buy a licence, you have a dedicated user area where you can download the « real » version. This version can act in a demo mode with instruments you haven’t bought.
Posted By: IosPlayer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/12/20 08:40 PM
Thank you Frederic L!
Posted By: robinlb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/13/20 02:30 AM
Just downloaded and upgraded to 7, all of my original presets are now available.
I tried a few of my favorite pianos(Bluthner and SteinwayB), and to my surprise, the high-notes metallic sounds I didn't like before disappeared, replaced by a rounder and gentle voice.
I'll take the time to do some more careful comparison and try out some new features such as layering and morphing.
Posted By: Burkey Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/13/20 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
- 8 notes are disabled (silent): F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5 and A#5.
- Must be restarted after 20 minutes.
So if we remap those 8 to other keys (e.g. A0, A#0, B0, A8, A#8, B8, C8) and then adjust the pitch of those keys we'd have a full 80 keys running for 20 mins smile
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/13/20 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
- 8 notes are disabled (silent): F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5 and A#5.
- Must be restarted after 20 minutes.
So if we remap those 8 to other keys (e.g. A0, A#0, B0, A8, A#8, B8, C8) and then adjust the pitch of those keys we'd have a full 80 keys running for 20 mins smile

I did something like that using DimPro and having multi instances open of it for the few notes Pianoteq were silent for. I put each instance of DimPro for only one note. I just did it as a challenge to see if I could do it. That was quite a few years ago. In Mixcraft it would be really simple using the virtual Instrument Window in the DAW. This lets you stack multiple instruments on one track.
So when there is a will there is a way.
Posted By: robinlb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/13/20 04:41 AM
Bad news for me, after upgraded to 7, I feel Bechstein D282 is completely different.
I'm using my original preset, but it becomes thinner and sharper.
Other pianos are fine, especially the Hamburg Steinway D, which has become usable and nicer now.
Posted By: sullivang Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/15/20 12:20 PM
Boring. Should be called V1.7.

Greg
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/15/20 01:43 PM
@Burkey: To fix dead key "X" ... if you remap X ... what would you map it to? To a working key Y, right? And then re-pitch Y key to the pitch of X. (I don't know how to do do that, but perhaps you do?)

But now you've lost the use of key Y. Bummer.

But wait! Suppose you map Y to Z and re-pitch Z to the pitch of Y. Now Y works.

But now Z doesn't work.

So you repeat all of this. You "push" a bunch of keys downward, and then remap their pitches accordingly.

Nice. But can you do it?

I know you suffixed your post with a smiley. But you are not Pete14. You might actually be serious. So the question stands: Can you do it?
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
- 8 notes are disabled (silent): F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5 and A#5.
- Must be restarted after 20 minutes.
So if we remap those 8 to other keys (e.g. A0, A#0, B0, A8, A#8, B8, C8) and then adjust the pitch of those keys we'd have a full 80 keys running for 20 mins smile
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/15/20 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by robinlb
Bad news for me, after upgraded to 7, I feel Bechstein D282 is completely different.
I'm using my original preset, but it becomes thinner and sharper.
Other pianos are fine, especially the Hamburg Steinway D, which has become usable and nicer now.

Over the years my "modifications" have been reduced to nothing to accommodate this issue.

Right now .... I am fine with "as is".
Posted By: klausi6 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/15/20 06:28 PM
I love the new NY Steinway D Classical Recording.
This is the preset which Phil Best uses in his Video.
You can not compare the sound with the American D from Ivory.
The Ivory is wam and clear. It is one of my favority VSTs.

The NY is more mellow and wam, but it has this room filling sound,wonderful.

You should try it. grin
Posted By: oswaldpeters Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/15/20 09:26 PM
Okay, so I've had the chance to spend my day off work with Pianoteq 7. On my first try I wasn't over enamoured with the update, and had parked it until today. Firstly I binned my presets from V6, and built everything up from scratch - even building myself a totally new velocity curve. Everything seems to react a bit differently in V6, but what does seem to cause the horrible blooming effect that I was whinging about in my last post, is the condition slider. Usually I always set this to .33 which gave a more vibrant sound (and less perfect) in V6 - this now causes a horrible ringing that I just can't stand.

I have a lot more playing around to do, but I'm pretty confident that I'm going to grow into V7 just fine.

Here's a little clip of two pianos... the first half is a recording of a Kawai Baby Grand Piano, and the second half is Pianoteq tweaked to be as similar as I could get it: https://clyp.it/z2zbvzj0
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
Okay, so I've had the chance to spend my day off work with Pianoteq 7. On my first try I wasn't over enamoured with the update, and had parked it until today. Firstly I binned my presets from V6, and built everything up from scratch - even building myself a totally new velocity curve. Everything seems to react a bit differently in V6, but what does seem to cause the horrible blooming effect that I was whinging about in my last post, is the condition slider. Usually I always set this to .33 which gave a more vibrant sound (and less perfect) in V6 - this now causes a horrible ringing that I just can't stand.

I have a lot more playing around to do, but I'm pretty confident that I'm going to grow into V7 just fine.

Here's a little clip of two pianos... the first half is a recording of a Kawai Baby Grand Piano, and the second half is Pianoteq tweaked to be as similar as I could get it: https://clyp.it/z2zbvzj0

Wow, that sounds pretty similiar, mind sharing that FXP laugh
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
Okay, so I've had the chance to spend my day off work with Pianoteq 7. On my first try I wasn't over enamoured with the update, and had parked it until today. Firstly I binned my presets from V6, and built everything up from scratch - even building myself a totally new velocity curve. Everything seems to react a bit differently in V6, but what does seem to cause the horrible blooming effect that I was whinging about in my last post, is the condition slider. Usually I always set this to .33 which gave a more vibrant sound (and less perfect) in V6 - this now causes a horrible ringing that I just can't stand.

I have a lot more playing around to do, but I'm pretty confident that I'm going to grow into V7 just fine.

Here's a little clip of two pianos... the first half is a recording of a Kawai Baby Grand Piano, and the second half is Pianoteq tweaked to be as similar as I could get it: https://clyp.it/z2zbvzj0
Very nice, both playing and sound. May I ask what preset you are using as a starting point?
Posted By: Svennig Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Very nice, both playing and sound. May I ask what preset you are using as a starting point?

My guess is the Bechstein
Posted By: Evgeny 85 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 11:19 AM
Great example! I seems it would be even better if you lower the condition a little.
Posted By: Terry Michael Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 12:28 PM
I wonder why it’s version 7 and not 6.x? It really doesn’t feel like a major update.
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Terry Michael
I wonder why it’s version 7 and not 6.x? It really doesn’t feel like a major update.

This probably sells better.
I don't think that is entirely fair. To be honest, I think the sound has improved only marginally, but the introduced morphing and layering, which are entirely new concepts to Pianoteq (like them, loathe them, or disregard them), seem to me adequate reason to up the version number to the next whole number.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 01:20 PM
I wholly agree! (You get it? ‘cause you mentioned rounding up to the next ‘whole’ number, so I use ‘wholly’ as a sort of smart-ass pun....) grin
Yes, I think I get it now; it's basically a play on one of the words. That's utterly cool and amazing. If only that could be transfered to Pianoteq and the sample libraries. Now, that would be a game changer.
Posted By: propianist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@Burkey: To fix dead key "X" ... if you remap X ... what would you map it to? To a working key Y, right? And then re-pitch Y key to the pitch of X. (I don't know how to do do that, but perhaps you do?)

But now you've lost the use of key Y. Bummer.

But wait! Suppose you map Y to Z and re-pitch Z to the pitch of Y. Now Y works.

But now Z doesn't work.

So you repeat all of this. You "push" a bunch of keys downward, and then remap their pitches accordingly.

Nice. But can you do it?

I know you suffixed your post with a smiley. But you are not Pete14. You might actually be serious. So the question stands: Can you do it?
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
- 8 notes are disabled (silent): F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5 and A#5.
- Must be restarted after 20 minutes.
So if we remap those 8 to other keys (e.g. A0, A#0, B0, A8, A#8, B8, C8) and then adjust the pitch of those keys we'd have a full 88 keys running for 20 mins smile


In fact Pianoteq Trial even goes as far as disabling normal behaviour of pitch bend wheel within +/-2 semitones range of those silent demo keys.
Posted By: R_B Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Quote
New York Steinway D

Recorded at New York Steinway Hall in collaboration with Steinway
Modelled from Steinway’s groundbreaking new flagship instrument — the Model D Spirio|r

Has Pianoteq switched to being a sampled instrument now? Spirio is the Steinway equivalent of the Yamaha Disklavier, i.e. a player-piano system that uses solenoids and it's useful for creating automated sampling sessions of multiple velocity layers. Why would you model a piano VST after Spirio which is a mechanical system that has nothing to do with its sound? What have they modeled after it? The solenoid noises?

I'm confused... But it's a welcome addition for Pianoteq to stop modeling and instead switch to sampling 😉


I doubt that you are "confused".

PART of pianoteq's development process does involve recording at least one example "wooden" piano of the make and model that they have under development.

Doubtless they play their model "against" the recordings many times during their development.
I dont see that as "sampling" - I see it as having a reference recording of a wooden piano.

YMMV, etc.
Posted By: oswaldpeters Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/16/20 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
Okay, so I've had the chance to spend my day off work with Pianoteq 7. On my first try I wasn't over enamoured with the update, and had parked it until today. Firstly I binned my presets from V6, and built everything up from scratch - even building myself a totally new velocity curve. Everything seems to react a bit differently in V6, but what does seem to cause the horrible blooming effect that I was whinging about in my last post, is the condition slider. Usually I always set this to .33 which gave a more vibrant sound (and less perfect) in V6 - this now causes a horrible ringing that I just can't stand.

I have a lot more playing around to do, but I'm pretty confident that I'm going to grow into V7 just fine.

Here's a little clip of two pianos... the first half is a recording of a Kawai Baby Grand Piano, and the second half is Pianoteq tweaked to be as similar as I could get it: https://clyp.it/z2zbvzj0
Very nice, both playing and sound. May I ask what preset you are using as a starting point?
It was the new NY Steinway - it was extensively tweaked through to provide the sound on the recording. Unfortunately I didn't save the settings after making the rendering!
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/17/20 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
It was the new NY Steinway - it was extensively tweaked through to provide the sound on the recording. Unfortunately I didn't save the settings after making the rendering!
I see, I think you've managed to get a very nice "woody" and full sound that I've found difficult sometimes with Pianoteq, especially with the Steinway D:s. Lovely piece of music as well.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Originally Posted by oswaldpeters
It was the new NY Steinway - it was extensively tweaked through to provide the sound on the recording. Unfortunately I didn't save the settings after making the rendering!
I see, I think you've managed to get a very nice "woody" and full sound that I've found difficult sometimes with Pianoteq, especially with the Steinway D:s. Lovely piece of music as well.

By my experience:
- Add more microphones, change the positions
- Change the microphones, they have quite the impact on the sound
- Use a more "professional" reverb, the space where you "put" the piano has a lot of impact. Space Designer from Logic/Mainstage for example has a "warm piano room" preset that sounds like a (suprise) warm piano room and a lot of warmth to the sound. There is also things like "wodden room" that indeed adds a more "woody" sound. I think people underestimate the quality of the room, the big VSTs are all recorded in extremely nice studios, the whole selling point of Garritan CFX is the sound of Abbey Road studios.

There are more in detail things that you can do, but those specific things have a big impact on the sound in my experience.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 11:23 AM
Why are we so obsessed with ‘wood’?

It sounds so quaint, woody, but still we’re obsessed with it.

You know, there are much better perspectives (metal) than good ol’ wood out there; perhaps you guys should try them out!
Posted By: iliverez Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 01:04 PM
I 've been toying around with the demos v6 and 7 lately. More or less I like them, at least for practicing. Now I use the v7 demo. I switch often from one piano to another, but mostly I use the NY Steinway D and Petrof 275. I noticed a somewhat strange behavior though with the Steinway D NY. When playing D2 and G5 at the same time, G5 gets a bit "chocked". Using another piano it sounds ok. Other than that, I like the responsiveness combined with the light CPU usage as it makes living with the ESI Keyring 49+ tolerable while waiting for the Roland to arrive.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 01:21 PM
So now we’re complaining about Pianoteq ‘choking’, and before, it was not ‘woody’ enough; for god’s sake, what next?

You know, if you decide to dissect the Sistine Chapel’s painted ceiling I’m sure you’ll find many ‘issues, inconsistencies, and bureaucracies’, but does that make it any less of a masterpiece? NO!

Pianoteq is a masterpiece, so please let it be and stop dissecting it for flaws that are at best subjective!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 01:36 PM
Good point, Pete. You're right. No dissection of flaws is needed. Pianoteq has only one flaw.
Originally Posted by Pete14
So now we’re complaining about Pianoteq ‘choking’, and before, it was not ‘woody’ enough; for god’s sake, what next?
You know, if you decide to dissect the Sistine Chapel’s painted ceiling I’m sure you’ll find many ‘issues, inconsistencies, and bureaucracies’, but does that ake it any less of a masterpiece? NO!
Pianoteq is a masterpiece, so please let it be and stop dissecting it for flaws that are at best subjective!
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 01:41 PM
I guess if Pianoteq was so bad, it would be out of the market for years now. And, if it was so good, there won't be any sampled VSTs around...

So, even if for some people is anathema, it should have some good things on it, I guess.
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
You know, if you decide to dissect the Sistine Chapel’s painted ceiling I’m sure you’ll find many ‘issues, inconsistencies, and bureaucracies’, but does that make it any less of a masterpiece? NO!
But is it woody enough?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 02:19 PM
Keep in mind that the reason sampled VSTs are still around has more to do with marketing.

They know (the VSLs, and Synthogys of this world) that we are obsessed with “huge”, so they play us like violins stuck on the same note for eternity!

They tell us about thousands of layers (“huge, so it must be good/better”); they then tell us about the mammoth requirements: huge SSD storage space (to store the thousands of samples), tons of RAM, many cores, the fastest clock speed in town, and so on.........

“If one needs a quasi super computer to run sampled libraries then that must mean they’re great” (a placebo that works wonders on the psyche).

“It costs hundreds of dollars more than the rest so it must be better” (a justification to soothe the inner voice questioning the purchase; a.k.a. buyers remorse).


Pianoteq tells us of no such things (it only requires a puny few MB of storage, almost no RAM, and a basic dual core); so you see, it can’t compete with the “huge is better” hysteria that has clouded the judgement of many!


Once again, bigger is not better (it has been scientifically proven)! grin
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 02:42 PM
Woody is good. Tinny is not.
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
But is it woody enough?
Posted By: johnstaf Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Keep in mind that the reason sampled VSTs are still around has more to do with marketing.

They know (the VSLs, and Synthogys of this world) that we are obsessed with “huge”, so they play us like violins stuck on the same note for eternity!

Yeah. And the fact that they sound better is entirely incidental.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 03:00 PM
You know, my wife left me for the piano tuner, and as far as I know, he had an average goose-head tuning lever. Granted, it was not ‘tiny’ but neither was it ‘large’.

He tuned my wife well; but as all things go, I’m now with a guitar-shaped Brazilian who needs no tuner (she tunes herself), and I could not be happier.

I’m not sure what the moral of the story is, but I digress!
Posted By: iliverez Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 03:30 PM
Wondering what would have happened if I had written that I don't like PT. Don't get me wrong, I do like PT and the demos are my day to day tool, except for when I need the missing notes. I am not buying it yet because I 've just paid 2k for the Roland. If the Roland sound/experience is not good enough for me in the long run, PT would be my first option, since it works good enough for my practicing.

If everything was perfect out of the box, they would not have released 3 revisions during the first week. It has just been released and a couple of things may occur. It's totally reasonable and nothing to nag about. Actually, they are rather quick in fixing things.

Btw the analogy of PT and Sistine Chapel totally surpasses my thinking/processing capability by far smile

Speaking of which now I am totally confused whether I should continue considering that PT is good for me (don't really care if it's better or not compared to other VSTs), because:
* Woody is good, but PT is not woody enough
* tiny is not good, but PT is tiny?
* PT does not need a tuner, which is rather good (married, 2 kids)

laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: Tyr Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 04:09 PM
Why i like Pianoteq:

1. Standalone and no fiddling with things like iLok etc.
2. Low Requirements (Space, CPU, RAM)
3. Short Loading Times
4. Many Instruments
5. A ton of settings
6. Short latency without additional work

Is it perfect? No but i can live with the small things that aren't perfect while PT does other things right where other VSTs are lacking.
Originally Posted by Tyr
Why i like Pianoteq:

1. Standalone and no fiddling with things like iLok etc.
2. Low Requirements (Space, CPU, RAM)
3. Short Loading Times
4. Many Instruments
5. A ton of settings
6. Short latency without additional work

In principle, I agree with you on all those points. However, I recently bought Ivory II Studio Grands, and they fare like this:

1. Standalone and no fiddling with things like iLok etc.
2. Low Requirements (running on an old, refubished DELL core-i3 office PC).
3. Short Loading Times (similar to Pianoteq).
4. Two Instruments.
5. A ton of settings
6. Short latency without additional work

Pretty much the same as Pianoteq, and the Studio Grands sound far better. I wish Modarrt could fix the aspects of the sound that irritate (for me there is a kind of "voice less" burst of air right before every sound begins ... I know, difficult to convey meaningfully in words, but that's about the best I can do with this experience).

I expect Pianoteq to be really good at some point in the future. My gut tells me that future is more than 10 years away.
Posted By: JayKominek Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
(for me there is a kind of "voice less" burst of air right before every sound begins ... I know, difficult to convey meaningfully in words, but that's about the best I can do with this experience).
If it is before every key, then maybe the simulated action/key noise?

If it is every time Pianoteq goes from silent to making sound, it could be some weird interaction with your audio card/drivers or the various buffer size settings. That might be worth asking Modartt about.
Originally Posted by JayKominek
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
(for me there is a kind of "voice less" burst of air right before every sound begins ... I know, difficult to convey meaningfully in words, but that's about the best I can do with this experience).
If it is before every key, then maybe the simulated action/key noise?

If it is every time Pianoteq goes from silent to making sound, it could be some weird interaction with your audio card/drivers or the various buffer size settings. That might be worth asking Modartt about.

It is audible also in nearly all the sound examples on Modarrts website, regardless of which PC (and DAC) I used. I have not checked recently (since getting version 7), but I always turn the action/key noise off entirely, so I expect it is simply an integrated aspect of the sound production algorithm.

Maybe I can phrase the experience differently: It is as if the "ghost" of every note can be heard a tiny fraction of a second before the note itself appears. (As if that explanation clears everything up smile ).
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 05:13 PM
Like Tyr, is it perfect, heck no but for my needs it is fine. But I do find it funny when folks keep comparing it to the $$$$$ Steinway or Yamaha they have or have tried. Of course it will fall short or I hope it does. There something about having the strings vibrate on a real piano that I don't know if software can replace. Yes I also know there are people here that don't like the sound compared to a toy piano. I disagree with them.

Maybe if a company comes out with a pair of soundboards you hang on a wall without being the do it yourself type that would help PianoTeq.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Woody is good. Tinny is not.
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
But is it woody enough?

Frightful piano sounds. Perfectly dreadful.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Woody is good. Tinny is not.
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
But is it woody enough?

Frightful piano sounds. Perfectly dreadful.

That could be there next piano LOL Of course there will still be some that say they didn't get it right!
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
There something about having the strings vibrate on a real piano that I don't know if software can replace.

How do you know those ‘strings’ on that ‘real’ piano are not part of an all-encompassing simulation software, and that you, too, are simply part of that simulation?

We insignificant things have barely scratched the surface with our basic little simulations within the larger simulation. So yes, we can create a virtual personal assistant, namely, SIRI; or can we? No!

Although we believe with high certainty that indeed we are creators the truth is that we are no more than working bees simply following commands previously programmed by aliens into the all-encompassing simulation.

You think you have free will? Think again, bumbling bee; for that thing you just ‘created’ is no more than the sum of 0s and 1s previously ordained (programmed) by Timmy (aka The Alien). smirk
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 05:57 PM
@Pete14 how did you find out that my code name is Neo. Now I must break out of the Matrix of PianoTeq, otherwise I shall not exist anymore! Here I thought you liked me frown
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 06:00 PM
Ones man's truth is another man's lies! With all that is happening now in the world Pianoteq 7 is a nice distraction.
Originally Posted by EPW
Ones man's truth is another man's lies! With all that is happening now in the world Pianoteq 7 is a nice distraction.

Yes, and it's nice that Pianoteq is something we all can agree on. smile
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
@Pete14 how did you find out that my code name is Neo. Now I must break out of the Matrix of PianoTeq, otherwise I shall not exist anymore! Here I thought you liked me frown

I do like you, Neo, but our cover has been blown and the agents are headed our way.

I’ve been trying to connect with the mother-ship for a teleporting rotary-dial phone to no avail; it seems like the mother-ship has been overtaken by the sentinels.

I’m also trying very hard to get an appointment with the oracle, but I can only hope she’s still alive and baking cookies.

Keep an eye on Abdol (I think he might be an undercover agent).........
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by EPW
@Pete14 how did you find out that my code name is Neo. Now I must break out of the Matrix of PianoTeq, otherwise I shall not exist anymore! Here I thought you liked me frown

I do like you, Neo, but our cover has been blown and the agents are headed our way.

I’ve been trying to connect with the mother-ship for a teleporting rotary-dial phone to no avail; it seems like the mother-ship has been overtaken by the sentinels.

I’m also trying very hard to get an appointment with the oracle, but I can only hope she’s still alive and baking cookies.

Keep an eye on Abdol (I think he might be an undercover agent).........

laugh laugh laugh
You are having too much fun!
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 07:59 PM
Maybe the damper noise? It is somewhat excessive in some piano models. It is very easy do diminish it or even eliminate.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
In principle, I agree with you on all those points. However, I recently bought Ivory II Studio Grands, and they fare like this:

1. Standalone and no fiddling with things like iLok etc.
2. Low Requirements (running on an old, refubished DELL core-i3 office PC).
3. Short Loading Times (similar to Pianoteq).
4. Two Instruments.
5. A ton of settings
6. Short latency without additional work

1. Well, Ivory works with iLok. You have the choice of PC or dongle storage of the licence. Personally I prefer the dongle (if my PC become out of order, I don’t lost one of my license... I am aware that I have 3 licenses. If my dongle is broken, I can use on the PC a spare license will I send my dongle to the RMA). With the Pianoteq protection, we don’t have yo worry about broken PC : just desactivate the PC from the Modartt site and activate an other. Kontakt based libraries seem nice from the protection point of view.
2. Low requirements : I agree about CPU. About memory, I have (only) 8GB, it is Ok for Ivory which takes 1GB (but I suppose a 4GB PC will have an hard time to keep the samples in memory with the OS memory stress). About disk, it takes some space and if we like to have multiple instruments, a big drive is required. If we want to have low loading time, a SSD is required too (more expensive).
3. This depends of the drive type. Loading times made me change my drive by an SSD.
4. The number of instruments is a plus of pianoteq if we are budget limited (only 50$/instrument), or space limited.
5. The settings of Pianoteq are quite exclusive... but I can’t use them (as a Stage Pianoteq user).
6. Ok, the latency depends of the ASIO driver and settings... we need a very bad VST to add extra latency.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
1. Well, Ivory works with iLok. You have the choice of PC or dongle storage of the licence.

Yes, mea culpa! I forgot about the iLok because I already had an account, so it didn't mentally register like much of an issue. I was thinking about the iLok dongle, which is no longer required.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by EPW
There something about having the strings vibrate on a real piano that I don't know if software can replace.

How do you know those ‘strings’ on that ‘real’ piano are not part of an all-encompassing simulation software, and that you, too, are simply part of that simulation?

We insignificant things have barely scratched the surface with our basic little simulations within the larger simulation. So yes, we can create a virtual personal assistant, namely, SIRI; or can we? No!

Although we believe with high certainty that indeed we are creators the truth is that we are no more than working bees simply following commands previously programmed by aliens into the all-encompassing simulation.

You think you have free will? Think again, bumbling bee; for that thing you just ‘created’ is no more than the sum of 0s and 1s previously ordained (programmed) by Timmy (aka The Alien). smirk

Think y'need to chuck in a bit of Religiosity here, Pete; you're nearly there. Stir up a hornet's nest . . .
Posted By: Jethro Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 09:18 PM
Ha with each of this Pianoteq 6 to 7 upgrade its like 3 updated and improved pianos for my Kawai VPC-1 for only $33. Try THAT on a Clavinova!
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/18/20 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by EPW
There something about having the strings vibrate on a real piano that I don't know if software can replace.

How do you know those ‘strings’ on that ‘real’ piano are not part of an all-encompassing simulation software, and that you, too, are simply part of that simulation?

We insignificant things have barely scratched the surface with our basic little simulations within the larger simulation. So yes, we can create a virtual personal assistant, namely, SIRI; or can we? No!

Although we believe with high certainty that indeed we are creators the truth is that we are no more than working bees simply following commands previously programmed by aliens into the all-encompassing simulation.

You think you have free will? Think again, bumbling bee; for that thing you just ‘created’ is no more than the sum of 0s and 1s previously ordained (programmed) by Timmy (aka The Alien). smirk

Think y'need to chuck in a bit of Religiosity here, Pete; you're nearly there. Stir up a hornet's nest . . .

Plus with Pete talking about Bumble Bee he needs to bring in some talk about Transformers and Cars, Trucks too laugh
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/19/20 01:23 AM
@peterws: You realize, don't you, that your witicism on Piano World has received much competition from Pete14 for quite a few months now?
Indeed, he is posting more in this Digital forum that you have lately.
Step up your game (please)! smile
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by EPW
There something about having the strings vibrate on a real piano that I don't know if software can replace.

How do you know those ‘strings’ on that ‘real’ piano are not part of an all-encompassing simulation software, and that you, too, are simply part of that simulation?

We insignificant things have barely scratched the surface with our basic little simulations within the larger simulation. So yes, we can create a virtual personal assistant, namely, SIRI; or can we? No!

Although we believe with high certainty that indeed we are creators the truth is that we are no more than working bees simply following commands previously programmed by aliens into the all-encompassing simulation.

You think you have free will? Think again, bumbling bee; for that thing you just ‘created’ is no more than the sum of 0s and 1s previously ordained (programmed) by Timmy (aka The Alien). smirk

Think y'need to chuck in a bit of Religiosity here, Pete; you're nearly there. Stir up a hornet's nest . . .
Posted By: Jethro Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/20/20 02:00 PM
So I tried the demo version of Pianoteq 7 and initially I didn't know what to make of it. In fact my initial impressions was that with the new modelling across all pianos it sounded terrible. Maybe I had it set-up wrong but all my pianos sounded as if I was playing a piano in bathtub. So I watched a video of a review of PTQ 7 and the gentleman's NY Steinway sounded better than mine. So I changed the audio setting from Binaural to Stereophonic and that makes a big difference. When I play the pianos while wearing a headphone the binaural setting is now overwhelming. It's as if I've got soundwaves bouncing all around my head and everything is just mashed together and thin. It's as if I'm listening to a binaural sample binaurally if that makes any sense. The new 3D modelling becomes too much if you listen to these pianos in the binaural setting if you ask me. Once set to stereophonic everything clears up and I do like the sound of all my pianos. There seems to be more clarity and attack, a better bell-like tone and improved richness and depth overall to the digital pianos I purchased (Steinway B, Grotian, Bechstein). The NY Steinway sounds good but it plays as if I'm hearing the piano from a distance (in the player setting) rather than sitting in front of it. Again, I'm no Pianoteq expert and I own the stage version only. I just set my VPC-1 to the PTQ touch velocity and keep everything at the default setting other than changing the audio to stereophonic. The Pianoteq 7 has become my default piano when practicing on the VPC-1 once again. My Ravenscroft sounds nice but PTQ 7 has closed the gap and the playability of PTQ7 is leaps and bounds better than Ravenscroft in my moderate mac mini set-up.
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 05:20 AM
Eat that, MacMacMac (Mini) wink
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 05:47 AM
I'm prepared to eat aplenty ...
Originally Posted by Fleer
Eat that, (Mini) wink

But there's nothing to eat!
Originally Posted by Jethro
So I tried the demo version of Pianoteq 7 and initially I didn't know what to make of it. In fact my initial impressions was that with the new modelling across all pianos it sounded terrible.
In that statement I would only change one thing:
I'd replace Jethro's "initial impression" (which lasted perhaps a day) to "perpetual impression" (which, for me, has lasted about ten years). smile
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by Jethro
So I tried the demo version of Pianoteq 7 and initially I didn't know what to make of it. In fact my initial impressions was that with the new modelling across all pianos it sounded terrible. Maybe I had it set-up wrong but all my pianos sounded as if I was playing a piano in bathtub. So I watched a video of a review of PTQ 7 and the gentleman's NY Steinway sounded better than mine. So I changed the audio setting from Binaural to Stereophonic and that makes a big difference. When I play the pianos while wearing a headphone the binaural setting is now overwhelming. It's as if I've got soundwaves bouncing all around my head and everything is just mashed together and thin. It's as if I'm listening to a binaural sample binaurally if that makes any sense. The new 3D modelling becomes too much if you listen to these pianos in the binaural setting if you ask me. Once set to stereophonic everything clears up and I do like the sound of all my pianos. There seems to be more clarity and attack, a better bell-like tone and improved richness and depth overall to the digital pianos I purchased (Steinway B, Grotian, Bechstein). The NY Steinway sounds good but it plays as if I'm hearing the piano from a distance (in the player setting) rather than sitting in front of it. Again, I'm no Pianoteq expert and I own the stage version only. I just set my VPC-1 to the PTQ touch velocity and keep everything at the default setting other than changing the audio to stereophonic. The Pianoteq 7 has become my default piano when practicing on the VPC-1 once again. My Ravenscroft sounds nice but PTQ 7 has closed the gap and the playability of PTQ7 is leaps and bounds better than Ravenscroft in my moderate mac mini set-up.

I enjoyed the stage version and its limitations (simplicity), but the standard is so much better. You can do much more with version 7, like, adjusting hammer hardness (what a difference!) and 88 note volume control, not available on version 6 except in pro form.
I'd advise d/l the trial Standard first.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 03:43 PM
Quote
n that statement I would only change one thing:
I'd replace Jethro's "initial impression" (which lasted perhaps a day) to "perpetual impression" (which, for me, has lasted about ten years).

Now we know what your problem is. You need to go see an ENT doctor and have your "Ears" cleaned out MacMacMac wink
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
Quote
n that statement I would only change one thing:
I'd replace Jethro's "initial impression" (which lasted perhaps a day) to "perpetual impression" (which, for me, has lasted about ten years).

Now we know what your problem is. You need to go see an ENT doctor and have your "Ears" cleaned out MacMacMac wink

Alas, during lock-down, I suspect he'll have to buy the DIY ear syringe and experiment over the sink.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 05:02 PM
My MIL has hearing aids and Pianoteq version 5 she didn't like either. When version 6 came out it didn't bother her. She never could explain why version 5 did and version 6 was fine. So I do realize some will never like Pianoteq and that is fine. She hasn't heard me play Pianoteq's newest version so we shall see.
Posted By: Svennig Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Jethro
So I tried the demo version of Pianoteq 7 and initially I didn't know what to make of it. In fact my initial impressions was that with the new modelling across all pianos it sounded terrible. Maybe I had it set-up wrong but all my pianos sounded as if I was playing a piano in bathtub. So I watched a video of a review of PTQ 7 and the gentleman's NY Steinway sounded better than mine. So I changed the audio setting from Binaural to Stereophonic and that makes a big difference. When I play the pianos while wearing a headphone the binaural setting is now overwhelming. It's as if I've got soundwaves bouncing all around my head and everything is just mashed together and thin. It's as if I'm listening to a binaural sample binaurally if that makes any sense. The new 3D modelling becomes too much if you listen to these pianos in the binaural setting if you ask me. Once set to stereophonic everything clears up and I do like the sound of all my pianos. There seems to be more clarity and attack, a better bell-like tone and improved richness and depth overall to the digital pianos I purchased (Steinway B, Grotian, Bechstein). The NY Steinway sounds good but it plays as if I'm hearing the piano from a distance (in the player setting) rather than sitting in front of it. Again, I'm no Pianoteq expert and I own the stage version only. I just set my VPC-1 to the PTQ touch velocity and keep everything at the default setting other than changing the audio to stereophonic. The Pianoteq 7 has become my default piano when practicing on the VPC-1 once again. My Ravenscroft sounds nice but PTQ 7 has closed the gap and the playability of PTQ7 is leaps and bounds better than Ravenscroft in my moderate mac mini set-up.

Interesting your note about the stereophonic/binaural output. After your post I did play around with this, as well as switching from mics to binaural in the microphone editor. My impression is the you can make the Steinways somewhat better and make the Bechstein a lot worse. So I'm still not sold on the Steinways.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 07:42 PM
Here is Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal recorded with real chamber music instruments for our Beethoven 2020 project.

The two excerpts in the video are the Trio for Clarinet, Cello and Piano Op. 11 and the Cello Sonata in G minor Op. 5 No. 2.

I can't wait to hear how it will sound with version 7.



We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Here is Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal recorded with real chamber music instruments for our Beethoven 2020 project.

The two excerpts in the video are the Trio for Clarinet, Cello and Piano Op. 11 and the Cello Sonata in G minor Op. 5 No. 2.

I can't wait to hear how it will sound with version 7.



We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674
Very nice! I love these pieces and I think the Grotrian is a great choice for this music. I've been looking for a project like this, how's the piano recorded, is it recorded with microphones with the other musicians or is it lined? Anyway, very nicely done!
Posted By: Beakybird Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Here is Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal recorded with real chamber music instruments for our Beethoven 2020 project.

The two excerpts in the video are the Trio for Clarinet, Cello and Piano Op. 11 and the Cello Sonata in G minor Op. 5 No. 2.

I can't wait to hear how it will sound with version 7.



We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674


Agreed. This sounds lovely. I'm a hobbyist and aspiring songwriter. I have a bunch of Pianoteq instrument packs including the Grotrian. I find the Grotrian piano to be slightly less resonant which is perfect for songs that can get swamped from too much pedal. However, I found that the Grotrian in Pianoteq 6 had a slightly unnatural decay which led me to practice and play using different models. I don't detect this issue in Pianoteq 7.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/21/20 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Here is Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal recorded with real chamber music instruments for our Beethoven 2020 project.

The two excerpts in the video are the Trio for Clarinet, Cello and Piano Op. 11 and the Cello Sonata in G minor Op. 5 No. 2.

I can't wait to hear how it will sound with version 7.



We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674

The piano does need a bit o' reverb; it sounds like it's playing in a different room to the others, or it's a too-clean recording added digitally to the mix.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Here is Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal recorded with real chamber music instruments for our Beethoven 2020 project.

The two excerpts in the video are the Trio for Clarinet, Cello and Piano Op. 11 and the Cello Sonata in G minor Op. 5 No. 2.

I can't wait to hear how it will sound with version 7.



We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674

The piano does need a bit o' reverb; it sounds like it's playing in a different room to the others, or it's a too-clean recording added digitally to the mix.

Well Peter of course it was played in a different room. Covid don't you know wink
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 02:53 AM
Found an interesting morphing example on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qUSituzkDcQ
Posted By: Nordomus Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 07:45 AM
I've played NY Steinway in Pianoteq 7 a lot since release and I have to say this is probably my favorite sound in PT. It sounds very close to actual Steinway D. Sound is so deep and colorful, I didn't notice any downgrade to sound in other presets, although I have to admit I've spent ~70% of the time with NY Steinway. I will get back to them and then report back, all I can say for now that new preset is awesome.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Here is Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal recorded with real chamber music instruments for our Beethoven 2020 project.

The two excerpts in the video are the Trio for Clarinet, Cello and Piano Op. 11 and the Cello Sonata in G minor Op. 5 No. 2.

I can't wait to hear how it will sound with version 7.



We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674

Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 11:02 AM
I’m beginning to think that even real -flesh and bones- musicians will become somewhat obsolete soon (except for us, of course, ‘cause someone has to control them string VSTs).

Yes, there are ‘real’ musicians (I suppose) in this recording, but they’re not that much ahead of top-notch VSTs (have you heard ‘sample-modeling’ strings?)

I can only imagine Beethoven having access to this technology back then. He hated working with flesh-and-bones musicians and was known to have said on many occasions, “if only I could have an orchestra without the actual musicians”. Of course, his contemporaries thought him crazy for this, but Beethoven was so far ahead of the rest that I can see him visualizing a Mac Pro running hundreds of VSTs that would do exactly what he asked without complaining about pay, and without stabbing him in the back after rehearsals, “that stupid Beethoven thinks he’s a genius; I’ll show him who’s the real genius”.

I can see him composing/playing all his masterpieces at home using Pro Tools as a host for Pianoteq & friends; and then rendering, mastering, and releasing his works online (is it Spotify or iTunes? I’m old, so I don’t know). Occasionally he might also collaborate with ‘real’ musicians online, but only very rarely, and only if the first violin was a hot blonde! He also had a thing for brunettes!

Trust me, had this been the case, and we would’ve had even more Beethoven music, and might I add, less angry and more joyful Beethoven music!
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
less angry and more joyful Beethoven music!
But we wouldn't want that, would we? shocked
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 11:18 AM
Hmm, you do have a point! wink
Posted By: Tyr Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...

Whould you say the same thing if you didn't know it was a VST? wink
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...

Whould you say the same thing if you didn't know it was a VST? wink
No. I would only think it’s a badly recorded acoustic piano.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 02:37 PM
Pianoteq 7 has been released.

CyberGene: Yeeee! I'm so happy!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 04:45 PM
If only you could have the use of Shermans' wayback machine!
Originally Posted by Pete14
I can only imagine Beethoven having access to this technology back then.

I can see him composing/playing all his masterpieces at home using Pro Tools as a host for Pianoteq & friends; and then rendering, mastering, and releasing his works online (is it Spotify or iTunes? I’m old, so I don’t know).
You could bring Beethoven all the requisite gizmos. And you could replace Czerny.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/22/20 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Occasionally he might also collaborate with ‘real’ musicians online, but only very rarely, and only if the first violin was a hot blonde! He also had a thing for brunettes!

Trust me, had this been the case, and we would’ve had even more Beethoven music, and might I add, less angry and more joyful Beethoven music!

And we might have had the Patrimonial Symphony . .
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/23/20 08:09 AM
Here's an extended "first look" at Pianoteq 7 by Simeon Amburgey:
https://youtu.be/2HCU0vqzniA
Posted By: johnstaf Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/23/20 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyr
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...

Whould you say the same thing if you didn't know it was a VST? wink
No. I would only think it’s a badly recorded acoustic piano.

I think 1:30 is the real giveaway that it's Pianoteq. It has that sound that all Pianoteq pianos have.
Posted By: Svennig Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/23/20 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Here's an extended "first look" at Pianoteq 7 by Simeon Amburgey:
https://youtu.be/2HCU0vqzniA

Interesting. I'm getting more of the pops from CPU contention in 7 than in the previous version as well, across all instruments. Only when hitting high polyphony.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/23/20 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyr
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...

Whould you say the same thing if you didn't know it was a VST? wink
No. I would only think it’s a badly recorded acoustic piano.

I think 1:30 is the real giveaway that it's Pianoteq. It has that sound that all Pianoteq pianos have.
Indeed. Although if I didn't know it was Pianoteq, and for this passage alone, I would have thought it's a fortepiano or some period instrument because some of them have that hollow sound too.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674
Very nice! I love these pieces and I think the Grotrian is a great choice for this music. I've been looking for a project like this, how's the piano recorded, is it recorded with microphones with the other musicians or is it lined? Anyway, very nicely done!

Thank you!
The piano was recorded directly in the box with Pianoteq's microphones ... This allows a lot of possibilities.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:06 PM
Please post more, I enjoyed it🙂.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
We have posted the complete recording program here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...vative-project-on-ulule.html#Post3047674

Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...[/quote]

I believe Pianoteq is excellent for the COVID period and even a lot more.
There are more and more classical musicians interested in the possibility of playing on modelled instruments since this time.
This changes mentalities.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.


At least you have the chance to progress;)
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Originally Posted by EPW
All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.


At least you have the chance to progress;)

Yep that is the way I look at it.

Hope you post more of your work with Pianoteq. I still don't get the haters of this software.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, there are ‘real’ musicians (I suppose) in this recording, but they’re not that much ahead of top-notch VSTs (have you heard ‘sample-modeling’ strings?)

I've heard them and they're really great. That said, I think that real musicians still have a good future. I hope so.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:47 PM
blush
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyr
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Such a beautiful music and lovely piano playing! If only it was using a better virtual piano or even a real acoustic piano but I guess in this COVID situation that's the reality...

Whould you say the same thing if you didn't know it was a VST? wink
No. I would only think it’s a badly recorded acoustic piano.

I think 1:30 is the real giveaway that it's Pianoteq. It has that sound that all Pianoteq pianos have.


Right. You have good ears John.

I think there's a psychological effect as well. When you say it's a recording made with a modelled piano, most people don't listen to the music anymore and look for all the flaws they can find. But the truth is that if you don't say it, people never hear the difference with a real piano and they focus on the beauty of the music.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 10:21 PM
@Gibraltar I have to agree with you that most people wouldn't notice the difference. Several folks here do have exceptional ears smile

I have a little story to tell. We helped fund a digital slab piano for a church we attended years ago. When it came I still had my Alesis QS8 with me. We brought a Roland RD?? (Forgot the model)

I'll always remember my wife saying as I was playing them both. "Wow the Alesis still sounds pretty good. I can hear the slight difference in the Roland but nobody in the congregation will even notice that the piano is new". She was right nobody did. I think to many folks on this forum always are looking for the flaws instead of enjoying the music.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
Hope you post more of your work with Pianoteq.

You can help for this by contributing to our project: https://ulule.com/lntc-beethoven-2020/
These will be the first official recordings made with modelled instruments and broadcast continuously on a historic French classical music radio FM and Web.

Originally Posted by EPW
I still don't get the haters of this software.

I don't understand it either, but in a way it allows Modartt to improve his pianos more and more to achieve perfection.
It should also be remembered that many people found it difficult to accept the modern piano we know today and preferred the harpsichord or the fortepiano. This is still the case today.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
@Gibraltar I have to agree with you that most people wouldn't notice the difference. Several folks here do have exceptional ears smile

I have a little story to tell. We helped fund a digital slab piano for a church we attended years ago. When it came I still had my Alesis QS8 with me. We brought a Roland RD?? (Forgot the model)

I'll always remember my wife saying as I was playing them both. "Wow the Alesis still sounds pretty good. I can hear the slight difference in the Roland but nobody in the congregation will even notice that the piano is new". She was right nobody did. I think to many folks on this forum always are looking for the flaws instead of enjoying the music.

Yes, this is a very good example.
Technology should never divert attention from the only real goals: music and musicians.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Indeed. Although if I didn't know it was Pianoteq, and for this passage alone, I would have thought it's a fortepiano or some period instrument because some of them have that hollow sound too.

It's true, at first I found Pianoteq's Grotrian to be a bit hollow and without body, but in fact it is very faithful to the original instrument. It also depends on the sound recording.

Version 7 is even better. Modartt has done an incredible job.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/24/20 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
I don't understand it either, but in a way it allows Modartt to improve his pianos more and more to achieve perfection.
It should also be remembered that many people found it difficult to accept the modern piano we know today and preferred the harpsichord or the fortepiano. This is still the case today.

The modern piano still has its imperfections which, I consider, to be essential to its character. One which perhaps shouldn't be there (but always seems to be) is a resonance of strings meeooowing due to hammers, unison defects or settings etc, I know not. I never experienced that in my straight strung upright when I was young, but it seems always there on modern ones.
Pianoteq and particularly digital manufacurers always remove these peripheral sounds.
One of these days they won't. . .
Then we'll have it all!
Will we actually like it?
Like so many extraneous live sounds, at a distance they become diminished greatly.
Posted By: Gibraltar Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/25/20 04:39 PM
Today 5:00pm – 7:00pm (UTC) 2 hours of Pianoteq on broadcasting radio: http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/topics/3049344.html#Post3049344
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/25/20 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Version 7 is even better. Modartt has done an incredible job.

I agree.

Until now Pianoteq has always been something I plugged into just for a variety now and then and usually within an hour or 2 ... would go back to my internal sounds of my digital piano.

Now, however, that has changed.

I have my laptop on all of the time with Pianoteq 7 running and when I turn on my digital piano it automatically brings up the Pianoteq piano for sound.

I don't even think about it anymore.

It is just a piano sound that sounds good to me and I spend my time playing or practicing instead of analyzing sound.

That to me is a major milestone for this software.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/25/20 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Gibraltar
Version 7 is even better. Modartt has done an incredible job.

I agree.

Until now Pianoteq has always been something I plugged into just for a variety now and then and usually within an hour or 2 ... would go back to my internal sounds of my digital piano.

Now, however, that has changed.

I have my laptop on all of the time with Pianoteq 7 running and when I turn on my digital piano it automatically brings up the Pianoteq piano for sound.

I don't even think about it anymore.

It is just a piano sound that sounds good to me and I spend my time playing or practicing instead of analyzing sound.

That to me is a major milestone for this software.

Why bother turning off your piano? My set up seems similar. I love rattling the keys and hearing the thing on my way to opening the window . . . it wakes the dog up.
Posted By: zack! Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/25/20 10:35 PM
listened to some demo on pianoteq site or on youtube. Steinway D sounds really good, I can listen to that pieces whitout any problem in term of musical pleasure. I don't hear flawed / synthetic things that disturb me to listen to the music, perhaps this is not the exact sound, but it is convinccing enough to not be bothered with that (i don't notice or be distracted). I think this is really the first time...
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 03:12 PM
Not sure if anyone posted this as yet

This guy is basically me and my reaction minus the age difference


Look at how excited he is!!
If I did a review, this would be me loll


https://youtu.be/-kT_ukP-cOM

Enjoy

Soon as I get my digital up and running again I’ll post some recordings
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 03:14 PM
Currently trying to move my business and not close down. Covid hit hard. Landlord wants to raise rent in the middle of a pandemic. Usual crap
Will post stuff soon as I get a chance

In the interim look at this adorable man.
He really loves his music . smile
Posted By: PianoManChuck Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 10:48 PM
Finally got my hands on PianoTeq 7 and posted my usual Youtube Review:

Posted By: U3piano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 10:55 PM
First thing I skipped to:

"What shall we choose to morph with.. not another piano because that's too close.


"I choose the toy piano."

smirk
Posted By: PianoManChuck Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by U3piano
First thing I skipped to.

"What shall we choose to morph with.. not another piano because that's too close.


"I choose the toy piano."

smirk
Yeah, that was a bit ironic... but when I saw "toy" I had to go with it thumb
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by PianoManChuck
Finally got my hands on PianoTeq 7 and posted my usual Youtube Review:


Interesting to see the vel curve. That would produce a hard sound on my Yamaha.
Posted By: PianoManChuck Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 11/30/20 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by PianoManChuck
Finally got my hands on PianoTeq 7 and posted my usual Youtube Review:


Interesting to see the vel curve. That would produce a hard sound on my Yamaha.
No doubt. Unfortunately, I've had to adapt to a lighter touch for medical reasons frown
Posted By: Nordomus Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/01/20 07:22 AM
After playing with NY Steinwey much more I have to say that this is without a doubt my favorite preset in Pianoteq now. So sweet yet bright, like real Steinwey can be.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/01/20 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Nordomus
After playing with NY Steinwey much more I have to say that this is without a doubt my favorite preset in Pianoteq now. So sweet yet bright, like real Steinwey can be.

Yea I got it in the Black Friday sale. It really is the best instrument they offer right now, an amazing step up from before.
Posted By: Burkey Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/02/20 09:35 AM
Just picked my 4 instrument packs and ran a blind piano testing through my P-125 over USB Audio.

My wife ranked them in this order, best to worst:

1. Blüthner Model One - nice & bright
2. Steinway Model B - nice & mellow
3. C. Bechstein 282 & Yamaha CFIIIS (internal P-125 samples) - borderline
4. NY Steinway D - metallic / nails on chalk board
5. HB Steinway D - metallic / nails on chalk board

I have made no adjustments to the default presets. Any suggestions on improving the Steinway Ds?
Originally Posted by Burkey
Any suggestions on improving the Steinway Ds?

You can reduce the metallic sound via the velocity curve. As you get closer to MIDI value 127, the sound becomes more metallic. If you therefore limit the velocity curve, so that it doesn't get quite that high (i.e. flatten the curve), the metallic sounds will be dampened. A side effect is that that the dynamic range then is dampened as well, but that can be offset by increasing the dynamic range via the designated slider for dynamic range.
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/02/20 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Burkey
Just picked my 4 instrument packs and ran a blind piano testing through my P-125 over USB Audio.

My wife ranked them in this order, best to worst:

1. Blüthner Model One - nice & bright
2. Steinway Model B - nice & mellow
3. C. Bechstein 282 & Yamaha CFIIIS (internal P-125 samples) - borderline
4. NY Steinway D - metallic / nails on chalk board
5. HB Steinway D - metallic / nails on chalk board

I have made no adjustments to the default presets. Any suggestions on improving the Steinway Ds?

Ich would go through the numerous presets of those two, there are big differences there.
Posted By: Nordomus Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/02/20 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by Burkey
Just picked my 4 instrument packs and ran a blind piano testing through my P-125 over USB Audio.

My wife ranked them in this order, best to worst:

1. Blüthner Model One - nice & bright
2. Steinway Model B - nice & mellow
3. C. Bechstein 282 & Yamaha CFIIIS (internal P-125 samples) - borderline
4. NY Steinway D - metallic / nails on chalk board
5. HB Steinway D - metallic / nails on chalk board

I have made no adjustments to the default presets. Any suggestions on improving the Steinway Ds?

Ich would go through the numerous presets of those two, there are big differences there.
It seems that P125 has stronger high frequencies or something, still doesn't completely explain what you describe, I'd try to use equalizer and lower volume of high frequencies, also there is mellow preset I think, and you can adjust hammer hardness as well. Anyway I must agree Bluthner is awesome.
Posted By: moshuajusic Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/02/20 09:53 PM
I feel like they tweaked the response. Or maybe it's the updated sound. I had a session with v6, tried v7, but found I'd have to adjust some MIDI velocities. So I stuck with v6 in that case. Hey, v6 still sounds pretty good. lol Bluthner still sounds richest to me.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/02/20 11:08 PM
Quote
ol Bluthner still sounds richest to me.

Sure now you tell me after I already made my selections wink
Posted By: OU812 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/02/20 11:20 PM
Bluthner was my favourite too. Until I bought Noire.
Posted By: 20/20 Vision Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 12:15 AM
Can pianoteq 7 be loaded on an external drive and work? If so, is there a workstation that needs to be loaded on the PC? Or can everything be loaded on an external drive?
Posted By: johnstaf Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 12:32 AM
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.

I agree.

However, if you want it on an external drive .... you may wish to install it on that drive initially so Pianoteq has everything it needs on that drive.
Posted By: 20/20 Vision Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 01:13 AM
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.


I'm thinking for ease of transferring from laptop to laptop once I upgrade my PC. Unless there is an easier way to do the transfer.
Posted By: 20/20 Vision Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.

I agree.

However, if you want it on an external drive .... you may wish to install it on that drive initially so Pianoteq has everything it needs on that drive.

Do you know if it will run without hiccups on an external drive (i.e., without latency, pops, clicks, etc.)?
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.


I'm thinking for ease of transferring from laptop to laptop once I upgrade my PC. Unless there is an easier way to do the transfer.

Why bother transferring ?

Just download Pianoteq 7 from Modartt website ?
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.

I agree.

However, if you want it on an external drive .... you may wish to install it on that drive initially so Pianoteq has everything it needs on that drive.

Do you know if it will run without hiccups on an external drive (i.e., without latency, pops, clicks, etc.)?


No I don't.

However, Pianoteq seems to run on almost anything without issues.

So, unless you have a particularly poor external drive ... it should be fine.


If you want a reliable answer .... ask it at modartt website.
Posted By: 20/20 Vision Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.


I'm thinking for ease of transferring from laptop to laptop once I upgrade my PC. Unless there is an easier way to do the transfer.

Why bother transferring ?

Just download Pianoteq 7 from Modartt website ?


Thanks, I didn't know one could download it multiple times after purchase.
Posted By: MusicalDudeist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Pianoteq requires hardly any disk space (30 MB?) so that might not be necessary.


I'm thinking for ease of transferring from laptop to laptop once I upgrade my PC. Unless there is an easier way to do the transfer.

Why bother transferring ?

Just download Pianoteq 7 from Modartt website ?


Thanks, I didn't know one could download it multiple times after purchase.

Downloading isn't the issue... Activating it after you install it may be an issue depending on how many activations you have used.
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by MusicalDudeist
Downloading isn't the issue... Activating it after you install it may be an issue depending on how many activations you have used.

Well, considering he didn't know he could download it multiple times .....

He probably has not utilized any additional activations at this point.
Posted By: 20/20 Vision Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 02:36 AM
So, is there any benefit to downloading to an external drive? I really only wanted to protect against losing it if I change laptops.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Thanks, I didn't know one could download it multiple times after purchase.

Yes, you can download it as many times as you want. And you can have it working on up to three different devices/PCs at once. You need to activate it on a device before you can use it (and it is NOT the same installer as the demo version).

I don't think what you want (i.e. using the external HD to move from one device to the other) will work. As pointed by someone above, the amount of HD (or SSD) space required is not high, though it is not just 30MB, it is actually a few hundreds MB (268MB for Pianoteq 6.6 in this laptop I am using now).


When you update your PC, you may deactivate Pteq for that PC so that you regain that activation slot, but be careful to not do it for a PC you are using Pteq on: once inactivated, you cannot activate it on the same PC.
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
So, is there any benefit to downloading to an external drive? I really only wanted to protect against losing it if I change laptops.

No there is not.

You can just download it to whichever laptop you wish to have it on.

If you continue to move it to different laptops it can get complicated with activating/deactivating computers but you can freely download it between 3 different computers with no issues at all.

If you think you may need more options than that it would be best to contact Modartt website to discuss with them.
Posted By: 20/20 Vision Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/05/20 02:58 AM
Thank you to all who replied. This has been helpful to me. It is nice that there is no dongle requirement.
Posted By: MusicalDudeist Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/07/20 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by MusicalDudeist
Downloading isn't the issue... Activating it after you install it may be an issue depending on how many activations you have used.

Well, considering he didn't know he could download it multiple times .....

He probably has not utilized any additional activations at this point.

Cool, so now he knows both. He's ahead of the game.
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/07/20 10:47 PM
Heads up, pianomanchuck posted a comparison of the new Steinways for pianoteq 7. Sounds pretty amazing.

I hate to admit it I’ve basically abandoned garritan and ravens Croft for the time being

Pianoteq snuck up on me and seduced me lol.
With this latest edition though it’s really lovely
Playability is top notch. the response to touch is really amazing, feels like an acoustic.
I’m currently a k240 ii studio monitor headphones and a korg d1 stage piano.



Lovely reviews so far

Will post a few recordings soon as I get the usb dongle for my Mac, currently using a 8 year old laptop lol.
Covid hit and the entire country is out of Mac dongles frown
What’s surprises me though is how the old hp works surprisingly well with pianoteq at low latency settings .

Good job to the folks at pianoteq for reaching this far though.

Gone are the days when u needed to possess a significant amount of wealth to have a digital that plays like an acoustic .
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/07/20 11:22 PM
I would agree. PT 7 has grabbed me. I still use the Yamaha voices (Studio and Jazz grands are my go-to when doing this) but there's so much to explore in PT. I have all voices sounding good and suspect they could be better still. But my expected replacement Netbook hasn't arrived; the one I type on now has to multi-task.
Netbooks must be female.
Posted By: Eli26 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/08/20 12:22 AM
Quik question: I bought my code for pianoteq pro, but I'm not 100% certain as to which pianos I want. Do I have to enter all 4 when I enter my code?
Or can I get two (of the four paid for) packs and retain a credit so I can log in later and download the others?

(I bought the bluthner pack separately, and I would like to get the Bechstein amd Steingraber. I think I'd also like the petrof (less certainty there....) and for my last one, not sure which Steinway....)......
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/08/20 03:51 AM
I believe you have to choose upfront. The quickest answer to your quick question would be for you to max out your playtime with the generous free trial. What you see is what you get, pretty much.

I like your primary choices above. The new NY Steinway D is worth a spin. I also very much like the U4 for an upright sound.
Posted By: Eli26 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/08/20 04:23 AM
Thanks for the info. Funny thing is that my favorite piece right now (Schumann op 15 no 1), THE piece that made me want a more resonant piano with more control (ie pianoteq) , has a beautiful low F#..... and that's one of the notes missing in the demo pianos!

Regarding upright:
I briefly considered the U4. However, given that at this point 95% of my piano goals are classical, I want to stick with the grands, and if I want a less resonant sound, my onboard sounds can work pretty well. I do like it, and if I start to branch into jazz or pop I may get it.... it's just not the sound I'm looking for now.....
Posted By: _sem_ Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/08/20 08:38 AM
> low F#..... and that's one of the notes missing in the demo pianos!

Try installing the demo on another computer - all keys work for a while.
Posted By: danlightbulb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/13/20 09:27 PM
I just tried this and I think its come a long way since when I tried it a few years ago. I thought it had a very metallic, twangy sound before, and I'm not hearing it now.

There are silent notes though in the trial version for me, how are you getting none silent notes?

Id be interested in this but its just too expensive. I can understand a professional license costing that amount but not for a home hobby user.
Posted By: Eli26 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/14/20 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by _sem_
> low F#..... and that's one of the notes missing in the demo pianos!

Try installing the demo on another computer - all keys work for a while.
Thanks, but I have now installed the full version anyway!
Posted By: Eli26 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/14/20 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by danlightbulb
I just tried this and I think its come a long way since when I tried it a few years ago. I thought it had a very metallic, twangy sound before, and I'm not hearing it now.

There are silent notes though in the trial version for me, how are you getting none silent notes?

Id be interested in this but its just too expensive. I can understand a professional license costing that amount but not for a home hobby user.
Perhaps yo


Originally Posted by navindra
I believe you have to choose upfront. The quickest answer to your quick question would be for you to max out your playtime with the generous free trial. What you see is what you get, pretty much.

I like your primary choices above. The new NY Steinway D is worth a spin. I also very much like the U4 for an upright sound.
You were right, all chosen up front. I finally downloaded last night: Steingraeber, Petroff, Steinway D, and Bechstein. Bought Bluthner separately.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/14/20 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Eli26
You were right, all chosen up front. I finally downloaded last night: Steingraeber, Petroff, Steinway D, and Bechstein. Bought Bluthner separately.


Just to clear things up, should somebody get to this message and think they are different downloads: the installer (60MB download from the top of my head, ~270MB installed) contains most Pianoteq models (other than some free instruments downloads).

When you activate your license, it enables those that have been purchased, either those chosen with the version (Steingraeber etc. in your case) or those that you bought separately.
Posted By: Falsch Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/16/20 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Why i like Pianoteq:

1. Standalone and no fiddling with things like iLok etc.
2. Low Requirements (Space, CPU, RAM)
3. Short Loading Times
4. Many Instruments
5. A ton of settings
6. Short latency without additional work

Is it perfect? No but i can live with the small things that aren't perfect while PT does other things right where other VSTs are lacking.

Exactly.

4 years ago, I bought Pianoteq on a whim after testing it for only a few days, in a 30% off sale (or was it 50%? I don't remember). The reason for buying it was the ability to run the historical instruments from the KIVIR project. Even the small harpsichords in that project are loads better than anything provided by any digital piano manufacturer.

During that same sale I also bought the Ruckers harpsichord (because its much bigger than the two KIVIR harpsichords) and the Kremsegg 1 and 2 collections. I used version 5.x on the MP7 back then, before I had the LX-17, and had lots of fun playing old Irish airs and folk music from the 1400-1600's with it. (If one has seen some movies or played video games in the Fantasy genre that are situated in a Middle Ages type Fantasy world, you'll know how it will sound.)

Now I upgraded to version 7.x for less than half the price of a meal at a fine restaurant (which I can't have because of the COVID problems).

Thus I have (finally) reinstated the Blanchett and Grimaldi harpsichords from KIVIR, the Ruckers harpsichord, and the 8 historical piano's from the Kremsegg Collection 1 and 2, in preparation of the arrival of a new piano. (Although they do work with the LX-17, obviously; but the connections are not pretty because the connectors are on the front.) All of those instruments sound massively different than any VST that tries to be a Steinway, or a CFX, or whatever. There isn't even something such as "right" or "wrong", because you CAN'T go and play 300 year old harpsichord or piano.

I don't WANT another normal current-day piano, be it VST or modeled... the one in the LX-17 is good enough, and the one in the NV-10 is going to be better (because I like the base sound better). I want something different; thus my version of Pianoteq is decked out with historical stuff.

The harpsichords sound like harpsichords.
The historical piano's sound a lot different than any piano we have now.

You either like the sound, or you don't. It is LOADS better than the attempts of Roland to include some anemically sampled harpsichord sounds and a few pianoforte's in the LX-17.

Compared to many VST's where you often get one instrument (or one instrument in several variations), Pianoteq Stage is almost free. The Stage version costs €129, and you get two instrument packs of your choice, which would cost €49 a piece. So you pay €31 for Pianoteq itself. If you get instrument packs such as the Kremsegg 1 and Kremsegg 2 collection (and the KIVIR instruments), you'll end up with something like 20 different historical instruments for €129. I don't know about you, but having an instrument for the price of a bag of fries with a snack and a coke sounds pretty good to me. (And at some point, I may also buy the historical Karsten's collection.)

For me, it provides a great source of piano(like) historical instruments that sound good (to me), of which it is impossible to tell how accurate they are... some of the models are made off of the single surviving instrument in a museum, or even off of a replica built from original drawings... so there are instruments available to play that don't even EXIST anymore in an original form.

So Pianoteq may not be perfect, but it certainly has its place... especially if you are not expecting to acquire Hamburg Steinway for €129 that blows the €129.000 instrument to pieces.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/16/20 05:10 PM
Falsch you summed up my feeling about Pianoteq. Is it perfect. Heck no but the historical instruments sure are a blast to play. Also I brought the electric pianos too and I'm glad I did.
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 03:48 AM
And then there’s morphing. And note-per-note editing in Pro. Create your own piano.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Fleer
And then there’s morphing. And note-per-note editing in Pro. Create your own piano.


But some critics say Pianoteq doesn't sound like a piano at all. wink

I only started to play with the morphing feature. I'm glad I brought the software and upgraded to the pro version at the sale price. For my needs the software is a winner.

Peace
Posted By: Falsch Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by Fleer
And then there’s morphing. And note-per-note editing in Pro. Create your own piano.


But some critics say Pianoteq doesn't sound like a piano at all. wink

In my case, it actually doesn't, most of the time... because I bought it for the harpsichords and historical piano's.

I play piano pieces on the harpsichords.
Sometimes that causes me to use the harpsichord's extended keyboard range.
Sometimes, I use the sustain, una corda and even sostenuto on the harpsichords.
I un-reversed the pedal on the Cimbalom, so it now has "dampers", (which it normally wouldn't have).

Yes, I know...
I abuse historical instruments.
When I had an MP7, I... uhm... ok. I'll admit it. I put the church organs through the rotary speaker.
When I had the C2D, I played Bach on the Hammond and soul on the church organ.

I'm not a real piano player. Not even a real Hammond or even organ player.... I just play digital keyboard instruments in some sort of fashion. The point is, I'm having fun with this. But, I can actually practice a new piece seriously if I want to; and I do. However, after I know the piece, I'm going to play it on what-eeeeeeever (digital) keyboard instrument that catches my fancy at some point.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 05:10 PM
I brought it because of the modeled approach and the lite load on my PC. I only started to delve more into the program. Before I just used it to practice on my Casio PX5S slab at night-time.

I am having a blast with the Electric pianos add-on packs. If I had a super computer I would love to get one of the Giga size piano libraries. But for my needs Pianoteq has been wonderful. YMMV
Posted By: doudou Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by EPW
I am having a blast with the Electric pianos add-on packs. If I had a super computer I would love to get one of the Giga size piano libraries. But for my needs Pianoteq has been wonderful. YMMV

I'm not fond at all of the electric pianos of Pianoteq, I found them death and sterile. I much prefer sampled Rhodes and Wurlys in my DP

But I like pianoteq for its pianos, harpsichords and others
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 08:35 PM
I have some from IK-Multimedia and sometimes I like them and other times the Pianoteq versions.
Have no idea why I do but it is nice to have a variety to choose from.
Posted By: redfish1901 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/17/20 08:45 PM
Can one make decent music with Pianoteq? I didn't believe it, but apparently it's true:



(I was kidding about not believing it)
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/18/20 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by Fleer
And then there’s morphing. And note-per-note editing in Pro. Create your own piano.


But some critics say Pianoteq doesn't sound like a piano at all. wink

I only started to play with the morphing feature. I'm glad I brought the software and upgraded to the pro version at the sale price. For my needs the software is a winner.

Peace
Wait ‘till you’ve got the entire Studio Bundle.
Posted By: TheodorN Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/18/20 11:48 AM
@redfish1901, how do you know Kassia is using Pianoteq 7 in the Liebestraum video? I can't find any information about the source of her piano sound on her YouTube channel.

When I compare Kassia's performance, which is an amazing performance of the Lizst classic, to Arthur Rubinsteins version assumably played on a grand, the piano sound is more hollow in the former so it could well be Pianoteq Kassia is using.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBflOHufrQY
Posted By: redfish1901 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/18/20 03:43 PM
@TheodoreN, I'm one of those people who are sensitive to how different Pianoteq sounds from the real thing. It took only a few seconds of listening to recognize her "Piano".
Posted By: TheodorN Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/18/20 05:50 PM
OK I understand, and I know many members hera are good at recognizing the various piano VSTs in blind tests, but I'm horrible at it. eek

When I think of it, the Kassia piano has that hollow sound, so just that could indicate it's Pianoteq. Not that I doubt your conclusion, on the contrary I'm saying you're probably right.
Posted By: Gamma1734 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 12/27/20 01:41 PM
what i am wondering is if the new version has notable differences in sound quality also for the virtual fortepianos and harpsichords? does anybody know?
Posted By: Animisha Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 08:49 AM
Does anybody know if I can download the trial version of 7 without it changing anything to my 6 that I already have? I would like to hear if the difference could be worth it, or not.
Posted By: Tyr Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 08:51 AM
It's a separate installation. So no worries.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Animisha
Does anybody know if I can download the trial version of 7 without it changing anything to my 6 that I already have? I would like to hear if the difference could be worth it, or not.

As Tyr said. I have both, 6 and 7 installed side by side in my two laptops.
Posted By: Animisha Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 10:01 AM
Thank you! It works fine. I did a blind test and seem to slightly prefer the sound of Pianoteq 6. smile
Posted By: Jethro Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 03:19 PM
I purchased the PTQ7 Steinway D this past week because I sometimes I had to practice on my VPC-1 in my office. Figuring I've spent a couple grand on this set-up I've never found a satisfying VST that made we want to practice this instrument. Up to that point the Ravenscroft was my best sounding VST but it really is not that playable and not able to catch the nuances of a real acoustic piano at least on my set-up with notable latency. I'd have to say after purchasing the Steinway D NY it was a sonic revelation. It is really good sounding IMHO better than Ravenscroft and playing with the usual Pianoteq realism. Unlike the PTQ pianos from 6 the soundstage of these pianos are more 3 dimensional and the accuracy and sonority especially in the bass registers (which for whatever reason in most VSTS is always lacking or very inaccurate sounding more like a guitar bass) is finally there. Though not a perfect incarnation of the Steinway D I think this version captures the essence of a Steinway as good as I've ever heard through a VST. It's not surprising that they officially endorsed it. Some of the PTQ "twanginess" inherit in their piano models is still there but at least in the Steinway D it was far less noticeable. If you're going to be obsessed by minute details you are going to miss why this piano is good especially for a live practice instrument. Overall the piano plays and sounds very much like a real acoustic grand that it is a good substitute to practice on but I still would pick a real grand 10/10 times. My favorite set-up so far is close mic set to sound recording. I don't practice through my earphones much anymore but use my sound system through a 130 watt amp and powered 8 inch 200 watt powered subwoofer with NHT mini-monitor speakers. I think with a better system this piano would sound pretty amazing for a digital.
Posted By: Jethro Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 05:32 PM
I just wanted to add, that maybe for some this wouldn't be their go to piano for critical recording but for live playing and practicing through speakers this is very good. I think this is the first time I could honestly say I had musically somewhat satisfying experience playing a digital piano.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Animisha
Does anybody know if I can download the trial version of 7 without it changing anything to my 6 that I already have? I would like to hear if the difference could be worth it, or not.

I was wondering the same. It is worth it, but Standard is far better thab stage. The note by note volume editor alone is worth it but you also get another piano added for the cost of the upgrade.

I never use the P515 voices now.
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/05/21 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Animisha
Does anybody know if I can download the trial version of 7 without it changing anything to my 6 that I already have? I would like to hear if the difference could be worth it, or not.

I was wondering the same.

Yes, you can download trial version of 7 and it won't affect version 6 in any way. Both are completely independent programs.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by Jethro
Some of the PTQ "twanginess" inherit in their piano models is still there but at least in the Steinway D it was far less noticeable. If you're going to be obsessed by minute details you are going to miss why this piano is good especially for a live practice instrument. Overall the piano plays and sounds very much like a real acoustic grand that it is a good substitute to practice on but I still would pick a real grand 10/10 times. My favorite set-up so far is close mic set to sound recording.

Glad to know you are enjoying Pianoteq 7.

Here are a few things you can try that may help to get rid of the "twanginess". My favorite setup is also a close mic set.

  • Start with NY Steinway D Player Close setting. Change the mic types to perfect-omni or other omni mics. I found that in my speaker+room system, they sounded better to my ears. I like to keep the Move the mics closer to each other or far away and see what you like.
  • Try turning off reverb or reducing it.
  • Play with velocity curve if you are finding the south too metallic or too harsh. Often what you think is normal, will be translated more towards forte if the velocity curve is not right. And, that could result in sound feeling metallic or harsh. You can keep the velocity curve linear and push it leftwards to compensate for it. This isn't really a short-coming of Pianoteq modeling. It is more like finding a right match between what the midi values your keyboard sends and what Pianoteq's model expects for different dynamics.
  • What may sound best with headphones may not sound best with speakers and vice-a-versa. So, experiment for both independently.


You can use the A/B buttons to compare the 2 sound settings as you are experimenting until you dial down the one that you like.

It took me <1 hour of experiments to find the settings that I like. And after that, I haven't felt the need to change it in weeks. So, it is not a constant tweaking process. Once you get something you like, set it and forget it.

Osho
Posted By: Jethro Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Jethro
Some of the PTQ "twanginess" inherit in their piano models is still there but at least in the Steinway D it was far less noticeable. If you're going to be obsessed by minute details you are going to miss why this piano is good especially for a live practice instrument. Overall the piano plays and sounds very much like a real acoustic grand that it is a good substitute to practice on but I still would pick a real grand 10/10 times. My favorite set-up so far is close mic set to sound recording.

Glad to know you are enjoying Pianoteq 7.

Here are a few things you can try that may help to get rid of the "twanginess". My favorite setup is also a close mic set.

  • Start with NY Steinway D Player Close setting. Change the mic types to perfect-omni or other omni mics. I found that in my speaker+room system, they sounded better to my ears. I like to keep the Move the mics closer to each other or far away and see what you like.
  • Try turning off reverb or reducing it.
  • Play with velocity curve if you are finding the south too metallic or too harsh. Often what you think is normal, will be translated more towards forte if the velocity curve is not right. And, that could result in sound feeling metallic or harsh. You can keep the velocity curve linear and push it leftwards to compensate for it. This isn't really a short-coming of Pianoteq modeling. It is more like finding a right match between what the midi values your keyboard sends and what Pianoteq's model expects for different dynamics.
  • What may sound best with headphones may not sound best with speakers and vice-a-versa. So, experiment for both independently.


You can use the A/B buttons to compare the 2 sound settings as you are experimenting until you dial down the one that you like.

It took me <1 hour of experiments to find the settings that I like. And after that, I haven't felt the need to change it in weeks. So, it is not a constant tweaking process. Once you get something you like, set it and forget it.

Osho
Great! I will give it a try. Thanks!
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by Osho
Start with NY Steinway D Player Close setting. Change the mic types to perfect-omni or other omni mics. I found that in my speaker+room system, they sounded better to my ears. I like to keep the Move the mics closer to each other or far away and see what you like.

I just changed my practice preset to use perfect-omni instead of the default and it's soooooo good!

Thanks a ton for this hint!

Would you use the player perspective for a recording as well?
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 09:15 AM
Can you post that improved patch somewhere to try it? I tried the default presets but they weren’t good. I’m not sure why they never put some well made presets and people have to tinker to improve upon the sound.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 11:45 AM
+1 on the addition of presets.

Every time I tinker with the mics I mess things up.

Do they expect us all to be sound engineers? What the heck do I know about “perfect-omni” or slightly-crooked omega. I’m a musician, for god’s sake; is that not enough? Do I need a degree in engineering gibberish, too?


Disclaimer: I still like Pianoteq! wink
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 12:58 PM
I decided to still give it a try once again, I have some time today.

Well, the very first impression once again with the NY Steinway D is I don't like it and everything I hate is there but nevertheless I decided to analyze what's wrong. Two things were immediate:

- It overreacts in velocities and makes it easy to produce loud-notes in a non-linear fashion. It reminds me my struggles with Kawai digital pianos. Apparently needs touch curve adjustments
- The highest octaves are loud. I've had the same problem with the Cybrid initially which can be explained by the fact I measure velocity only. On a real piano it's the *energy* of the hammer that matters and energy is "mass x velocity^2" and because hammers progressively become lighter, in the Cybrid controller code I had to introduce gradual correction to the produced MIDI velocity the upper I go, so that the response feels linear.

So, I first attempted to correct touch response with the Calibration procedure in Pianoteq. I followed the instructions closely, played quietly, louder, etc. Well, it ended up massively WRONG! It started behaving almost like a harpsichord. Not sure what's currently wrong with the calibration procedure and if anyone has managed to produce something, but I find it totally useless.

Then I tried to manually change the curve (BTW are there predefined curves like "heavy", "light", etc? I couldn't fine such, I could only draw/drag points on the screen). So, I got a relatively better response if I use a straight line that won't end in the upper right corner but will end slightly below. However the timbre dynamics suffered. It was a Kawai Déjà vu - you can tame the loudness but the timbre suffers. I'm sure note per note editing may help here but I didn't know how to do that in the demo version.

Then I tried using the "NY Player clean" (there's no "close", do you mean "clean", Osho?) and changed the mics to perfect-omni. Didn't make huge difference TBH, but I was on headphones anyway.

At that point I decided there's potential but was a bit exhausted in tinkering. Might continue some other time. Then I switched to the binaural CFX and was relieved. And then to Garritan CFX and was WOW!

------

Bottom line: I think Modartt might need to invest some time in creating customized settings for various digital pianos and controllers. Is there anyone with a N1X who have made all these detailed note per note modifications to tame the touch response without screwing up the timbre changes, as well as compensating the high octave loudness? It seems this will be a lot of manual customization that may well take a full day. But there's potential.

Well, I still find the bass unconvincing and rubbery and the entire tone across all keys twangy.

Once again, Modartt should work towards customizations for various DP-s and controllers, or otherwise the default state of Pianoteq and the presets is rather appalling which certainly contributes to my disappointment with it. Take for example Garritan CFX - I don't customize it at all, it just plays perfectly with the default settings. Maybe hire professional pianists to prepare touch curves and detailed settings?
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 01:13 PM
I agree : I expect a product to sound good with a minimum of tweaking. (And I can’t apply many tweak with Pianoteq Stage)
@CG: Yes, there are predefined velocity curves for heavy, very heavy, light, etc. If memory serves, you right click on the velocity curve window.

Also, Modarrt has a forum for exchanging velocity curves. There is a thread with a suggestion for N1X:

N1/N1X velocity curves
Posted By: Groove On Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
@CG: Yes, there are predefined velocity curves for heavy, very heavy, light, etc. If memory serves, you right click on the velocity curve window.

Pianoteq's velocity curve presets are labeled for slow-to-fast keyboards (which actually makes more sense than light-to-heavy). For Roland's PHA4 and PHA50, I find the "Slow Keyboard" preset works nicely.

Cybergene - it would be interesting to see which velocity curve preset works better with your Cybrid piano action.

Here's the Pianoteq menu (right-click on the velocity curve)
[Linked Image]
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 02:40 PM
Seems like the note edit screen is not working on my MacBook Air M1:

[Linked Image]

I can drag this yellow triangle up and down but that's about it. Apparently there must be some graph there or something but it's not rendered...
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 02:59 PM
Never mind, after a restart it's OK.

There's something really wrong with the higher octaves. Even if I touch the keys very very lightly (observing that the MIDI velocity is in the single digits) Pianoteq generates some notes that sound just like normal attacks but quieter. It's very weird and disconnected. I'll post an example and comparison soon.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 03:23 PM
So, I think there's something wrong with high octave notes in Pianoteq. Even if I play REALLY quiet, it generates uncharacteristically loud, shrill and bright notes that click almost like a clock ticking there. I compare quietest versus loudest and it's almost the same, there's no linearity, almost no dynamics. Oddly enough the loudest tones seem to be softer in a way than the quietest ones 🙀 I compared it to the N1X and Garritan CFX and you can hear how different they are, very smooth, linear, high dynamic range, pleasant overtones, no shrill and piercing sound... Really not sure what's going on. You have some explanation?

Pianoteq - NY Steinway D Prelude

Yamaha N1X - CFX (binaural)

Garritan CFX
Hmm ... from my perspective the most outstanding feature of all three recordings is that it sounds like someone hammering nails into wood (with surprising rapidity). Overlayered this hammering, there are additional tones.

The Garritan sounds best (unsurprisingly).
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, I think there's something wrong with high octave notes in Pianoteq. Even if I play REALLY quiet, it generates uncharacteristically loud, shrill and bright notes that click almost like a clock ticking there. I compare quietest versus loudest and it's almost the same, there's no linearity, almost no dynamics. Oddly enough the loudest tones seem to be softer in a way than the quietest ones 🙀 I compared it to the N1X and Garritan CFX and you can hear how different they are, very smooth, linear, high dynamic range, pleasant overtones, no shrill and piercing sound... Really not sure what's going on. You have some explanation?

Pianoteq - NY Steinway D Prelude

Yamaha N1X - CFX (binaural)

Garritan CFX

The pianoteq recording sounds like it could do with a tad more reverb and maybe a tad less hammer hardness.

To be fair to them, it sounds quite a bit better than version 4; however, obviously lots more improvement needed by all these methods of synthesis.
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 03:55 PM
I just tried pianoteq 7 and while it is improving it still gives me the feeling of playing a synthesizer. It doesn't inspire me.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 04:01 PM
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.

That sounds reasonable. Live, you're associating what you meant to come out with what did came out; listening afterwards, you're comparing the the recordings without that comparison.

Do you have a tool that can measure the velocity of the notes played? For instance: the question would be: are the sampled pianos playing more evenly than they should given changes in velocity that one didn't meant to play but actually did?
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.

That sounds reasonable. Live, you're associating what you meant to come out with what did came out; listening afterwards, you're comparing the the recordings without that comparison.

Do you have a tool that can measure the velocity of the notes played? For instance: the question would be: are the sampled pianos playing more evenly than they should given changes in velocity that one didn't meant to play but actually did?

To clarify:

One way to objectively tell if the program were playing notes not according to your instructions would be to measure the key velocity with another program and line it up with the amplitude of the note.

(not suggesting your piano playing is off, although it might be, not so likely.)
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/06/21 07:22 PM
There are no unpredictable jumps. It’s very obvious: quite velocities would always produce bright attack notes. No need to measure and correlate.
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 02:03 AM
Though I really appreciate CG’s efforts to get to grips with Pianoteq, I’m not hearing what he’s hearing, so I guess we’ll basically agree to disagree. Each of us has a different set of ears and CG’s pair may be differently inclined than ours.
Posted By: Burkey Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.

That sounds reasonable. Live, you're associating what you meant to come out with what did came out; listening afterwards, you're comparing the the recordings without that comparison.

Do you have a tool that can measure the velocity of the notes played? For instance: the question would be: are the sampled pianos playing more evenly than they should given changes in velocity that one didn't meant to play but actually did?

To clarify:

One way to objectively tell if the program were playing notes not according to your instructions would be to measure the key velocity with another program and line it up with the amplitude of the note.

(not suggesting your piano playing is off, although it might be, not so likely.)
Yes, your can even write your own MIDI velocity value displayer in about 10 lines of code (I wrote one in Java if anyone wants it).

Even better, you can send a specific velocity note to Pianoteq and record the audio it produces, then measure the amplitude and frequencies.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 07:53 AM
Just play the last 2-3 octaves as softly as possible. It’s immediately obvious. It can’t be heard on a recording because you don’t know how I played there. It’s a playability issue.
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- It overreacts in velocities and makes it easy to produce loud-notes in a non-linear fashion. It reminds me my struggles with Kawai digital pianos. Apparently needs touch curve adjustments
- The highest octaves are loud. I've had the same problem with the Cybrid initially which can be explained by the fact I measure velocity only. On a real piano it's the *energy* of the hammer that matters and energy is "mass x velocity^2" and because hammers progressively become lighter, in the Cybrid controller code I had to introduce gradual correction to the produced MIDI velocity the upper I go, so that the response feels linear.

When I have some time I will try to repro this and see if I can understand the problem.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, I first attempted to correct touch response with the Calibration procedure in Pianoteq. I followed the instructions closely, played quietly, louder, etc. Well, it ended up massively WRONG! It started behaving almost like a harpsichord. Not sure what's currently wrong with the calibration procedure and if anyone has managed to produce something, but I find it totally useless.

I agree, I don't understand the point of this calibration tool and find it to be totally useless as well. At best, it helps understand the capabilities of the controller, but I don't find the results useful.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Then I tried to manually change the curve. So, I got a relatively better response if I use a straight line that won't end in the upper right corner but will end slightly below. However the timbre dynamics suffered. It was a Kawai Déjà vu - you can tame the loudness but the timbre suffers. I'm sure note per note editing may help here but I didn't know how to do that in the demo version.

I think what you are saying is accurate -- if you modify the velocity curve in the way that you did, timbre dynamics are bound to suffer because the same MIDI range will be mapped to a truncated timbre range in Pianoteq.

One way to modify timbre dynamics I think would be to modify things like hammer hardness at different velocities.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Then I tried using the "NY Player clean" (there's no "close", do you mean "clean", Osho?) and changed the mics to perfect-omni. Didn't make huge difference TBH, but I was on headphones anyway.

There are binaural options as well, which I haven't tried since I don't use headphones. However you can adjust the head position and such so that it is individually customized.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
At that point I decided there's potential but was a bit exhausted in tinkering. Might continue some other time. Then I switched to the binaural CFX and was relieved. And then to Garritan CFX and was WOW!

I agree that it is exhausting until you get a workflow down, and totally agreed on presets. This is valuable feedback.

Modartt should invest here. If not in software, they should have a thick-skinned human resource -- a Modartt James on the forum to help diagnose these issues and identify the proper adjustments.
Posted By: Bostonmoores Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 04:51 PM
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 04:57 PM
So you’re asking for a virtual instrument that can go out of tune just like your acoustic does? Thank you, but NO!
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 05:23 PM
Extending that concept, I would also suggest that the virtual strings, hammers, action parts get broken from time to time and you have to pay Modartt for a replacement, so that you can play the same note again.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Extending that concept, I would also suggest that the virtual strings, hammers, action parts get broken from time to time and you have to pay Modartt for a replacement, so that you can play the same note again.

I thought that Pianoteq pro allowed unison detuning (detuning of individual strings)?
Posted By: ambrozy Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
So you’re asking for a virtual instrument that can go out of tune just like your acoustic does? Thank you, but NO!

Actually all pianos are always out of tune and not because they are not tuned precisely but because of their design, struck strings have inharmonicity and because of that octaves for example needs to be wider than perfect theoretical octaves to sound clean, in pianoteq pro you can control that octave stretch to your liking and also unison width which when tuned perfectly will decrease sustain (default setting is very slightly out of tune), try it for yourself, real acoustic pianos behave in similar way, but only those of very high quality, cheaper ones are usually not made precisely enouhg that strings in unisons can be tuned perfeclty
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 07:09 PM
So Pianoteq Pro version is too perfect and that is why CyberGene doesn't like it (JK) LOL
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 07:12 PM
if you want to go down the route of having virtual piano mimic acoustic piano then we must allow the possibility of rodents in the piano! Neighbor had them and so did my aunt in upright pianos. So no I don't want Modartt to model it perfectly smile Sorry if TMI wink
Posted By: stamkorg Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonmoores
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

Yes,
In the same philosophy,
Some years ago I proposed such a feature on the Pianoteq forum.
The idea was to introduce on option that allows an automatic but minor detuning day after day of use.
This very small changes every day (clearly noticeable only after a couple of weeks) could help to prevent the boring effect that we can have with virtual instruments.
The idea was not retained wink
Posted By: Bostonmoores Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 07:57 PM
Yeah, pretty much what I was thinking. Our physical pianos are constantly changing daily based on the environment they are in. So many factors and variables can change the sound. It might not be noticed daily, but over time those subtle changes to the variables would add up.
Also, I think if you could 'speed up the changes' with like a time warp. Say ' under these conditions over the next 6 months with my piano in this environment, it now sounds like x'.

It might help me stop playing with presets and things and just let the preset evolve organically.
Posted By: stamkorg Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 08:08 PM
And I am sure they can do that!
Posted By: Scherbakov Alex Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 08:58 PM
CG, сould you add midi messages to your audio examples. Then other users will be able to compare the sound on their systems and in their programs. It may not be very clear what feel and speed of playing on your keyboard certain midi speeds produce. But when you talk about the peculiarities of the sound at certain midi speeds - this can be understandable because other users can check these midi files and compare the sound.


Comparing Pianoteq to the Garritan Library:

- it may be necessary to set the "unison width" value to 1.4-1.6 in Pianoteq for comparison by the library.

-Library sounds ~ 12dB quieter than Pianoteq. (when compared out of the box). You need to lower the volume on the Pianoteq for comparison.

-the pedal does not work properly in the library. I can't use the pickup pedal - when old harmonies are "cleaned up" and a new play is added on top (this comes out awkwardly). The half-pedal cuts off the sound and has no duration. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

-In the library, the endings of chords in staccato sound artificially. They seem to break off. It doesn't sound neat. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

- the staccato game is very strange at the library. The tails of the notes are not very neatly chopped off. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

- the high notes are a little more rounded at the library. I have to agree.

- I hear recording noise when playing high notes. And the noise is cut off when the note is released. Not very nice. Not natural. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

-the library has a few notes that are not tuned the way I would like. And nothing can be done about it. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

-but the biggest problem is the limited set of layers in the library. This is clearly felt with your fingers when you play (even on my keyboard, which uses rubber sensors (like a TV remote ... in principle, like almost all other keyboards). This is a jump in timbre between layers. It is simply impossible to practice. Pianoteq has no problem with this. ..

- all the same, the development of the timbre of the library is more natural. And it can be well used in a mix for some kind of music. But this is not suitable for daily activities. Especially if later you need to play a real instrument. The library does not react and does not interact with the performer as fully as Pianoteq does.

CG, you kind of have a nice instrument from Yamaha. With real mechanics. Have you thought about putting your optical sensor into it in order to find out and correlate (compare) the midi values at different speeds? What values does the tool give and what can be obtained from your measurements? Curious if there is any standardization in this? How do the midi speed values for different hammers correlate at different speeds (bass and treble)? This is a rather curious question.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 09:14 PM
« This is a jump in timbre between layers. It is simply impossible to practice. Pianoteq has no problem with this. .. »

Perhaps the VSL products have not this drawback. I have read Synchron product have 60 levels (each level covers 2 MIDI values), and Vienna Imperial has up to 100 levels !
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by ambrozy
Originally Posted by Pete14
So you’re asking for a virtual instrument that can go out of tune just like your acoustic does? Thank you, but NO!

Actually all pianos are always out of tune and not because they are not tuned precisely but because of their design, struck strings have inharmonicity and because of that octaves for example needs to be wider than perfect theoretical octaves to sound clean, in pianoteq pro you can control that octave stretch to your liking and also unison width which when tuned perfectly will decrease sustain (default setting is very slightly out of tune), try it for yourself, real acoustic pianos behave in similar way, but only those of very high quality, cheaper ones are usually not made precisely enouhg that strings in unisons can be tuned perfeclty

Well look at you, going into full-nerd mode. Still, NO!
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- It overreacts in velocities and makes it easy to produce loud-notes in a non-linear fashion. It reminds me my struggles with Kawai digital pianos. Apparently needs touch curve adjustments
- The highest octaves are loud. I've had the same problem with the Cybrid initially which can be explained by the fact I measure velocity only. On a real piano it's the *energy* of the hammer that matters and energy is "mass x velocity^2" and because hammers progressively become lighter, in the Cybrid controller code I had to introduce gradual correction to the produced MIDI velocity the upper I go, so that the response feels linear.
Here's my attempt to repro the issue in a fair and semi-rigorous method:



This plays the higher octave keys with MIDI velocity 5 to 40 in increments of 5. I made a mistake and the test goes above high C, but it does not affect the results.

Keep an eye on the velocity graph and keep an eye on the green audio level indicator.

This is the waveform:

[Linked Image]

I could not see, hear, or perceive any issues. This is a linear velocity curve and, to me, it's behaving exactly as expected. For different behavior in the higher octaves, the curve would have to be modified.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/07/21 10:51 PM
I'm not sure I was understood correctly. It's not about programming it through MIDI and then observing the produced volume. I'm not even sure it's the volume that's the problem. Rather the attack, the harmonic content or something like that.

Unfortunately it seems the only way to notice it is to just play it very lightly and listen with your ears. It acts weirdly and is unlike any acoustic, digital or virtual piano. It just plops a bit too much instead of creating a soft sound. Might be something related to the N1X MIDI but I'm not sure why that would be since the N1X is generating low enough MIDI velocities and works OK with other pianos.

Once again, listening to my demos it's not very obvious, so that wasn't a good demo. You just need to play it. I guess you may compare it to the NV10 internal sound. Just listen how the NV10 reacts to very light touch in high octaves and to gradual increase of the touch force. Then do the same with Pianoteq. It sounds like a machine gun (but that's a very big word, I'm using it to make my point, the effect is subtler than a machine gun but has the same characteristics)
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 01:12 AM
My thought was that MIDI would make it more objective, since you can see exactly what is being played and with what velocity. I'll play it by ear some more later to see if I understand it.

One thing to call out if you're comparing Pianoteq to CFX -- you'll want to make sure the volume for soft and loud are about comparable. Pianoteq makes it easy to adjust this with the Dynamics and Volume sliders.
Posted By: Burkey Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
... Rather the attack, the harmonic content or something like that.
Is same problem evident on the Blüthner Model 1?
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 04:39 AM
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Osho
Start with NY Steinway D Player Close setting. Change the mic types to perfect-omni or other omni mics. I found that in my speaker+room system, they sounded better to my ears. I like to keep the Move the mics closer to each other or far away and see what you like.

I just changed my practice preset to use perfect-omni instead of the default and it's soooooo good!

Thanks a ton for this hint!

Would you use the player perspective for a recording as well?

Cool, I am glad it helped. No, I typically won't use the player perspective for a recording. But, I find it perfect for practicing, especially when listening with monitor speakers. I don't use headphones much, so I am not sure if that will be ideal for headphones.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 04:59 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Then I tried using the "NY Player clean" (there's no "close", do you mean "clean", Osho?) and changed the mics to perfect-omni. Didn't make huge difference TBH, but I was on headphones anyway.
Yes, I meant NY Steinway D Player Clean. My bad.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Bottom line: I think Modartt might need to invest some time in creating customized settings for various digital pianos and controllers.
Yes, I agree with that. It may be that their presets are done by recording engineers who want a sound that just works for a studio - but IMHO, it is not the right for pianist playing at home wanting to feel like a grand piano is in their home.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.
I agree with this. And, this is precisely the reason why I find youtube videos (or audio recordings) of VSTs totally useful for deciding whether to buy a VST. They all sound wonderful in those audio recordings/youtube demos. But, when I play the VST with my fingers and listen with my ears, that's when I find whether I will actually like the VST or not.

Originally Posted by navindra
I could not see, hear, or perceive any issues. This is a linear velocity curve and, to me, it's behaving exactly as expected. For different behavior in the higher octaves, the curve would have to be modified.
I couldn't hear any issues either. But, as CG said, it is a playability issue and hard to communicate via a recording.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Can you post that improved patch somewhere to try it? I tried the default presets but they weren’t good. I’m not sure why they never put some well made presets and people have to tinker to improve upon the sound.
Here are the couple of preset fxp files that I like for practicing with monitor speakers. They have 0 reverb, so feel free to add some as per your taste, if so inclined.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/78uwaaeafo4d71l/NY%20Steinway%20D%20Player%20Clean%20Mod.fxp?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnmt1mzs6gfqdsc/C.%20Bechstein%20DG%20Player%20Mod.fxp?dl=0

I wouldn't use these for recordings - but for practicing with speakers, I find them perfect in my room.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by Bostonmoores
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

Pianoteq already has this feature. There is a slider at the bottom: Condition. It can be set from "Mint" to "Worn". And, it basically ages the piano. Even the GUI changes to reflect the condition of the instrument smile.

Osho
Posted By: stamkorg Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Bostonmoores
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

Pianoteq already has this feature. There is a slider at the bottom: Condition. It can be set from "Mint" to "Worn". And, it basically ages the piano. Even the GUI changes to reflect the condition of the instrument smile.

Osho

It is not automated, it would be cool if this function could evolve by itself day after day
Posted By: loydb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/08/21 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by stamkorg
It is not automated, it would be cool if this function could evolve by itself day after day

This is how we end up with Skynet.
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/09/21 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by loydb
Originally Posted by stamkorg
It is not automated, it would be cool if this function could evolve by itself day after day

This is how we end up with Skynet.

I am fine with this as long as Skynet builds robots that are so efficient that a 9' Concert grand acoustic piano can be produced for $1000 smile. Freedom of humanity is so overrated...:).

Osho
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/09/21 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by navindra
Modartt should invest here. If not in software, they should have a thick-skinned human resource -- a Modartt James on the forum to help diagnose these issues and identify the proper adjustments.

Being a French company, the rep would be: Modartt Jacques. 😁
Posted By: SeaDrive Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/09/21 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by loydb
This is how we end up with Skynet.


Welcome to the Skynet Piano Network (SPN)......... would you like to play an etude? :-)
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/09/21 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by SeaDrive
Originally Posted by loydb
This is how we end up with Skynet.


Welcome to the Skynet Piano Network (SPN)......... would you like to play an etude? :-)

What you don't like Etude's. I shall now take over your domicile and only play Etudes wink This is SPN!
Posted By: Scherbakov Alex Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 06:41 PM
V7.2!
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
V7.2!

Interesting:

7.2.0 (2021/02/12)

  • NY Steinway D update: power/duration increased in the bass range, upper two octaves revoiced in the ppp-mp range.
  • Fixed bug in the harmonic and sustain pedals resonances.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by navindra
upper two octaves revoiced in the ppp-mp range.
Ha! That’s exactly what I was complaining about. Did they read this thread?

I would test it but I’ve finally caught COVID and have almost no energy to stand up for the last two days...
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by navindra
upper two octaves revoiced in the ppp-mp range.
Ha! That’s exactly what I was complaining about. Did they read this thread?

I would test it but I’ve finally caught COVID and have almost no energy to stand up for the last two days...

Prays sent your way Gene for a speedy recovery.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 07:45 PM
If you don't have yourself a Pulse oximeter you should get one right away to keep checking your oxygen level Gene. If it goes down you need to get to the hospital stat!
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 07:46 PM
Thanks, please let’s not turn this into a COVID talk though 😀 It will certainly get closed by the mods!
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 07:54 PM
My wife was first, she was sick for a week and I was OK and thought I was somehow immune but... Couldn’t get away with it. All test confirmed. I have a pulse oximeter since it saved my mom in November, because based on a very low reading and despite feeling rather well she was urgently admitted to hospital and put on oxygen, they said right about time.

Now back to Pianoteq!
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 08:01 PM
Okay Gene. Hope you get to test the new 7.2 version and let us know your true feelings smile

I have been to busy to give the latest a whirl. I'm typing this at work frown
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/13/21 08:42 PM
Hang in there, CG, wish you a speedy recovery!

I was also wondering if Modartt had received your feedback... it's an interesting coincidence, for sure.
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 03:15 AM
There’s no such thing like coincidence. Take care, CG.
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 04:36 AM
Take care CG and best wishes for a quick and speedy recovery!

Osho
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 08:35 AM
Be well soon GyberGene. I tried out NY Steinway in version 7.2 yesterday and it's better balanced now so maybe you'll like it better. Personally I don't get along with the the Steinway D:s in Pianoteq. I like the B much more along with the Petrof (although they are very different from each other).
Posted By: vagfilm Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 01:40 PM
CG: be sure to try PTQ only after you have fully recovered... One never knows what may happen. On the other hand, I was told that Pfizer is actively working on a vaccine for modeled sounds (it needs 3 doses...). Get well soon.
Posted By: Burkey Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve finally caught COVID and have almost no energy to stand up for the last two days...
Oh no frown Get plenty of vitamin K, aspirin, and sleep.
Posted By: TheodorN Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 02:06 PM
Get well soon, CyberGene.
Just got 7, still comparing 6 to 7, but noticing a technical issue. I've installed both 6 and 7 on two computers. Both work fine with ASIO4all on one computer. On the other, 6 works fine with ASIO4all, but 7 doesn't - it won't even load it up, and I have to default to Real ASIO. Not a big deal, since that one is for the missuz, and she uses it for the percussion sounds with her MalletStation, so 6 is fine, but it's odd nonetheless. Anyone else having this issue with 7?
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by vagfilm
CG: be sure to try PTQ only after you have fully recovered... One never knows what may happen. On the other hand, I was told that Pfizer is actively working on a vaccine for modeled sounds (it needs 3 doses...). Get well soon.

I've had the Astra-Zenica one. And for the first time ever, the SteinwayD on PTq sounded grand! Best wishes CG. Keep taking the tablets.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 07:34 PM
GC might actually like PTQ because of Covid. Not a great selling point wink
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by navindra
upper two octaves revoiced in the ppp-mp range.
Ha! That’s exactly what I was complaining about. Did they read this thread?

I would test it but I’ve finally caught COVID and have almost no energy to stand up for the last two days...

Hi Gene,

Careful when you think you've recovered: it can have a second wind if you try to do some work before you have really recovered. Hope you feel better soon 😎.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by vagfilm
CG: be sure to try PTQ only after you have fully recovered... One never knows what may happen. On the other hand, I was told that Pfizer is actively working on a vaccine for modeled sounds (it needs 3 doses...). Get well soon.

I've had the Astra-Zenica one. And for the first time ever, the SteinwayD on PTq sounded grand! Best wishes CG. Keep taking the tablets.

Don't say that: you might put off MacMacMac from having his vaccine shot!! 😉
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/14/21 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by vagfilm
CG: be sure to try PTQ only after you have fully recovered... One never knows what may happen. On the other hand, I was told that Pfizer is actively working on a vaccine for modeled sounds (it needs 3 doses...). Get well soon.

I've had the Astra-Zenica one. And for the first time ever, the SteinwayD on PTq sounded grand! Best wishes CG. Keep taking the tablets.

Don't say that: you might put off MacMacMac from having his vaccine shot!! 😉

Now that one had me LOL
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/15/21 08:37 AM
Power increased in the bass range. Now that is what I like to hear laugh. Just joking, going to try this out tonight to see what has changed.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/24/21 05:27 PM
Found some time to test Pianoteq 7.2 today. Well, the issue I had with the upper two octaves is improved. Apparently Modartt are reading this thread and understood what I meant smile

What can I say... It's not my piano. My main issue is there's some dullness to the sound, and there's lack of perception for space. And I went through all the NY Steinway D presets but there's not this nice real 3D separation of the sound. It's all too boxed and nasal as though coming from another room.

That being said, it's indeed the best Pianoteq so far but is simply not my piano. I also went through all piano models back to the Grotrian and the only two models that I like are the NY and Hamburg Steinways. Many of them have some plasticky bass especially when hit hard. The high octaves are too bell-like.

With the NY Steinway it's the best so far but I realize a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like, for lack of better words. I think a particular problem is also that there's no reverb that works good across the patches. It's always artificial. I believe the basic raw sound is just too synthetic to start with.

I also realize sample based libraries, especially modern ones include multi-mic perspectives that add a very realistic ambience. I miss that in Pianoteq where the reverberation sounds like an effect and not like something real.

I didn't want this to be some insulting/bashing post. I see progress in Pianoteq. It's not bad even for my taste. But not great either... Maybe! Maybe it can be made better through better reverberation? I know we speculated that they start with samples and approach them through modeling. If that's true, how about they start with multi-mic samples that include a real studio ambiance and approach that through modeling without resorting to fake algorithmic reverb or convolution reverb?
Posted By: lvercaut Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/24/21 05:55 PM
Hi CyberGene,
first things first, i hope and i think (since you spend some time with Pianoteq) you're are recovering well from that Covid monster.
No problem if you don't like Pianoteq to much. I remember you really didn't like Rolands modelling also.
I hated Pianoteq in version 4 (the one i bought) but now really,really love the current version 7.2 with that NY D grand.
To each his own ? Absolute!
As for reverb, i think we all need Seventh Heaven from Liquidsonics ( Ilok dongle or account needed frown ) there is a 14 days full functioning trial ). Haven't tried myself (but will do when Ilok is supported for Silicon M1 macs, in my case)

Take care of yourself !
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/24/21 06:00 PM
Thanks for the update CG and the positive bit is that you're back on your feet!

Here's another interesting update. Yesterday, I came across this video on Robert Estrin's personal pianos. He was born into a family of piano players and has personally owned many magnificent grands...



What's the surprise? In the comments, he reveals that he uses nothing but Pianoteq for the hybrid action he invented:

Quote
LivingPianosVideos
6 months ago
I use PianoTeq virtual piano which is a physical modeled piano rather than sampled which gives expressiveness. It's also really easy to use since you don't have to load massive sample libraries.
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/24/21 06:49 PM
CG,

Glad to see you posting and playing with Pianoteq - you must be feeling better.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
It's not bad even for my taste.

We, the Pianoteq lovers, will declare victory and move on smile.

BTW, I am curious if you had a chance to try the 2 FXP I had posted. I would love to hear your take on these (good or bad).

Osho
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/24/21 07:03 PM
Osho, no, sorry I forgot to test your patches. I’ll do when I have time.

As to COVID, I think I got lucky and it was rather easy for me: a week of really bad fatigue where I felt totally wasted throughout most of the day. Found it difficult to even hold my iPhone for more than a few minutes. The X-ray showed an initial stage of lung infection and so I had a 10-day course of antibiotics which I finished today. I’ll have to take blood thinners for a month and besides the slight cough I still have, I feel great smile So, back to PW and regular business.
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 02:37 AM
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

Do you turn off reverb completely on Pianoteq before piping to the external reverb? Or do you keep some Pianoteq resonance to simulate the cabinet?
Posted By: FloRi89 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

Do you turn off reverb completely on Pianoteq before piping to the external reverb? Or do you keep some Pianoteq resonance to simulate the cabinet?

I think there are different settings for those. Personally I had the best results when turning the PT reverb off completely, but mix and match might also be a good way.
Posted By: Rhodes74 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
...a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like

As from a badly miked grand?
Seriously, i found dramatic improvements in liveliness (for my taste) with adapted mic positions.
For me the most important parameter and reason o upgrade from stage version.

Still, your hassle with reverb might be more specific. I must confess i like it dry...

Keep feeling great!

-Rhodes74
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
...a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like

As from a badly miked grand?

I don't know, these things are hard to describe with words. I think the best description so far of this inherent Pianoteq shortcoming has been "piano sound coming from another room". It's improved indeed, as I said, so in version 7.2 Pianoteq (and only NY Steinway D model) is *almost* usable for me. I can really see how other people might find it excellent though. It's just not according to my taste yet.

To summarize, the things that need improvement:
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications
- Reverberation that is not convincing and sounds more like an effect than real space
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I also realize sample based libraries, especially modern ones include multi-mic perspectives that add a very realistic ambience.

This point baffles me completely: how can anything that includes more than two microphone positions lead to a realistic ambience? We only have two ears, and their position relatively to each other is rather fixed. Therefore, a binaural setup should be most realistic, and anything that blends quite different microphone positions together ought to sound very un-realistic.

Unless of course, realistic = sound from professional CD recordings.

That said, I agree that Pianoteq suffers from unrealistic reverb; by now I think it is the major deficiency of Pianoteq.
Posted By: Rhodes74 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
Again, this whole spacial thing can be addressed by adjusting the mic positions. Did you try that?

Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

C'mon!
I really dig your sophistication, but this one?


-Rodes74
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
Again, this whole spacial thing can be addressed by adjusting the mic positions. Did you try that?

Yes, I experimented with mic presets, as well as moving mics around on the virtual screen. This boxy character stays the same.

Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

C'mon!
I really dig your sophistication, but this one?
Not sure what you mean. Do you suggest that I have to make these modifications rather than complaining? If so, well, yes, I agree but I am not highly motivated. I'd be glad if anyone with a N1X who is more dedicated to Pianoteq does that and I just use it. See, I'm trying all my best here to try and evaluate the latest version of Pianoteq but I don't have too much free time to try my best to prepare Pianoteq behaving good in terms of touch response and timbre. Just for instance, I have no such problems with Garritan CFX which is playable by default.

BTW, I sense kind of passive-aggressiveness smile I'm OK with that, but I'd like to point out how I also mentioned my issue with the last two octaves and people didn't really believe me, coming up with suggestions to measure volume vs MIDI and whatnot, while at the same time Modartt fixed it for 7.2. What I mean is, once you overcome the reaction to be against me personally (because you might not like my criticism of Pianoteq), you might realize I am trying to be positive here and give an objective evaluation and provide help to Modartt. I believe I am objective here. Besides, I trust my ears and fingers the most because they have rarely misled me.
Posted By: Rhodes74 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yes, I experimented with mic presets, as well as moving mics around on the virtual screen. This boxy character stays the same.

Thanks, that was my question.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

C'mon!
I really dig your sophistication, but this one?


BTW, I sense kind of passive-aggressiveness smile I'm OK with that

Sense midleading! I'm normally blamed for being direct.
Just take this reverence as written, nothing between the line.


Originally Posted by CyberGene
What I mean is, once you overcome the reaction to be against me personally (because you might not like my criticism of Pianoteq), you might realize I am trying to be positive here and give an objective evaluation and provide help to Modartt.

What gives you the impression i'm fighting for any product or even against you?
Will take it as misunderstanding rather than insinuation.

I just tried to help because i found the mic parameters to be a possible solution.
And your comment on touch response really surprised me.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I trust my ears and fingers the most because they have rarely misled me.

Amen. That's your measure*

*(And i did not pronounce "your"!)

-Rhodes74
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 02:34 PM
All is good! 🍻
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

That's the best feature in PTq. Must admit it'd be great to d/l the thing and just play it. You can set the velocity curve by touch, but it never comes out right. best to design you own preferred characteristics so you get a great transition from pp to ff. The nkote by note editing is useful for correcting most inbalances due to whatever reason. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate otherwise it'd never sound like an acoustic.
Detune the piano, whack up the triple string width and resonances, and you're in your favourite pub . . .
Posted By: pianogabe Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

I just downloaded FabFilter Pro-R (trial) to use with pianoteq. Sounds indeed great but I do get a substantial delay when I add this as an fx in my DAW (Reaper). Pianoteq itself only has minimal latency. Is there a way around this for live playing?
Posted By: pianogabe Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 03:06 PM
Disregard my question: I found a predelay buttorn somewhere and was happy that I could set it to zero!

Fleer, do you have recommendations with respect to nice settings?
Posted By: SeaDrive Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 08:00 PM
I apologize if my question has already been answered, but it would take me a while to read through 19 pages of this post, so...

I installed the PTQ 7 trial version on my MacBook Pro last week. Now I'm ready to buy the Standard version, but before I do, I just wanted to clarify the procedure.

My understanding is that I'm going to download the installation file from the "user area" on the Modartt site. When I run the install, does it automagically delete (or overwrite) the trial version, or do I wind up with two PTQ installations? Should I delete the trial version before installing the full version?

TIA!
If I understand it correctly (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), there's just one version installed. It's just that the paid version is fully unlocked compared to the trial version.
Posted By: SeaDrive Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 08:46 PM
That's what I was hoping would be the case (just enter a license # into a textbox somewhere), but when I click on the Update license button, I get a message that says:

Quote
This is the trial version of Pianoteq -- if you have a Pianoteq license, you will need to download and install the full version of Pianoteq from your user area at...

So... that's why I'm asking if I should delete the trial version before installing the full version. I read through the FAQ on the Modartt site, but didn't see this question addressed there.
Hmm, sorry, I guess it's been a while. I don't recall having to uninstall anything; I think I just installed the full version on top of the trial version.
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by SeaDrive
That's what I was hoping would be the case (just enter a license # into a textbox somewhere), but when I click on the Update license button, I get a message that says:

Quote
This is the trial version of Pianoteq -- if you have a Pianoteq license, you will need to download and install the full version of Pianoteq from your user area at...

So... that's why I'm asking if I should delete the trial version before installing the full version. I read through the FAQ on the Modartt site, but didn't see this question addressed there.

I would recommend to delete the trial version. And, then download the full version from user area and install it. This worked for me. If you have any presets, velocity curves etc. that you have saved, you may want to 'remember' them or save the presets to files.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

Do you turn off reverb completely on Pianoteq before piping to the external reverb? Or do you keep some Pianoteq resonance to simulate the cabinet?

I think there are different settings for those. Personally I had the best results when turning the PT reverb off completely, but mix and match might also be a good way.

+1. I always turn Pianoteq reverb off. I like the sound dry with speakers - so I get whatever is the natural reverb from the room.

Osho
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
To summarize, the things that need improvement:
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications
- Reverberation that is not convincing and sounds more like an effect than real space

These are all valid criticisms.

Re: boxy sound - I think it is due to the choice of the default mics in Pianoteq presets (not the mic positions - but the mics themselves), combined with some speaker systems. CG, what is the speaker system you are using? Is it N1X's built in speakers? I did not have a good experience with Pianoteq's sound with NV10's speaker system - but it sounds totally different (i.e. better) with monitor speakers.

Re: Touch response, I did not have issue with NV10's action. But, I suspect your sense of what attack should be for different velocities might be more refined than mine.

Re: reverberation, I agree. I always turn Pianoteq reverb off.

Osho
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/25/21 10:10 PM
Osho, I use only headphones. In very rare cases I play my N1X through speakers but I wouldn't use VST-s (Garritan CFX which is what I regularly use, or Pianoteq) with speakers since that's too rare case to bother connecting the computer and all the stuff. So, having a realistic reverberation is very important for me because with headphones it would be too dry.
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/26/21 03:34 AM
CG, with headphones, I think you will have to use some external reverb with Pianoteq reverb turned off to get a good sound. I am not a big fan of Pianoteq's sound via headphones with built-in reverb.

Osho
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/26/21 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Disregard my question: I found a predelay buttorn somewhere and was happy that I could set it to zero!

Fleer, do you have recommendations with respect to nice settings?
Depends on your taste, of course, but the Piano Hall preset is mighty sweet in FabFilter Pro-R.
Forgot to add I also like ValhallaRoom, EWQL Spaces and Eventide Stereo Room 2016 for Pianoteq.
And there’s a unique one for sound design if you’ve got Pianoteq Standard or Pro and you’re into the new morphing function: Zynaptiq Adaptiverb. Simply astonishing.
Posted By: navindra Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/26/21 05:11 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm OK with that, but I'd like to point out how I also mentioned my issue with the last two octaves and people didn't really believe me, coming up with suggestions to measure volume vs MIDI and whatnot, while at the same time Modartt fixed it for 7.2.

For my part, I was merely trying to objectively quantify and understand your feedback about the dynamic response.

I'm not sure what exactly is objectionable about attempting to repro an issue via MIDI. It was totally a good faith effort and attempt to demonstrate the bug, even if it didn't work. I believe I agreed with quite a few of your points as well, and I've also given the same feedback regarding reverb in the past.

Incidentally, David B had similar feedback about the N1X response with a completely different virtual piano but was able to resolve it with some adjustments to the voicing. Tyrone might have had a similar set of adjustments for the N1X and Pianoteq.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/26/21 08:46 AM
Navindra, I didn't want to sound denigrating towards you. I understand my initial demo and description wasn't good enough to demo the problem with the last two octaves which is why a few people including you suggested that I measure. And I think it would have been much easier to just test manually by playing very quietly. Anyway, it's good they fixed it after all. When working on the beta team for Grotrian I noticed Modartt are very responsive towards this type of feedback (well, we were expected to do exactly that) and so they would constantly fix this and that in a similar fashion. It's just a personal opinion of me, but I think there's a slight issue with that approach and it's different people have different taste towards piano sound and IMO the final result isn't very coherent. I'd rather prefer they hire one mastermind, a professional pianist for instance, who would make the patch sounding exactly as he wants, note by note. Also, it would be good if they tailor the MIDI response for various digital pianos.
Posted By: loydb Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/26/21 04:24 PM
Yeah, it's just one version. You authorize it when you buy it.
Posted By: Jethro Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 02/26/21 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
...a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like

As from a badly miked grand?

I don't know, these things are hard to describe with words. I think the best description so far of this inherent Pianoteq shortcoming has been "piano sound coming from another room". It's improved indeed, as I said, so in version 7.2 Pianoteq (and only NY Steinway D model) is *almost* usable for me. I can really see how other people might find it excellent though. It's just not according to my taste yet.

To summarize, the things that need improvement:
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications
- Reverberation that is not convincing and sounds more like an effect than real space
I know what you are referring to. The nasally, boxy, twangy effect is something Modartt has not been able to completely eliminate though it is better especially with the Steinway D in PTQ7. I'm very impressed with the modelling they were able to achieve in the lower registers of the Steinway D which for me is very convincing when playing live on my VPC-1 through monitor speakers. It's got that bite and accuracy that has been missing in previous PTQ versions and something I feel is missing in most VSTs.

I recently purchased an inexpensive USB audio interface (Behringer) to use with a 2011 mac mini and it improved the latency and sound of my Ravenscroft piano. I did lower my buffer size to 128 and reduced sampling to 44khz to further improve performance. Once again that overall character of a grand piano taken as a whole I believe is better captured by PTQ, but Ravenscroft produces a cleaner sweeter sound with PTQ Steinway D having a sawtoothy waveform- like character to it. This also always bothered me a little when comparing PTQ to Ravenscroft.

When using earphones I used to be able to set sound output to "binaural" with good results but with new multi-layered 3 dimensional modelling they use in PTQ, binaural sounds too washed out so I don't use that setting anymore when listening through earphones. In fact, I don't use earphones at all I just turn the volume down for quiet practice.
Posted By: Messiah Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/02/21 09:37 AM
I think Pianoteq is great, I am usually super sensitive to digital stuff and prefer analog synths and so on but I never question the sound in pianoteq when I play classical pieces. It has come so far now that I personally don't feel that I need my piano to sound better, some of the libraries now are absolutely amazing and kick my Roland HP-605's ass.


Keep up the great work Modartt you're leaving behind such an important legacy with these pianos, who else will model all these wonderful classic pianos and haprischords that might disappear one day. I am so grateful for your product and what you are doing that many might not see and understand but I want you to know that so you get inspired to keep working at it and bring more interesting and beautiful instruments in the future.

Thank you!
Posted By: dmd Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/02/21 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Messiah
I think Pianoteq is great, I am usually super sensitive to digital stuff and prefer analog synths and so on but I never question the sound in pianoteq when I play classical pieces. It has come so far now that I personally don't feel that I need my piano to sound better, some of the libraries now are absolutely amazing and kick my Roland HP-605's ass.


Keep up the great work Modartt you're leaving behind such an important legacy with these pianos, who else will model all these wonderful classic pianos and haprischords that might disappear one day. I am so grateful for your product and what you are doing that many might not see and understand but I want you to know that so you get inspired to keep working at it and bring more interesting and beautiful instruments in the future.

Thank you!

I agree, completely.

You may wish to post this on the Modartt website, if you haven't already done so.
Posted By: meghdad Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/03/21 10:16 AM
I used to turn it off while using the DP's internal sampled sounds. Now I'm using Pianoteq and I have it on although on a very low db level so it's a subtle effect.

https://www.modartt.com/user_manual?product=pianoteq&lang=en#using-reverberation

Quote
Moreover, it is worth mentioning that bypassing reverberation in Pianoteq does not have the same effect as bypassing reverberation in a sample-based instrument. In the latter case, unless recording was made in an anechoic chamber, there is a natural reverberation present in the recorded samples which may not be perceived as reverberation because the note release cuts the reverb tail itself, whereas in Pianoteq, there is no reverberation whatsoever when you switch it off. In that case, the sound loses an important part of its natural quality and may sound strange or synthetic, particularly with headphones
Posted By: Christopher90 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/03/21 06:33 PM
I wish VST's specififed the benchmark score required, the single core score and the multicore score, because they can be vastly different. I just upgraded believing my pc wasn't up to specs and i may have completely done it wrong without knowing. that
Posted By: vagfilm Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/03/21 07:03 PM
Hi Christopher90: I don't want to sound rude, but if you upgraded because of a immaginary problem before checking if the problem really existed, why are you blaming Modartt for not doing something that no software company does (and for a reason) and only you think that it is important? Modartt has a demo for testing your system before buying...
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/03/21 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Christopher90
I wish VST's specififed the benchmark score required, the single core score and the multicore score, because they can be vastly different. I just upgraded believing my pc wasn't up to specs and i may have completely done it wrong without knowing. that

Some of us don't have a clue about this stuff, nor do we care. all I know is PTq works faultlessly on my little Ideapad . . .and that's all I need to know.
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/03/21 11:36 PM
Plus they have a forum too to ask. Just sayin wink
Posted By: meghdad Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 06/07/21 08:14 AM
A quick question that might turn into its own thread:

How do you adapt the sound to your speaker system such that it sounds as close to the natural internal samples' sounds, volume-wise and quality-wise? Do you do trial and error or do you learn about the physics of sound and acoustics before adjusting the parameters?
Posted By: Skyscrapersax Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/04/21 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Jethro
I recently purchased an inexpensive USB audio interface (Behringer) to use with a 2011 mac mini and it improved the latency and sound of my Ravenscroft piano. I did lower my buffer size to 128 and reduced sampling to 44khz to further improve performance.

Are you saying that using an audio interface improved latency and sound better than Apple's Core Audio?

I was able to set latency on the Pianoteq 7.4 to 128....

How do you use a a Mac Mini, which has no monitor? Hook it up to a monitor? Why not just get a laptop? I got the laptop version instead as one less thing to bring to the gig.

Thanks.
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/10/21 09:52 PM
Hi Guys

My Midi cord has finally arrived.

Testing out Pianoteq 7 with my Bechstein prelude...

Here is the clip of Bruce Hornsby recorded in one shot



Go easy on the criticism k
I've never been trained etc there aint much opportunity to learn professionally in Trinidad

Everyone sorta just plays by ear and are self taught.
And I still can't read music to save my life.

I still think the Bechstein is the best preset by far in Pianoteq. Least boxiness etc and has a beautiful character to it.

Cheers
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/10/21 09:55 PM
I know a lot of folks don't like Pianoteq but gosh listen to that lingering endless piano sustain.. Sorry but the Sustain and behaviour of the piano in Pianoteq is as close to an acoustic I've ever experienced with a digital piano.

Coupled with the Korg D1 RH3 Action it feels amazing to play.

Also excuse my Thor like Endgame Beard lol laugh laugh .

We've been locked down for a while no barbers etc. lolll

Cheers guys
Posted By: Fleer Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/11/21 12:51 AM
Love it. Thanks for posting right outta Trinidad!
Posted By: Ralphiano Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/11/21 12:59 AM
Nice playing, Mta88! thumb

I agree on the Bechstein. I think it is the nicest piano in Pianoteq.

Good luck to the Socca Warriors against Mexico tonight!
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/11/21 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Nice playing, Mta88! thumb

I agree on the Bechstein. I think it is the nicest piano in Pianoteq.

Good luck to the Socca Warriors against Mexico tonight!

Oh crap that was yesterday?

lol... oops.. More of a cricket fan laugh
Posted By: Mta88 Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/14/21 09:27 PM
Bored in work.

Decided to record couple other songs with Pianoteq 7.4 using bechstein recording.

Screwed up here and there but I'm recording in between customers and suppliers so forgive me lol

hope u guys enjoy.

The Beckstein model really is the best to my ears.



and



Will rerecord it and fix the mistakes when place is less busy and I have time.

Using M1 Mac Pro on 64bit buffer
Pianoteq Stage.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pianoteq 7 has now been released - 07/15/21 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by meghdad
A quick question that might turn into its own thread:

How do you adapt the sound to your speaker system such that it sounds as close to the natural internal samples' sounds, volume-wise and quality-wise? Do you do trial and error or do you learn about the physics of sound and acoustics before adjusting the parameters?

A great question if I might say so. Whatever your sound system arragements, you can alter the Pianoteq response to suit your ears.
So it's not the sound system you alter, but PTq.
You use the velocity curve to achieve this in the main. If some of the higher notes are down, you can tweak them up to suit..
I have a large music stand which deflects the sound away from me, and towards the rear. This prevents 'er indoors from complaining she can't hear the TV. It works, so I can play quite loudly.
Normally the sound would be less than ideal, but it now comes at me more naturally, indirectly like it might from an upright. It's a fun thing.
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