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I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).
I've worked on different ways to improvise my technique, but I still don't see a change.

What do you think?
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Thanks!
AmPianistComposer
In my humble opinion, it is better than not practicing at all.

Having said that, a good piano will help to improve.
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?

It's not a real piano. It's a digital keyboard with a folded action.

Quote
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Same basic technology, more bells and whistles.

The money you would spend on them gets you a real upright piano.
Originally Posted by JoeT
The money you would spend on them gets you a real upright piano.
Yes, but there are some poor upright pianos out there, new and used. This doesn't help.

Since your repertoire is not pop based, you need a good key action that will allow you to control and balance the dynamics of the piece, in both hands, and a good sound (engine) palette will allow you to explore aspects of the achievable tone. A better digital or good upright will help you achieve that compared to the P45. Polishing a piece with my piano teacher is all about 'bringing out the tone' and for ages I had no idea what she was on about, but now I get it, but still can't do it like she can.

It may be easier said than done but you need to play some in a store, digitals or uprights. Purposeful play. Explore touch response dynamics, legato, staccato, harmonies using chords, melody lines, left right hand balance, etc, You will know wink
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by JoeT
The money you would spend on them gets you a real upright piano.
Yes, but there are some poor upright pianos out there, new and used. This doesn't help.

Why not? One can get a decent used upright for the price of a CA99 or CLP795. Sure one needs to be careful picking it, preferably aided by an experienced piano tech.
Question is if one is able to practice on it for hours without annoying the neighbours.

To find the answer, the OP might want to spend some practice time in piano stores (or elsewhere) trying out different DPs, APs and hybrids.
To a dedicated artist there is no substitute for a fine acoustic piano.
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 ...
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?
The piano you choose must meet your needs.
Consider your finances. Consider your circumstances. Consider your art.
These will guide your choice.
Originally Posted by _sem_
Question is if one is able to practice on it for hours without annoying the neighbours.

Sometimes less is more. Amateur pianists of the 19th century practiced up to 16 hours per day with things like Hanon exercises and didn't really care about neighbors.

For me having half an hour per week with a Yamaha grand piano did more for my technique than spending hours per day on my Kawai ES100. So getting a good 45 to 90 minutes out of a well maintained upright piano will be a clear improvement over spending the entire night with the P-45.
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
.. I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Hey pal, you are into some of the pinnacles of piano playing artistically and technically ! No way a lower end digital piano (as you properly describe it) will do justice to those ! My 2 c, you really need an acoustic piano, at that level nothing would come close for touch , expression, responsiveness!
A low-end digital piano gets most of the job done, even if the experience is ‘less satisfactory’ from an enjoyment perspective.

Surely, you will have a more visceral experience sitting in front of a concert grand, but practicing is not just about that. A digital will allow you to work on learning the notes, analysis, memorization, and yes, even interpretation.

As a matter of fact, a “lesser-digital” forces you into ‘imagining’ the sound rather than just hearing it; in other words, if the dynamic range is limited, and going form pp to ff is somewhat rough, you simply imagine (in your mind’s ear) a smoother transition and if possible sing along to it. This strengthens your inner musician; which might I add, we tend to neglect in favor of over-the-top fortissimos.

And no, a digital will not ‘damage your technique’ (that is BS). A half-decent musician should be able to adapt between a crappy digital, a useless upright, an average grand, and a perfectly prepped concert grand. Perspective, people, perspective!


P.S.

The truth is that we already use ‘imagination’ when it comes to certain interpretations; for example, a ‘vibrato’ is not possible on the piano due to the nature of the instrument, yet according to Barenboim, that doesn’t mean you can’t ‘imagine’ that indeed you are playing a ‘true’ vibrato although in reality you are not.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by _sem_
Question is if one is able to practice on it for hours without annoying the neighbours.

Sometimes less is more. Amateur pianists of the 19th century practiced up to 16 hours per day with things like Hanon exercises and didn't really care about neighbors.
Perhaps, but we don't know how many were killed by their spouses.
Originally Posted by Pete14
As a matter of fact, a “lesser-digital” forces you into ‘imagining’ the sound rather than just hearing it; in other words, if the dynamic range is limited, and going form pp to ff is somewhat rough, you simply imagine (in your mind’s ear) a smoother transition and if possible sing along to it. This strengthens your inner musician; which might I add, we tend to neglect in favor of over-the-top fortissimos.

An "inner musician" just makes one play good in their mind while not being able to perform decently in front of others.

Quote
And no, a digital will not ‘damage your technique’ (that is BS). A half-decent musician should be able to adapt between a crappy digital, a useless upright, an average grand, and a perfectly prepped concert grand. Perspective, people, perspective!

A professional musician rejects inappropriately prepared instruments, because their reputation depends on that. At some point in a career one could play anything, but don't has to anymore.

But a beginner with a P-45 already struggles with playing even. Their instrument features one dynamic sample layer (forte) per three to four keys and needs the volume cranked to max to barely notice any audible difference in touch. It only has "piano" in the name, not in the sound.

Quote
The truth is that we already use ‘imagination’ when it comes to certain interpretations; for example, a ‘vibrato’ is not possible on the piano due to the nature of the instrument, yet according to Barenboim, that doesn’t mean you can’t ‘imagine’ that indeed you are playing a ‘true’ vibrato although in reality you are not.

A pro's imagination makes them play better. A beginner's/intermediate's imagination makes them play worse, which they promptly find out once they listen to a recording of themselves. Or end up in a piano lesson, where everything falls apart, which sounded so great at home.
In great pianistic scheme of things, things like P45 are just still toys, with minimum acceptable usability. Playing any kind of advanced repertoire and developing it there is just pure waste of time. Top digitals like CA99 are different beasts, and much better than old uprights impossible to sound nice and regulate and action which help you develop the technique immensely. While I would still opt either for a hybrid like N1X or NV10S, for the price of CA99 and etc you can buy new Ritmuller or other chinese piano with european heritage like Irmler, Schulze-Pollmann studio and so on. And middle-class upright, but do not buy older than 20 years. I know a lot of people will tell you oh I bought 50 years old U1 and sounds great and is regulated. Whatever, those school instruments were beaten almost to death and it's just store business to sell the to you. Best option is to look for a good private sale for upright and hire good technician to check the condition. Some W. Hoffmanns, Petrofs and other mid-class instruments should be available. It's hard to find an used instrument which will please both your eyes, fingers and ears, but you will be happy.

However, if you like digitals, than yes you can buy top stuff and it will bring a lot of good things to you as well. P45 and similar are still toys, unfortunately marketed otherwise. They are good for ocassional and amateur players, who do aim to play serious repertoire and playing even easy Rach and Chopin pieces is far beyond the skills they want to achieve. Do not be misleaded by a lot of people playing beautifully serious works on those in youtube and etc. - be it in commercials or just personal videos. In 99% case these people had lots of year of piano training on acoustic grands and uprights, as it's impossible to develop proper technique and musicality on such cheap instrument. To my they all sound bright and action is "acceptable" only if there are absolutely no other options available.

Yamaha GP series is the same as Clavinova, but pay a lot for cabinet. not worth the price. Want best of two worlds? Look for used N1X or NV10, or used upright. However, is you are asking such questions it seems to me that your reperitore is too serious for your skills...
Originally Posted by maucycy
However, is you are asking such questions it seems to me that your reperitore is too serious for your skills...

I should have looked closer, I think you found the culprit. The OP makes it sound they are playing a certain repertoire at a certain level of proficiency. However this looks more like a beginner with their (probably) first lowest-end digital piano trying to practice things written for the most advanced pianists:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...of-the-following-pieces.html#Post3149862

I mean just listen to it:



You will not play THIS on a P-45. The primitive plastic action without hinges will simply run into its physical limits and the sound engine won't be able to reproduce anything that resembles Rachmaninoff's virtuoso. That poor thing will probably even struggle with an authentic MIDI file. I know the ES100/ES110 does and starts delaying notes, if you add too much pedal and its internal MIDI bus gets overloaded.

There is only one answer left to someone trying this, struggling and now doubting their gear: Go take lessons and practice appropriate pieces.
But what is “proper technique and musicality”?

I suppose Corea (Jazz) does not require proper technique and musicality, yet Liszt does?

Is an acoustic or a high-end hybrid optimal? Yes, but given most people’s circumstances that is usually not a possibility, so we work with what we have, and so-called ‘proper technique and musicality’ (whatever the heck that means) can wait.

Once again, we seem to be dismissing some essential aspects of practicing, be that learning the notes, analyzing, and memorizing; and, as usual, using subjective terms like ‘technique and musicality’ to dismiss this ‘toy’ called the P-45.

Transitioning from something like a P-45 to a Novus will not be a traumatizing experience to the player, but simply a process that will necessitate some minor adjustments (yes, you heard me; minor adjustments).

The Novus gives you a much wider dynamic range, you adapt to that.

The action will be faster on the Novus, a welcome advantage.

The Novus overwhelms you with all them resonances, once again, you learn, modify pedaling, adapt, and move on.

No, a P-45 will not damage your so-called technique; this is conservatory-talk that has no basis in truth because it implies that technique is an absolute; which it is not!

Did Monk have a good technique? Yes, a good technique (approach) that worked for him. I couldn’t play the way he played, but I also cannot dismiss it as bad technique because guess what, it worked for him.

Did Gould sit too low at the piano? For me, yes; for him, it was just fine. So, once again, ‘technique’ is a broad and generic term, and, therefore, we cannot apply it as an absolute. The speed of light -as of now- is an absolute, piano technique is not.

IMHO!
Pete, do you actually own a piano? I doubt it.
Yes, it’s called the Yamaha P-515! grin

Are you, like Gombessa, going to tell me that my immortally beloved P-515 does not have a ‘true’ action?
Originally Posted by JoeT
Pete, do you actually own a piano? I doubt it.

The "I doubt it" was a bit too much? Are you that assertive in other stuffs?
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, it’s called the Yamaha P-515! grin

Are you, like Gombessa, going to tell me that my immortally beloved P-515 does not have a ‘true’ action?

The p-515, is like all the other digitals a keyboard with folded action, and as thus is not appropriate for classical pieces.(as he said)

Originally Posted by JoeT
I use my own P-515 to accompany and improvise over songs*) with and without lead sheets, using the built-in rhythm section and the MIDI sequencer. This is what the P-515 has been built for and this is also what I teach others, while I don't teach Bach, Chopin and Rachmaninoff, because that's neither what I'm qualified for (despite being classically trained) nor what I have the gear for: A proper grand piano is the minimum requirement for a classical piano teacher.
I assume by ‘classical pieces’ we mean redundant, over-the-top, flashy-hollow, and simple chord progressions topped off with a cute Lisztsian melody?

Then, perhaps yes, my folded action might get ‘stuck’ upon La Campanella, but that is not a limitation of my piano, but rather a referendum on the composer, Liszt, the king of fluff passing for advanced.

Incidentally, La Redundancy can be played on my P-515 even if it means ‘slowing down’ during the storm of repetitive notes meant to show virtuosity, and don’t get me wrong, people do actually believe that this is complex music; which is why Lang Lang can play to full arenas, and dazzle them people with dazzling feats of acrobatics, big bangs, special effects, and fireworks.
When I have tried high-end folded action with non folded action, I enjoy them the same (excepted the N1X).

Then whether an action is folded or not should not matter… only what you feel when playing.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?

It's not a real piano. It's a digital keyboard with a folded action.

Quote
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Same basic technology, more bells and whistles.

The money you would spend on them gets you a real upright piano.

By using "keyboards with folded action, i was only highlighting the sayings of JoeT.
So i assume that the P-515 also belong to the category of keyboard with folded action.
Good debates here, probably enough to help guide the OP towards wherever their stated doubts are leading them .... meantime, keep up the lively discussion .... quibbles .....and or statements of opinion, all of you ! 🙂 after all, opinions are like the odorous orifice on the bottom side .... every body has one even though not everybody may have been taught to like admitting it ..... i suspect many of us here still live in a partly fee world where one can be assertive, yee gads, despite the risk of it flying in the face of the younger generations of increasingly wussified world hesitant to voice dissent ..... opine , agree, disagree , assert and continue on within bounds as necessary, folks...
Originally Posted by playplayplay
The "I doubt it" was a bit too much? Are you that assertive in other stuffs?

I think it should be obvious, that I don't hold long esoteric ramblings about some "inner musician" mixed with nonsense and name-dropping of famous pianists in high regard. That lead to my (rhetorical) question.

Quote
The p-515, is like all the other digitals a keyboard with folded action, and as thus is not appropriate for classical pieces.(as he said)

Indeed, practicing classical pieces on a digital piano is something I don't consider time spent well. Unlike the favorite opinion that all practice is good practice (usually stems from people going on their own with no outside feedback), I know that wrong practice can actually make things worse. Once you learned a piece the wrong way, you lost your chance to learn it right from scratch. Instead you going to spend much more time on trying to correct earlier mistakes.

That's why it is important to refrain from repertoire which is beyond your skill level on equipment which isn't up to the task.
One needs to find the piano which will do those demi-semis without issue. For the first time in my life, I've found mine.
I took a chance on a ES110 . . .Light and easy, your fingers'll GO!
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered. "All practice is better than no practice" (which I said) is different from "all practice is good practice" which I don't remember being said in this thread, and certainly not by me...
Originally Posted by peterws
One needs to find the piano which will do those demi-semis without issue. For the first time in my life, I've found mine.
I took a chance on a ES110 . . .Light and easy, your fingers'll GO!

The ES110 will delay notes once you reach the polyphony limit using the correct pedaling. There is also a high chance of injury if you're doing that material a tempo, as with no real escapement the strain on your tendons and muscles will be much higher than on a real piano - I strongly advise against practicing virtuoso stuff on digital pianos.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Indeed, practicing classical pieces on a digital piano is something I don't consider time spent well. Unlike the favorite opinion that all practice is good practice (usually stems from people going on their own with no outside feedback), I know that wrong practice can actually make things worse. Once you learned a piece the wrong way, you lost your chance to learn it right from scratch. Instead you going to spend much more time on trying to correct earlier mistakes.

That's why it is important to refrain from repertoire which is beyond your skill level on equipment which isn't up to the task.

I agree with this. And this is also valid with almost all aspects of life.
But I think, it is important not to make generalities, and take into account the person, its goal, be realistic and so on.
To learn piano is difficult and time consuming. And in order to learn it properly you have to find yourself in the right conditions.
And that has not only to do with the artefact. You have to take into consideration the age, the way the person will learn (teacher or not), its goals, its available time, its natural dextirity etc....
As for me,for example:
I am not in the same place as a 10 years old, who would like to become a renowned pianist. I do not have the same amount of time at my disposal, I am more aware of my limitations, which will restraint my capability to set myself challenge etc...
I know that I won't play in a huge concert hall, on the Boersendoerffer or in a band. I will play for myself, family or friends. Learning piano helps me to understand what the piano is about, and what is behind the scene. To understand better when I hear a pianist in a concert hall.
I know also that, as you said (and I agree with you), it is better to learn the right way. I can't have an acoustic, but I can have a teacher. So, as a trade-off, I have a piano teacher to teach me on a digital "keyboard with folded action". Will I play, in a future, on an acoustic, I will from time to time. Will I play regularly on an acoustic (that means having one in my house), I am not that sure, but who knows.
In that sense the possible bad behaviors I would get won't have a negative impact on me.
Having said that, (and there is more to say) is it better to learn piano on a kawai es920 with a teacher or to learn piano on an upright with an app?
I do think that it could be dangerous to give advices to someone, without knowing where is its position and where he wants to go.
BTW, piano world is also time consuming.....
The OP made an identical inquiry in the Piano Forum, to which Charles Cohen replied thus:

"Your P-45 is at the lower end of what's called "digital piano" -- 88 weighted keys.

The CA99 (or CA79) will be _much_ better, for your level of playing. Longer keysticks, so it's easier to play near the fallboard, better dynamic control, much longer sustain, "string resonance", continuous half-pedalling, . . .

. . . It's not an acoustic piano, but it tries _really hard_ to match that sound.

There's a "mid-range" contingent -- Yamaha P-515 / Kawai ES-920 / Roland FP-90 -- which would be worth trying out. (Those instrument also have "cabinet" versions, I don't know the numbers.)

Find a music shop that has some high-end digitals, and try them out."


Very good advice from Charles, as usual. The mid-range pianos he mentions offer the best "bang-for-the-buck", though the highest level Yamaha CLPs and Kawai CAs are certainly better. I would recommend the CA79 if you plan to play using headphones only, since the CA99's added value comes from its soundboard, which is active only without headphones.

OP, you indicated in the Piano Forum that an acoustic was out of question, else I would recommend one. I returned to the piano after 40 years away with a Yamaha DGX-660, an instrument that has a similar key action to the P-45. While this action is certainly okay for beginner to early intermediate pieces (say up to British Grade 4 or 5), you are right to consider a higher-level piano for anything more advanced. I upgraded to a Kawai acoustic grand after a few years, though I still have (and love) my Yamaha digital.

But, honestly, if you are playing advanced pieces like the ones mentioned, you should be able to decide between digital pianos without the debatable advice of internet forum posters like me. Best wishes for making the right decision for yourself!
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by peterws
One needs to find the piano which will do those demi-semis without issue. For the first time in my life, I've found mine.
I took a chance on a ES110 . . .Light and easy, your fingers'll GO!

The ES110 will delay notes once you reach the polyphony limit using the correct pedaling. There is also a high chance of injury if you're doing that material a tempo, as with no real escapement the strain on your tendons and muscles will be much higher than on a real piano - I strongly advise against practicing virtuoso stuff on digital pianos.

I have compared, and was considering buying an acoustic. Might still do so, but my experience on the ES is surpisingly good. The idea is to let your fingers dance over the keys instead of pressing into them. The momentum of the keys will do the rest. Maybe . . .
Kawai ES110 yes
Yamaha P-125 no
Roland FP-30X no
If you're answering the question "Is practicing on a lower-end Digital piano good?" ...
Originally Posted by RinTin
Kawai ES110 yes
Yamaha P-125 no
Roland FP-30X no
... then please explain your yes and no answers.
Originally Posted by vagfilm
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered....

This.

Commotion, yes. Confusion, yes. And as you also reference in your post the habit of deliberately misquoting and/or misrepresenting the words of others. Whist couching everything in an utterly charmless tone that verges on aggression.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by vagfilm
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered....

This.

Commotion, yes. Confusion, yes. And as you also reference in your post the habit of deliberately misquoting and/or misrepresenting the words of others. Whist couching everything in an utterly charmless tone that verges on aggression.

Ah, Essbrace! you just have to learn how to handle Joe. He might not be slow walkin' or slow talkin' but he'd still respond well to an electronic cow-prodder . . .
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by vagfilm
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered....

This.

Commotion, yes. Confusion, yes. And as you also reference in your post the habit of deliberately misquoting and/or misrepresenting the words of others. Whist couching everything in an utterly charmless tone that verges on aggression.

Ah, Essbrace! you just have to learn how to handle Joe. He might not be slow walkin' or slow talkin' but he'd still respond well to an electronic cow-prodder . . .

I like this idea Pete. You plug it in to a high voltage supply and I'll do the prodding.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?

It's not a real piano. It's a digital keyboard with a folded action.

Quote
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Same basic technology, more bells and whistles.

The money you would spend on them gets you a real upright piano.

An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.
The CA99 does not have the double escapement of a grand piano. Nor even the single escapement of an upright piano.
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.
Quote
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).

Which Chopin Polonaise? They have a significant range of difficulty.

With all due respect, having to ask if the piano is up to the task would be an indication that you are not ready for these works.

What are some examples of pieces you play well currently?
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).

Which Chopin Polonaise? They have a significant range of difficulty.

Three weeks ago on PW:

Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
What is the most difficult piece among these?
Please do consider ranking them [musically/technically/both].
1) "Liszt- Un Sospiro"
2) "Rachmaninoff- Moment Musicaux Op 16 No.4"
3) "Chopin- Heroic Polonaise Op 53"


I love all of these pieces and all of them are completely different from each other.
I also plan to learn them. Which of them should I be approaching first and which last?

Any piece of advice would be greatly appreciated
Thank you!
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
Thanks a lot for your advice
I have already started working on Rachmaninoff smile
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

[Linked Image]

The plastic mechanism (there is no piano action) is folded above the key. The description is mostly concerned with the keyboard, but that is NOT part of a piano action. The weighted metal thingy which cannot escape is all that there is in a CA99. ​It has nothing in common with a grand piano action. The keysticks aren't balanced, which is typical for folded actions. Of course it looks much more sophisticated than what is in the P-45, but the basic principle is the same.

This is a single escapement upright piano action. The action is in the left above the balanced keystick (that's why the so-called balance pins are in the center):

[Linked Image]
A Renner action that uses springs! Do they all do that?
Acoustic piano actions all have springs. One under the jack. And on grands, one or two more on the rep.
Originally Posted by peterws
A Renner action that uses springs! Do they all do that?
Many digital actions also have springs. (But no strings!)
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.
You are correct. But every baseball diamond has a left field. As does Piano World.
There are always divergent opinions coming in from left field.
Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

... to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.
Originally Posted by Chris James
Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.
This!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Chris James
Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.
This!

Yes.
Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.


Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?

perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?
Originally Posted by jackopiano
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?

perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?

All good but why your enjoyment need to hurt other persons? Noone is expecting him to play at afromentioned Seong-jin level, but the piece he posted it's just far too hard for him. Music is made to enjoy people, watching someone trying very hard and can't handling it isn't anything beautiful. One of our goals here has to be pointing out people what they should correct, and not only writing it's all right. I mean, this performance is lacking piano playing basics and he can't go over the more difficult places. One of the best solutions is to record yourself, and watch with sheet music why to others play so well and me so bad. There are a lot of pieces he could play well, he does not understand Chopin's music, Bach, Scarlatti or easy Beethoven would be much better suited for him (Bagatelles, Sonatas op.49 and so on). Yet he took probably the most difficult Nocturne to perform and is learning other hard one. Schumann and Shubert both written a lot of pretty romantic music, which would be easier for him to execute properly. It's just the wrong way.

Even if you do something for enjoyment, just do it good.
And list of composers goes on and on. Why to play hard piano piece of the most difficult piano composer? What's the reason?
Originally Posted by peterws
A Renner action that uses springs! Do they all do that?

Yes, an upright piano action uses a hammer rail spring to return the hammer to the hammer rail, a damper spring to return the damper onto the strings and a jack spring to return the jack.

I know "springs = bad" is part of the PW folklore for some reason, but real pianos don't care.

Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

The strange thing are actually amateur opinions about practicing advanced classical repertoire on rudimentary digital pianos, which don't fly outside this forum. Obviously many people practice beginner repertoire from piano schools there and then move up to a real piano, if they care about solo piano.

Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?

Their teacher would tell them.

Amateurs are unable to assess difficulty and barebone instruments like the P-45 or FP-10 invite to this kind of stuff. Most people who just want to enjoy themselves at home are way better off with an arranger keyboard. With an unweighted action they don't even need get taught proper technique and the risk of injury is nil.

Originally Posted by Chris James
You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.

The argument of "time well spent" is from a perspective of skill development. Playing Chopin is attainable for amateur pianists on an upright piano, but not by wasting time with practicing too hard repertoire on completely unsuitable equipment. Instead you will ruin these pieces forever, because unlearning is much harder than learning. That's why for example Beethoven's Für Elise is banned pretty much everywhere.
@jackopiano: Don't get flustered. We just have a new troll, that's all.
Originally Posted by jackopiano
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).
I've worked on different ways to improvise my technique, but I still don't see a change.

What do you think?
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Thanks!
AmPianistComposer

AmPianistComposer,

If its not too late, would you please elaborate more on “the requirements”?

As it currently stands, you are working on some relatively advanced repertoire with a DP known to be at the low end of the spectrum and utilizing one of the oldest designs of moving parts within Yami’s arsenal of what in DP lingo generally passes for “key action”. It probably matters not that your P45 is 4Y’sO; it might matter some for this forum to know how long you’ve been playing / practicing your preferred repertoire with the P45 and any other instruments along the way.

Since you’ve already put on the table that you are not progressing satisfactorily despite your increased efforts, it is fairly obvious you should consider that either you’ve topped out on progress due to your overall capacity for such or you should upgrade to a better instrument that will help you to progress and advance in your playing/learning endeavors .... while there is no sufficiently agreed upon standard for “best” , ergo “better” is also somewhat subjective, be it butter, batter, DP or any other aspect of this world that people might deem worthy of debating what is better ..... there likely will always be debate no matter how firm or loose the criteria 🙂


Also obvious here is the purist VS pragmatist approach to learning be it learning casually or perhaps to the point approaching mastery of relatively advanced repertoire.... yes!, “mastery” is also highly subjective .... but at least the world long ago adopted formal schools of thought with be-knighted judges who get to declare who has mastered and who not ..... anyway, is an AP even on your radar for consideration ? If definitely not is your answer, then you can mostly put aside the purist’s view for now and focus on considering models such as CA99 and CLP7xx and the like, which are at OR near the top of the spectrum of DPs.

Best of luck to you!
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@jackopiano: Don't get flustered. We just have a new troll, that's all.
Originally Posted by jackopiano
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?

@MacMacMac
Someone who is long long here and has as big knowledge as you shouldn't be making a fool of himself, as you with your statements calling me a troll, just because I wrote truth. If you have any argument to argue about Chris James video I am happy to talk.

Otherwise it looks like that you are that we can play as bad as possible if only it gives us joy.
Apparently, he also asked for help regarding his piece and got no help here in the other threads. I will not jump there and rewrite everything, maybe later on.
You were being unkind for no reason. Compare your words with those of drewr. Troll vs. not troll.
Originally Posted by drewr
If its not too late, would you please elaborate more on “the requirements”?

The requirement is actually a piano, that is able to perform Rachmaninoff Op. 16 No. 4, which is actually one of Rachmaninoff's most difficult virtuoso pieces. You might even have some upright pianos struggle with this. And lots of professional pianists as well.

Quote
As it currently stands, you are working on some relatively advanced repertoire with a DP known to be at the low end of the spectrum [...] you are not progressing satisfactorily despite your increased efforts

What is to be expected. It's mechanically and tonally impossible to play this piece on a P-45 while staying faithful to the text. And most likely on any digital piano.
Originally Posted by maucycy
I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?

That must be deeply rooted in American culture.
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45. Since then, I have upgraded to a CLP 785 and had the opportunity to play on actual grand pianos. To me, there is no question: the CLP 785 is significantly better for learning the instrument than my P-45, and an actual acoustic piano is better than that. If I could do it over again, I'd probably save more and purchase a silent upright. If I needed a piano in the short run to practice with, I imagine a CLP 745 would be a good stop-gap while getting money for the acoustic. I think your life situation matters a lot too. Even though I *say* I would want an acoustic, the lighter weight and smaller footprint of the CLP 785 is nice, and as I am probably several years away from owning a home, it is a great solution for apartment/condo life.

For the record, I love my CLP 785 and don't feel hindered by it at all in improving my skill. It's great for my current level, and I doubt I will be at place where I'm performing hard enough pieces that it matters significantly for a while yet. I've seen skilled YouTube performers handle a variety of challenging pieces on far worse equipment, which isn't a justification or recommendation for owning junk, but a reminder that many things are workable. As an added benefit, it has been a great controller for sampled library products. In my class of piano students, this tech lets me produce far better recordings (in my opinion) than them even though their acoustic instruments outshine mine in terms of action. But if you can afford it, I've heard that many teachers would say to get the best action you can as early as possible. I can see why after playing the grands... it's hard to go back after that. smile
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?

Obviously not. I think I was tackling "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and such back then. wink Why do you ask?
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The CA99 does not have the double escapement of a grand piano. Nor even the single escapement of an upright piano.
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

[Linked Image]

The plastic mechanism (there is no piano action) is folded above the key. The description is mostly concerned with the keyboard, but that is NOT part of a piano action. The weighted metal thingy which cannot escape is all that there is in a CA99. ​It has nothing in common with a grand piano action. The keysticks aren't balanced, which is typical for folded actions. Of course it looks much more sophisticated than what is in the P-45, but the basic principle is the same.

This is a single escapement upright piano action. The action is in the left above the balanced keystick (that's why the so-called balance pins are in the center):

[Linked Image]
I said it MIMICKS the action of a grand piano. It will be physically impossible to play pieces that require fast single key repetition on an upright. It will be possible on a CA99.
Originally Posted by Tupac
I said it MIMICKS the action of a grand piano.

An upright piano action mimics the action of a grand piano. Not the newest one, but an older single escapement model. Still fine for playing any repertoire except the latest and most difficult.

A digital piano doesn't mimic any piano action, not even one of 1699. In fact the piano action is simply missing in a digital piano. There is just a key attached to a hammer weight through some plastic-joint. It mimics a grand piano action as much as organ action, harpsichord action or clavichord action mimics a grand piano action.

Not even hybrid digital pianos mimic piano actions. They just have real piano actions installed in their full original configuration minus the felt that hit the strings.

Quote
It will be physically impossible to play pieces that require fast single key repetition on an upright. It will be possible on a CA99.

Fast single key repetition is also possible on a Casiotone CT-S1 or IBM Model M. Neither "mimic" a grand piano action:

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Tozen
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?

Obviously not. I think I was tackling "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and such back then. wink Why do you ask?

Because on this forum we have people who start with Rachmaninoff Moment Musicaux Opus 16 No 4 on their Yamaha P-45.
hilarious smile
Originally Posted by Tozen
Why do you ask?

Hi Tozen: with JoeT the correct question is not "why do you ask?", but why do you answer... 😊
Some heated discussion here…

With the disclaimer I’m a (slightly advanced) amateur and largely self-taught pianist, my answer to thread title goes like this:

“Is practicing on a lower-end digital piano good?”

Let’s say it’s not bad. But not good either. IMO.
Originally Posted by Tozen
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?

Obviously not. I think I was tackling "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and such back then. wink Why do you ask?

There's one or two nursery rhymes Mozart did. Try them instead!
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Tozen
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?

Obviously not. I think I was tackling "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and such back then. wink Why do you ask?

There's one or two nursery rhymes Mozart did. Try them instead!

There are fine pianists who are good at turning old children’s dittys into music easily appreciated by people of all ages .....

Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, it’s called the Yamaha P-515! grin

Are you, like Gombessa, going to tell me that my immortally beloved P-515 does not have a ‘true’ action?

Wait, how did I get pulled into this conversation?
Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, it’s called the Yamaha P-515! grin

Are you, like Gombessa, going to tell me that my immortally beloved P-515 does not have a ‘true’ action?

Doesn’t the P515 action « truly » opposes an inertia thanks to the hammer below the key and « truly » sends a note velocity ? We can’t deny this trueness.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tupac
I said it MIMICKS the action of a grand piano.

An upright piano action mimics the action of a grand piano. Not the newest one, but an older single escapement model. Still fine for playing any repertoire except the latest and most difficult.

A digital piano doesn't mimic any piano action, not even one of 1699. In fact the piano action is simply missing in a digital piano. There is just a key attached to a hammer weight through some plastic-joint. It mimics a grand piano action as much as organ action, harpsichord action or clavichord action mimics a grand piano action.

Not even hybrid digital pianos mimic piano actions. They just have real piano actions installed in their full original configuration minus the felt that hit the strings.

Quote
It will be physically impossible to play pieces that require fast single key repetition on an upright. It will be possible on a CA99.

Fast single key repetition is also possible on a Casiotone CT-S1 or IBM Model M. Neither "mimic" a grand piano action:

[Linked Image]
"A digital piano doesn't mimic any piano action" Yes they do, that's the entire point. That's why Kawai named their action "Grand Feel" instead of "Plastic Folded Action Feel". You're arguing about backing technology, I'm arguing about the user experience. Are you going to tell me that an e-reader does not mimic real books in their reading experience? "But it doesn't even use real paper!! And it's not made with trees!!"
Yes, digital piano makers like to claim that their instruments compare favorably with the finest Continental pianos found in the famous salons of Vienna.

Lovely marketing. Lovely bullcrud. They can name it Grand Feel. But such trade names are fictitious and meaningless.

The real world is different. But ... if you insist that a folded digital piano action mimics a grand action, then I might claim that my chocolate chip cookie mimics a Porsche roadster. smile
When I was a kid my family had no money to buy (or rent) a piano.

So I drafted a keyboard on a piece of cardboard and I started to practice singing the notes while I was pressing the corresponding key.

Believe me or not, I learnt the first two or three Beyer exercises.

I assume that a low end digital piano is better than a piece of cardboard…
Originally Posted by maucycy
Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.


Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?


I think we'd all very much like to hear your rendition of the Chopin piece now. Your assertion that the piece is "far above me" is pretty crass (crude), but since I am an amateur I freely admit that there are doubtless better renditions out there. Of course I have only been regularly playing (for the first time in 20 years) for 10 months, so I expect I shall improve quite quickly over the next 10.
Where is your rendition of this piece, so we can set the "mark" towards which I should aim?
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yes, digital piano makers like to claim that their instruments compare favorably with the finest Continental pianos found in the famous salons of Vienna.

Lovely marketing. Lovely bullcrud. They can name it Grand Feel. But such trade names are fictitious and meaningless.

The real world is different. But ... if you insist that a folded digital piano action mimics a grand action, then I might claim that my chocolate chip cookie mimics a Porsche roadster. smile

But they've been assidiously attempting to update the grand piano, into something with more clarity and less interference from resonances.
No doubt they've been looking at streamlining the action, too. Getting rid of springs and stuff.
Secretly, they are dead jealous of digitals and would just love to electronify the action of a grand. It'd be easy.
What's stopping them?
People who think the world is flat.
So, soon acoustic pianos will work on "Play by wire" with sensors on the keys and actuators on the hammers?

Or it could be wireless, so you can have the grand in the middle of the room and take the keyboard with you to the sofa.

"Play by wire(less)" would also enable the development of player assisting technologies like auto-correction.

As for the actual topic: So, low-end digital pianos are meant for low-end piano music? (And low-end players?)
Originally Posted by Chris James
I think we'd all very much like to hear your rendition of the Chopin piece now. Your assertion that the piece is "far above me" is pretty crass (crude), but since I am an amateur I freely admit that there are doubtless better renditions out there. Of course I have only been regularly playing (for the first time in 20 years) for 10 months, so I expect I shall improve quite quickly over the next 10.
Where is your rendition of this piece, so we can set the "mark" towards which I should aim?

I will be more than happy to write detailed analysis why this is piece is too hard for you.
As I said - noone is expecting you (or any other amateur pianist) to play it on a uber-virtuoso level. However, this piece is too difficult for you, and as long as you will not be able to admit it before yourself and will just rebounce the ball, my (or anyone other help) will be pointless.
Eventually it's your decision whether you want to be a good pianist or not. By good I mean playing the pieces that are within your abilities (technically and musically), and that Nocturne is making you a lot of pain, which is just visually visible.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
As for the actual topic: So, low-end digital pianos are meant for low-end piano music? (And low-end players?)

If high-end piano music is classical music and low end music is song, well some argue that digital piano are not made for high-end music but for low end music. There is a teacher saying that, so is opinion is worth listening.
There is another teacher (well known in England) that has, in his teacher room, a bechstein grand but also a Casio gp-310. I think he is arguing that the digital is good help for practicing.
Who is right who is wrong? I think neither. Because that are opinions, and depends of circumstances of a lot of variables..
A digital is not an acoustic piano, it is not the same artefact. But at which level are they close. What to consider?
Making loud noise of ones own opinion against the opinion of others, just make no-sense (again). But teach a lot about the psiche of who is shooting loud.
Non-sense, self satisfaction, arrogance, sometimes agresivity, mockery..... Opinions for facts...
Typing in this forum won't increase my piano skills, and will take my time away. So yours.

Cheers
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
As for the actual topic: So, low-end digital pianos are meant for low-end piano music? (And low-end players?)

The mean truth is: They are meant to sell.

To sell at a price bracket, where you cannot legitimately create a musical instrument, that faithfully reproduces a piano. They are money-grabs in that sense. Money-grabs usually work, when people have no clue: no clue about tools they purchase, no clue about repertoire and no clue about their own abilities. Proof: this thread.

Sadly that's all that is to it actually. The lowest tier (which is colloquially nicknamed "shitbox" in the automotive industry) saw loads of dispensable models released during the last decade, where just one would have sufficed.

However such a race to the bottom usually also marks the end of a boom cycle. The last upright piano boom cycle also saw lots of crap flooding the market in the end of it, before people stopped buying them and lots of manufacturers going broke as a result.
Originally Posted by Chris James
Of course I have only been regularly playing (for the first time in 20 years) for 10 months, so I expect I shall improve quite quickly over the next 10.

For many people on this forum Chopin's nocturnes are beyond their skill level, even when they are playing piano for several years with the help of a piano teacher trained for classical piano. That should tell you something.

Please have a look at the ABRSM and RCM syllabus to assess which pieces are appropriate for beginners at a certain level. Each level roughly equates to a year of professional piano lessons.
Originally Posted by maucycy
Originally Posted by Chris James
I think we'd all very much like to hear your rendition of the Chopin piece now. Your assertion that the piece is "far above me" is pretty crass (crude), but since I am an amateur I freely admit that there are doubtless better renditions out there. Of course I have only been regularly playing (for the first time in 20 years) for 10 months, so I expect I shall improve quite quickly over the next 10.
Where is your rendition of this piece, so we can set the "mark" towards which I should aim?

I will be more than happy to write detailed analysis why this is piece is too hard for you.
As I said - noone is expecting you (or any other amateur pianist) to play it on a uber-virtuoso level. However, this piece is too difficult for you, and as long as you will not be able to admit it before yourself and will just rebounce the ball, my (or anyone other help) will be pointless.
Eventually it's your decision whether you want to be a good pianist or not. By good I mean playing the pieces that are within your abilities (technically and musically), and that Nocturne is making you a lot of pain, which is just visually visible.

You are a moron. A condescending moron.

I could write a detailed analysis of why that is the case, but I doubt you would have the capacity to understand it.

Either post a video of you playing this piece or take your bullshit and shove it up your ass.
Well. I have more than 10 years of piano playing experience...from the age of 7 to 18....then I stopped for 25 years.

I know what my playing level is, and the Nocturnes (including 48-1) are all well within reach of my playing level (though some are clearly more challenging than others).
+1 to the above 2 posts (well... The final words of post #1 were a bit over the top, but boy did they landed well.
Originally Posted by Chris James
Originally Posted by maucycy
Originally Posted by Chris James
I think we'd all very much like to hear your rendition of the Chopin piece now. Your assertion that the piece is "far above me" is pretty crass (crude), but since I am an amateur I freely admit that there are doubtless better renditions out there. Of course I have only been regularly playing (for the first time in 20 years) for 10 months, so I expect I shall improve quite quickly over the next 10.
Where is your rendition of this piece, so we can set the "mark" towards which I should aim?

I will be more than happy to write detailed analysis why this is piece is too hard for you.
As I said - noone is expecting you (or any other amateur pianist) to play it on a uber-virtuoso level. However, this piece is too difficult for you, and as long as you will not be able to admit it before yourself and will just rebounce the ball, my (or anyone other help) will be pointless.
Eventually it's your decision whether you want to be a good pianist or not. By good I mean playing the pieces that are within your abilities (technically and musically), and that Nocturne is making you a lot of pain, which is just visually visible.

You are a moron. A condescending moron.

I could write a detailed analysis of why that is the case, but I doubt you would have the capacity to understand it.

Either post a video of you playing this piece or take your bullshit and shove it up your ass.

Look at your video topic.
Long brake or whatever is not explanation.
I did try to edit my post to remove the swearing....happy for an admin to do that. Sorry to "lower the tone" and take things off topic.

This maurcycy troll has clearly pushed my buttons, spouting their ignorant, ill-informed nonsense.
don't sweat the trolls. music is whatever you want it to be. no point in wasting time arguing with people too ignorant to understand that smile
A few semi-random comments here, based on the discussion above:

- When criticizing how people play it's my opinion that this should be done very carefully, because even though the comment may be right in itself, the way it is presented may be really hurting. I know some people (even teachers) believe that making someone feel miserable is the way to make him improve but I personally don't believe in that. Especially when related to something emotional such as art, in this case music, an insulting comment may trigger a very deep and irreversible trauma.

- On the other hand, people should also learn accepting critique, even the harsh one. If you feel it's insulting, dishonest, ill-driven, baseless, just move on and ignore. I'm not the best example but I certainly think I've improved a lot over the years in just ignoring comments that I think are overly harsh and intended to hurt. And also, even in those comments sometimes there is truth.

- Never respond to (what you think is) insult with insults. The knee-jerk reaction is to do so, but believe me, you're always gonna sorry in the long term. I've made this habit to write an insulting reply to an insult, but not send it, just keep it in front of my eyes for a few minutes. And I always delete it then smile Breathe in before doing something silly. And believe me, the third-party witnesses know very well when someone insulted you (or not) and there's simply no need for you to try to reply in a way that is intended to show to those witnesses that you are right, they see.

- Always try to be cool smile Even if someone insults you.

- When someone says you can't play well, don't ask him to show if he can play better. I've never found this argument relevant. As they say: I don't know how to make a good cake but I know a good cake from a bad cake. Even if he hurted you with his comment, move on.

----

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like life coaching 🤣 Feel free to insult me for that 😛
Well stated, CyberGene.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
- When someone says you can't play well, don't ask him to show if he can play better.

Worst case scenario, you end up on the internet as the next Fanchan meme wink
+1 to this ...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
When criticizing how people play it's my opinion that this should be done very carefully, because even though the comment may be right in itself, the way it is presented may be really hurting. I know some people ...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- When criticizing how people play it's my opinion that this should be done very carefully, because even though the comment may be right in itself, the way it is presented may be really hurting. I know some people (even teachers) believe that making someone feel miserable is the way to make him improve but I personally don't believe in that. Especially when related to something emotional such as art, in this case music, an insulting comment may trigger a very deep and irreversible trauma.

Well, what happened here is that someone used their controversial interpretation of Chopin to win an argument about low-end digital pianos on the Internet. That backfired as expected and...

Quote
- On the other hand, people should also learn accepting critique, even the harsh one. If you feel it's insulting, dishonest, ill-driven, baseless, just move on and ignore. I'm not the best example but I certainly think I've improved a lot over the years in just ignoring comments that I think are overly harsh and intended to hurt. And also, even in those comments sometimes there is truth.

- Never respond to (what you think is) insult with insults. The knee-jerk reaction is to do so, but believe me, you're always gonna sorry in the long term. I've made this habit to write an insulting reply to an insult, but not send it, just keep it in front of my eyes for a few minutes. And I always delete it then smile Breathe in before doing something silly. And believe me, the third-party witnesses know very well when someone insulted you (or not) and there's simply no need for you to try to reply in a way that is intended to show to those witnesses that you are right, they see.

...lead to lots of insults (means one lost the argument) paired with...

Quote
- Always try to be cool smile Even if someone insults you.

- When someone says you can't play well, don't ask him to show if he can play better. I've never found this argument relevant. As they say: I don't know how to make a good cake but I know a good cake from a bad cake. Even if he hurted you with his comment, move on.

...with a typical fallacy, meaning losing the argument on a second front.

I've seen convincing interpretations of simpler classical works on folded actions by professional pianists (who without any doubt used real grand pianos to practice them), but I've yet to see Rach 16,4 done well on a P-45 or the like. And the latter is the topic of this thread.
For anyone curious to hear the performance in question, it's at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3147115/chopin-nocturne-op-48-no-1.html (and I posted my own comments about it there)
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don't know how to make a good cake but I know a good cake from a bad cake.

Oooh! Did someone mention cake? Mine's a whacking great slice of Victoria Sponge please. Don't skimp on the buttercream. And none of your gluten-free rubbish neither - I want to be able to swallow it without having to chew 100 times.

Mmmmmmmmmmm. Cake.


[Linked Image]
At our age, cakes are not for eating. They are for reminiscing over on those days when others are eating them in your company and watching you visibly drool.
Reminiscing can, too, have serious consequences.
I guess you've not been to my local bake shop, eh?
Their cakes are for eating. And I see the consequences every time I look down.
Originally Posted by peterws
At our age, cakes are not for eating. They are for reminiscing ...
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I guess you've not been to my local bake shop, eh?
Their cakes are for eating. And I see the consequences every time I look down.
Originally Posted by peterws
At our age, cakes are not for eating. They are for reminiscing ...

I know! But like so many things I like now, they don't necessarily like me. But Bakewells or Christmas cake (anything wi marzipan on or in it) are both my passion and poison unfortunately.
'S no good. I'll have to start smoking. But what?
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don't know how to make a good cake but I know a good cake from a bad cake.

Oooh! Did someone mention cake? Mine's a whacking great slice of Victoria Sponge please. Don't skimp on the buttercream. And none of your gluten-free rubbish neither - I want to be able to swallow it without having to chew 100 times.


Taking a page out of Steve Martin’s can’t fail simple procedure for becoming a millionaire, Step 1 - get a million bucks. For good cakes, substitute liberally step 1 ) get a good cake or failing that, 1B) marry someone who knows how to make good cakes, failing those, take a page out of macmacmac’s solution ...... eerily similar to George Carlin’s segment on strange expressions “ man that REAlly takes the cake! .... where do you take a cake? .... down to the bakery to visit all the other pastries.
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).
I've worked on different ways to improvise my technique, but I still don't see a change.

What do you think?
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Thanks!
AmPianistComposer

At your level, I would'nt be happy if I didn't have access to a REAL acoustic piano. As a piano teacher I'd never recommend intermediate/advanced students to use a digital piano as their main practice instrument - only if a real piano is out of the question - and in some cases it is for various reasons, then at least one would definitely benefit from having with a more premium digital piano such as a KAWAI ES920/ Roland FP-90X etc. (or a console digital with better wooden action if taking the piano out is never your intention. HOWEVER again due to the size of these things an acoustic would be always preferable!)

From your post I get the feeling that the P-45 hinders your development as a pianist musician and as such you do more harm then good to yourself even if you invest the time to practice. I played the Roland P-125/45 series. You need an upgrade pronto.

I never had a student that stuck on an entry level keyboard for so many (4) years... usually students upgrade their keys between 1-2 years on average (depends on personal progress, practice time, other factors etc.) from starting out with the the entry keyboard (most often than not a portable 5 octave) to an actual weighted hammer action (acoustic/digital) piano .
Originally Posted by Chummy
At your level, I would'nt be happy if I didn't have access to a REAL acoustic piano. As a piano teacher I'd never recommend intermediate/advanced students to use a digital piano as their main practice instrument.
[...]
I never had a student that stuck on an entry level keyboard for so many (4) years...

It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool.

I don't think that is the case.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chummy
At your level, I would'nt be happy if I didn't have access to a REAL acoustic piano. As a piano teacher I'd never recommend intermediate/advanced students to use a digital piano as their main practice instrument.
[...]
I never had a student that stuck on an entry level keyboard for so many (4) years...

It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool.

I don't think that is the case.

Too many music teachers have hardly set finger on a digital. And too many acoustic pianos are hard and dangerous places to learn on.
D'ya think I'd trade in my ES110 for a B1 now? Having played both there's just no comparison!
If you're going to get a digital piano, try other brands besides Yamaha. Some Yamaha actions are heavy and you make like the action of a Kawai, Roland or Casio better.

Re: the digital vs. acoustic debate:

My first 15 years of practicing piano were spent playing on a late 1980s Yamaha digital with primitive weighted action, and I turned out OK smile

Then again, I didn't try playing any pieces as difficult as the ones OP mentioned!

And I guess I still don't... so maybe I didn't turn out so OK after all. But I have fun and keep playing anyway.
Originally Posted by JoeT
It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool.

FORE!

This thread certainly has developed a variety of story lines, least among them remains the OP’s initial and seemingly sincere inquiry. I think it would be nice to hear from them but since they as protagonist so far have filled a cameo role .... amusing? ....i dunno but given the subsequent ebbs and flows of dialog, once birthed, threads apparently can and do spin and wind and go on as though of their own volition sans OP. An antagonist just now giving voice to having derived some imagined amusement is probably on par for this particular course.
Originally Posted by drewr
Originally Posted by JoeT
It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool.

FORE!

This thread certainly has developed a variety of story lines, least among them remains the OP’s initial and seemingly sincere inquiry. I think it would be nice to hear from them but since they as protagonist so far have filled a cameo role .... amusing? ....i dunno but given the subsequent ebbs and flows of dialog, once birthed, threads apparently can and do spin and wind and go on as though of their own volition sans OP. An antagonist just now giving voice to having derived some imagined amusement is probably on par for this particular course.

Maybe that's what we like about these forums and the postings. Maybe that's what keeps us here when new models are scarce and hardy available . . .
It then behoves us all to use a little imagination, to evoke a less than little backlash. It makes the world turn and burn.
But I didn't light the fire!
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chummy
At your level, I would'nt be happy if I didn't have access to a REAL acoustic piano. As a piano teacher I'd never recommend intermediate/advanced students to use a digital piano as their main practice instrument.
[...]
I never had a student that stuck on an entry level keyboard for so many (4) years...

It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool...

This guy's probably stuck on his piano, as well, no? laugh

Originally Posted by maucycy
Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.


Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?

The recording was described as showing that the piano is up to the task. That would make this the first time I've heard it suggested, directly or implicitly, that a digital piano may limit the use of rubato.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by maucycy
Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.


Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?

The recording was described as showing that the piano is up to the task. That would make this the first time I've heard it suggested, directly or implicitly, that a digital piano may limit the use of rubato.

Sometimes one could think that certain DPs, too much expensive for the value they offer, could instead encourage the use of “rubato”.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chummy
At your level, I would'nt be happy if I didn't have access to a REAL acoustic piano. As a piano teacher I'd never recommend intermediate/advanced students to use a digital piano as their main practice instrument.
[...]
I never had a student that stuck on an entry level keyboard for so many (4) years...

It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool.

I don't think that is the case.

Usually I don't bother with responses like yours but I'll indulge. I'd advise you to re-read the OP: he's working on " Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes" ... obviously, obviously an advanced student. and Would I recommend for him to upgrade from a P-45 to a better instrument? Absolutely. At his level any player will enjoy a better instrument, make practicing and playing more fun and less effort. for the LEVEL of the pieces he's working on he should definitely have access to an acoustic piano, and if not possible for any reason whatsoever, a better digital piano at the very least. I didn't claim to know ANYTHING else regarding the OP 's situation, I just said what I RECOMMEND to MY students.


Just saying what you "don't think is the case" based on 0 facts that you provided/quoted in your post is asinine (unlike my substantiated post which helps the OP if he's indeed in that situation which seems like it based on the original post) . I don't know if you're either trolling or simply ignorant, or you just had a one time misstep. I don't know you so I don't judge.
Originally Posted by Chummy
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Chummy
At your level, I would'nt be happy if I didn't have access to a REAL acoustic piano. As a piano teacher I'd never recommend intermediate/advanced students to use a digital piano as their main practice instrument.
[...]
I never had a student that stuck on an entry level keyboard for so many (4) years...

It's kinda amusing how with the very little information provided by the OP everyone is making up a story in their mind. From your perspective you're seeing a advanced piano student, who is stuck for four years on a toy digital piano as their practice tool.

I don't think that is the case.

Usually I don't bother with responses like yours but I'll indulge. I'd advise you to re-read the OP: he's working on " Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes" ... obviously, obviously an advanced student. and Would I recommend for him to upgrade from a P-45 to a better instrument? Absolutely. At his level any player will enjoy a better instrument, make practicing and playing more fun and less effort. for the LEVEL of the pieces he's working on he should definitely have access to an acoustic piano, and if not possible for any reason whatsoever, a better digital piano at the very least. I didn't claim to know ANYTHING else regarding the OP 's situation, I just said what I RECOMMEND to MY students.


Just saying what you "don't think is the case" based on 0 facts that you provided/quoted in your post is asinine (unlike my substantiated post which helps the OP if he's indeed in that situation which seems like it based on the original post) . I don't know if you're either trolling or simply ignorant, or you just had a one time misstep. I don't know you so I don't judge.

Also, I have to say that I had 2 hours to lose yesterday and I have used them by reading close to all the comments of Joe. It is quite revealing, if you have time to lose. I think we should not take too seriously his writings. He might not be 100 % what he claims to be. I guess that is the magic of forum, we never really know from where the people speaks. It is really time consuming.
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).
I've worked on different ways to improvise my technique, but I still don't see a change.

What do you think?
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?
IMHO it is very simple: if you want to play/practice "classical" piano music at professional level, soon or later an acoustic piano will be absolutely necessary in your professional path. The sooner the better.
In all the other scenarios, even a low-end DP (but not too much low-end!) can be enough, depending from the needs and expectations of the pianist. Of course, the more the better. The closest to an acoustic is an hybrid DP. You'll get the same action of an acoustic, but not the same sound...

Anyway, I think a P45 is not enough if you already are an amateur but decent piano player. All the more so if you are a very good piano player. AFAIK the P45 has an inferior piano engine compared to the P125, and it has a max polyphony of 64 voices VS the 192 of the P125.
Quote
I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Thanks!
AmPianistComposer
Between the Yamaha and Kawai models you mentioned I think Kawai has the better keyboard action, Yamaha the better piano sound quality. But this is very subjective and you should really try yourself.
Originally Posted by peterws
Maybe that's what we like about these forums and the postings. Maybe that's what keeps us here when new models are scarce and hardy available . . .
It then behoves us all to use a little imagination, to evoke a less than little backlash. It makes the world turn and burn.
But I didn't light the fire!

Righto my friend peterws ..... ‘oo needs an OP to keep threads alive and burnin i say ? may haps ya din’t light it but me thinks you my’like avv’in a go at watchin er burn, ay? 😉 ..... and it’aint as bloody simple now as blam’in it on the Yanks agin ad nauseam, i say, ‘cause the obvious truth be told is blokes all over this freakshow world may like ‘avin a go at causin train wrecks but i say, even those oo don’t may like ‘avin a peek at watchin recks after somebody else did the favor of caus’in it, they do iffin ya know what i mean .... and remember virtual kiddies, rule #7 about forum do’s and don’ts - do NOT feed the animals ! especially the trolling kinds who may have simply fallen into your fav forum by accident thinking they landed in their intended fav beavisNbutthead forum for Assians.... you are virtually advised to carry on like many others increasingly do for aspects of this burning world .... seeking shelter in pretending it didn’t happen.


🙂
@drewr: Nice job with the lingo. I hope peterws takes it in the spirit intended.
I've excused your French.
Holy grail, I´ve never expected you to put a capital letter to French.
I dont believe I've come across such a thread anywhere in the internet. Yes, a digital is more than sufficient to learn on, provided one plays at his/her teacher's acoustic once a week. To claim otherwise is pure elitism, or ignorance.....or trolling.
Case in point my son. He only has my ew 300, the most unsuitable instrument to learn on, and when we went to his first class, two days ago, he played for 90 minutes on his teacher's grand with ease. I, on the other hand, didnt manage to make it produce sound..... because I've never practiced on an acoustic.
Still, I am not sure what to get him. A p515 now, or a Young Chang y 121 upright for Christmas? (So I can save up some money) He does prefer upright pianos to digitals, but we are talking double the cost.
The irony is that my 11 year old son doesn't consider digitals to be real pianos 🤣
Originally Posted by drewr
Originally Posted by peterws
Maybe that's what we like about these forums and the postings. Maybe that's what keeps us here when new models are scarce and hardy available . . .
It then behoves us all to use a little imagination, to evoke a less than little backlash. It makes the world turn and burn.
But I didn't light the fire!

Righto my friend peterws ..... ‘oo needs an OP to keep threads alive and burnin i say ? may haps ya din’t light it but me thinks you my’like avv’in a go at watchin er burn, ay? 😉 ..... and it’aint as bloody simple now as blam’in it on the Yanks agin ad nauseam, i say, ‘cause the obvious truth be told is blokes all over this freakshow world may like ‘avin a go at causin train wrecks but i say, even those oo don’t may like ‘avin a peek at watchin recks after somebody else did the favor of caus’in it, they do iffin ya know what i mean .... and remember virtual kiddies, rule #7 about forum do’s and don’ts - do NOT feed the animals ! especially the trolling kinds who may have simply fallen into your fav forum by accident thinking they landed in their intended fav beavisNbutthead forum for Assians.... you are virtually advised to carry on like many others increasingly do for aspects of this burning world .... seeking shelter in pretending it didn’t happen.


🙂

Somebody likes me at last . . . . smile
Originally Posted by Skropi
The irony is that my 11 year old son doesn't consider digitals to be real pianos 🤣

I wonder where he got that from? Oh, I know, his teacher!

Yes, this sounds like conservatory-talk: “digital pianos are not real.”

Ironically enough, many conservatories are now buying hybrids by the dozen; of course, if you ask them about this, they will say the ‘fake digitals’ are there for use in case of an emergency only; whatever the heck that means.

Digital pianos are as real and true as you and I, and not only that, but I know for a fact that companies like Yamaha and Kawai are already in the process of dropping the upright-acoustic once and for all, and this will ultimately extend to the baby, the grand, and the 9’ beast.

Now, whilst the upright will be dropped (never again produced), the remaining ‘grands’ will be built in much smaller quantities and then, at some point, only on a per-order basis (very expensive). This, my friend, this is very real!


The future belongs to the digital, and please don’t give me the usual “hammers hitting strings”, and “wall of sound”, and “robust resonances” defense because the real-modern-piano (digital) will not need outdated hammers hitting basic strings to produce the biggest wall of sound(s) and most infinite resonances ever to be heard from a small physical footprint that can fit in the smallest of places and will be priced for the common man and not for the ‘hand-made’ elite!
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Skropi
The irony is that my 11 year old son doesn't consider digitals to be real pianos 🤣

I wonder where he got that from? Oh, I know, his teacher!

Yes, this sounds like conservatory-talk: “digital pianos are not real.”

Ironically enough, many conservatories are now buying hybrids by the dozen; of course, if you ask them about this, they will say the ‘fake digitals’ are there for use in case of an emergency only; whatever the heck that means.

Digital pianos are as real and true as you and I, and not only that, but I know for a fact that companies like Yamaha and Kawai are already in the process of dropping the upright-acoustic once and for all, and this will ultimately extend to the baby, the grand, and the 9’ beast.

Now, whilst the upright will be dropped (never again produced), the remaining ‘grands’ will be built in much smaller quantities and then, at some point, only on a per-order basis (very expensive). This, my friend, this is very real!


The future belongs to the digital, and please don’t give me the usual “hammers hitting strings”, and “wall of sound”, and “robust resonances” defense because the real-modern-piano (digital) will not need outdated hammers hitting basic strings to produce the biggest wall of sound(s) and most infinite resonances ever to be heard from a small physical footprint that can fit in the smallest of places and will be priced for the common man and not for the ‘hand-made’ elite!
Nope, he didnt get it from his teacher. He came to this conclusion because he is playing uprights and grands for three years, at the conservatory, while practicing at a yamaha ew 300 at home. He really prefers the grand action, but when he played a p515 a a store, he liked it.
Today I am thinking about ordering a p515 with the stand and pedal. Only problem is that it will cost around 1700€, and I could get a clp 725 for a bit less, so I am really undecided.
Have you tried both? Aren't they quite similar, save for the P-model not having a cabinet?
Or is the P515 more like a CLP745 minus the cabinet?
If the latter, then I'd definitely recommend the P515.
Originally Posted by Skropi
Today I am thinking about ordering a P515 with the stand and pedal. Only problem is that it will cost around 1700€, and I could get a CLP725 for a bit less, so I am really undecided.
A Yamaha PSR-EW300 is also not a real digital piano. 😉
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Have you tried both? Aren't they quite similar, save for the P-model not having a cabinet?
Or is the P515 more like a CLP745 minus the cabinet?
If the latter, then I'd definitely recommend the P515.
Originally Posted by Skropi
Today I am thinking about ordering a P515 with the stand and pedal. Only problem is that it will cost around 1700€, and I could get a CLP725 for a bit less, so I am really undecided.
We tried the clp 735, and frankly, the differences in feel, although real, aren't so big to sway my son in any direction. He liked both of them. We didnt try the 725, but I gather it has the same action as the 735. There wasn't a 745 to try, so I really don't know how different it is.
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
A Yamaha PSR-EW300 is also not a real digital piano. 😉
Lol exactly 😃 That's why I cant play a grand......yet.
Joe T great answer —imho—if you are not gigging out, and can play an acoustic at home w/o disturbing the world, get a real piano—-I have an entire digital set up on one side of my room -never touch it hardly-
I was blessed to find a Yamaha U 1 that wasn’t used at a college but but sat in house —certified tech inspected —pristine -that’s what I play 5hrs a day, it maintains tune and regulation …
digital without real strings , even the expensive Clavinovas just feel like a toy to me.. just follow everyone’s advice and get it inspected—-yes there’s 10,000 parts to go wrong but you have nightmares w digitals too.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Have you tried both? Aren't they quite similar, save for the P-model not having a cabinet?
Or is the P515 more like a CLP745 minus the cabinet?
If the latter, then I'd definitely recommend the P515.
Originally Posted by Skropi
Today I am thinking about ordering a P515 with the stand and pedal. Only problem is that it will cost around 1700€, and I could get a CLP725 for a bit less, so I am really undecided.

You're right, Mac. Exactly the same feel and spec apart from the audio system and cabinet. But it comes with an on/off pedal which is a tad niggardly.
The action on the 725/735 is lighter and imo better fwiw.
Well, I just ordered a white p515, along with its white stand and three pedal unit, and Sennnheiser 559. Damn, me and my son are condemned to never learn to play now I guess.
Next piano I'll buy will be a grand. Unfortunately I will almost certainly never have the funds for one.
Congratulation... I am sure that your son and you will enjoy this amazing piano and then, in a few years, a grand...
Congrat
I had an older Yamaha P keyboard that broke down. Got a new P125. It's a rather quick decision. The store I bought the keyboard is partially open. They don't like people (even ones who are vaccinated) touching an instrument. You put in an order and pick it up the same day if the item is in stock.

I know for sure the P125 is an upgrade to something similar to the discontinued P255. The next up is the P515. I tested both of these over a year ago. At my level of playing (intermediate), I could have gone for a P515 but feel the higher price is unjustified.

Today I went to another music store. On display were 4 full-size keyboards: Roland P30, Yamaha P125, Casio Previa PXS1000 & Dexibell H10. The Roland, Casio & Yamaha are priced the same although the Roland has a higher suggested retail price meaning it has a bigger markdown. The Yamaha has the least markdown of the 3. The Yamaha P125 & Roland FP30 have similar heavy action and the keys are slightly higher. Don't know why. The Casio & Dexibell (supposedly from Italy) both have lighter action although all 4 models have weighted keys. Dexibell is the more expensive of the 4. Not sure if the higher price adds up to better performance.

After trying the 4 keyboards, played an acoustic Baldwin grand. The price of the Baldwin model is around US$10,000. The action is light similar to the Dexibell. Didn't find problems switching between these keyboards and the acoustic. When it comes to action, it comes down to heavier or lighter. The heavier action of a Yamaha or Roland would give your hands more workout. Some people prefer a heavier action while others like lighter action. The piano sampling & action is subjective. Need to play the same pieces on different keyboards in the store to pick out the preferred one.
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
I know for sure the P125 is an upgrade to something similar to the discontinued P255.

No, the P-125 is a rebadge for the P-115 is a rebadge for the P-105 is a rebadge for the P-95 is an update for the P-85.

Quote
The next up is the P515.

The P-515 is the successor of the P-255, which is the successor of the P-155.
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
I know for sure the P125 is an upgrade to something similar to the discontinued P255.

No, the P-125 is a rebadge for the P-115 is a rebadge for the P-105 is a rebadge for the P-95 is an update for the P-85.

Quote
The next up is the P515.

The P-515 is the successor of the P-255, which is the successor of the P-155.

Any minute someone's gonna mention "Neandethal Man" . . . .
This is interesting topic. My main DP and practice is my Roland FP30. But my mobil/travel DP is the Casio CT-S1, world of a difference regarding action/feel. Every time I jump on the Casio it always feels odd and challenging compared to playing on my FP30. And I’m still a novice and learning the piano.

It’s unfortunate I can’t seem to find any 61-key with weighted keys. That’s on par with quality sound like my Casio.
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
I know for sure the P125 is an upgrade to something similar to the discontinued P255.

No, the P-125 is a rebadge for the P-115 is a rebadge for the P-105 is a rebadge for the P-95 is an update for the P-85.

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The next up is the P515.

The P-515 is the successor of the P-255, which is the successor of the P-155.

Any minute someone's gonna mention "Neandethal Man" . . . .
Hey, you jumped at least 1000 iterations of the P series! Well they could be 10000, but you know... DP manufacturers are very slow...
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