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found the news from my friend.
This means that Kawai also has Grand version of Aures as Yamaha CXX TA2.
And maybe new transducer system for soundboard.

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Holy moly!
Here in Denmark it looks like they have a GL-30 model with Aures:

Kawai GL-30 AURES ATX4

But you could probably get a fully restored Bösendorfer 170 for the same price ... (although not with a silent system, and definitely not with transducers).
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Here in Denmark it looks like they have a GL-30 model with Aures:

Kawai GL-30 AURES ATX4

Obviously, GX2 is Better than GL30, and latest 4 transducers Aures2 than old Aures.
I think we will have an alternative choice to Yamaha C2/3X TA2.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute real affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

Seems like Kawai uses a new silence system for GX2 AR2, named GP Touch Muting System--last pic.
It's different than old one in upright Aures1, maybe they improve the touching feel.
Quote
I think we will have an alternative choice to Yamaha C2/3X TA2.

…though there’s a suggestion judging from
The Yamaha JP site that the TA2 is discontinued.
Other Aures 2 models being released as well. Here’s a video of the K500 Aures 2:

Kawai K-500 Aures 2 Piano Demo

Now keeping my fingers crossed mine will be arriving soon at last!
As with the grands, the touchscreen as been removed from the uprights.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

It depends whom you ask. There is a lot of controversy surrounding this topic. I looked into this since I wanted (and now have) a silent upright. The let-off distance is larger in my silent K300 than in a normal one. But I didn't notice differences in touch when played side by side in a store. However I am only an intermediate player.

Apparently you can set let-off smaller in a silent K300. It may be that factory regulation is on the safe side such that the likelihood of a hammer is ever touch a string (even after use-dependent changes in action) is low. People want the piano to be silent after all. I looked at my action and the mute rail and I think it can be set closer to the strings without causing problems, after which let-off distance can be decreased. There is a video on Youtube of a technician doing this on a K300 ATX3 and it seems to work well. In that video the let-off distance seems to be set at the normal 2-3 mm.

So investing in regulation work can minimize let-off differences. But this may take hours and time is money which is probably why on an 8K piano this is not done in the factory/by the dealer. And perhaps you run the risk that you'd have to adjust things later again so as to keep things optimal.

I think I am going to do this at some point, just for the feeling of having things optimized and perhaps it will improve the touch somewhat.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

Just as with a moderator felt, the distance is increased, which affects pianissimo play.

(Ironically to make the piano quieter it becomes louder.)
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

Just as with a moderator felt, the distance is increased, which affects pianissimo play.

(Ironically to make the piano quieter it becomes louder.)

Indeed. The escapement in acoustic pianos is usually 1mm (increased for the bass hammers to allow the larger string vibration amplitudes to not touch the hammer) and the reason for such a short escapement distance is to be able to play pianissimo, because these low velocities should be able to reach the string without the natural deceleration of the hammer after escapement affecting the terminal velocity. The larger that distance, the higher the chance of pianissimos hitting the string with lower than expected velocity in a non-linear fashion. I guess that may not be a very pronounced effect anyway and only more experienced pianists would be able to notice it but still.
Originally Posted by Monoch
Other Aures 2 models being released as well. Here’s a video of the K500 Aures 2:

Kawai K-500 Aures 2 Piano Demo

For me that video, like almost all Transacoustic/Aures demo videos fails to really demonstrate what makes these pianos awesome. I've posted this video before, but just in case others haven't seen it and are wondering why one might spend so much more on a TA/Aures than a standard piano please take a look.

Not many, but there are some other videos that also demonstrate this, for example Stu Harrison's review of the K-300 Aures.

I posted the link to this video primarily for the differences between Aures (1) and Aures 2, not so much for the Aures / TA system in general. As far as I know, it's the only one that discusses the Aures 2 system on an upright so far. I'm particularly interested in the Aures 2 system since I've one on the way.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

According to KawaiDon the new action oh the Kawai Grand silent pianos it supposed to match Yamahas silent system that has the quick release action that doesn’t effect touch at all. But so far there is not much information about it

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3159609/re-new-kawai-gl10-atx4.html#Post3159609

I know for a fact that Yamahas grand silent pianos feels amazing and i could not tell a difference. But my Kawai K-200 ATX3 (I’m renting it so will upgrade) is not as good.

Also amazing that Kawai decided to remove the touchscreen on the uprights… i looks like they listened to the feedback. smile

I’m on the market for a Grand piano with silent feature and was set on a Yamaha C1X HS2 but now the Kawai’s might be an option to.
Originally Posted by Monoch
Not many, but there are some other videos that also demonstrate this, for example Stu Harrison's review of the K-300 Aures.

I posted the link to this video primarily for the differences between Aures (1) and Aures 2, not so much for the Aures / TA system in general. As far as I know, it's the only one that discusses the Aures 2 system on an upright so far. I'm particularly interested in the Aures 2 system since I've one on the way.

Thx for ur video link, and congratulations to AR2 ordering. K300 or K500?
I believe AR2 will be improved by new transducers instead of old onkyo high/low vibtone unit.
Wait ur experience.
If keyboard is OK with latest silence system, I believe there will be a SK AR2 grand version in addition to the GL/GX series.
Originally Posted by Boboulus
I know for a fact that Yamahas grand silent pianos feels amazing and i could not tell a difference. But my Kawai K-200 ATX3 (I’m renting it so will upgrade) is not as good.

I tried some pianos recently and felt the same way about the ATX3 I tried. Haven't gotten a chance to try a Yamaha equivalent.

I really wanted to give the Novus 5 or 10 a try but those things are unavailable everywhere.

So I will wait another year, or two, or three.
I guess maybe Yamaha use different muting system for their silent or TA upright and grand piano, as Kawai do on K-series and GX2 Aures2. Cuz my friend tried U1TA2 but feel not good enough for its keyboard, although she didn't compare with CXXTA2 grand.
And I think TA2 or Aures2 A/DP is a different type of product compared to hybrid DP likes NV.
Originally Posted by robinlb
I guess maybe Yamaha use different muting system for their silent or TA upright and grand piano, as Kawai do on K-series and GX2 Aures2. Cuz my friend tried U1TA2 but feel not good enough for its keyboard, although she didn't compare with CXXTA2 grand.
And I think TA2 or Aures2 A/DP is a different type of product compared to hybrid DP likes NV.

Correct. It’s actually an addition to the grand action called quick release that makes it possible to regulate the same distance to string as regular grams piano. The Yamaha upright has same limitations as Kawai upright silent system as all other has. Previous version of Kawai grand silent system also had this limitation (and was also extremely loud… sounded like wooden hammers actually hit wood) but the new one is supposed to be as good as Yamaha. But not much info about it.
There was an announcement news item on the Kawai global website for the Aures 2 models a few days ago, but they have removed it from the site again shortly after. Not sure why they removed it again, but it looks like more info from Kawai is imminent.
Very interested in seeing what an Aures 2 system looks like.

From the pictures, the hammer sensor system looks very similar to what is on the ATX/NV-10. So likely there are no additional hammer sensors in play.

Might there be key sensors? Or more likely, a different stop rail to account for letoff height requirements and update SK-EX Rendering on the software side.
In the UK the GX2 AR2 is listed at Bonners:
https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/kawai-gx2-aures-2-180cm-grand-piano-polished-ebony

So a £5k premium over a standard GX2. I think the Yamaha premium on a C3X -> Transacoustic is around £7k.
Originally Posted by Boboulus
Also amazing that Kawai decided to remove the touchscreen on the uprights... i looks like they listened to the feedback.

Well, this guarantees no sale to me.

An instrument of this size and price should contain the necessary controls to use its core features, rather than depend on unreliable third party tools and services that may or may not continue to exist in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years.
Originally Posted by pppianomarc
An instrument of this size and price should contain the necessary controls to use its core features, rather than depend on unreliable third party tools and services that may or may not continue to exist in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years.

I agree with the sentiment but the harsh reality is the guarantee on a Transacoustic is 5 years (was just 2). So there’s no guarantee the electronics will work or be fixable after that.

This is why in this situation I’d rather they be separate/removable.

I think there’s a different debate as to whether you’re likely to get more longevity with a dedicated screen built by the manufacturer with all the pros and cons of that versus relying upon a tablet.

I’d hope that the aps aren’t tied to just one ecosystem and aren’t necessarily for the basic operation of the electronic parts.

The Bonners description suggests the Kawai warranty is 10 years which if true and applies to the electronics is a step in the right direction.
Originally Posted by dhts
Originally Posted by pppianomarc
An instrument of this size and price should contain the necessary controls to use its core features, rather than depend on unreliable third party tools and services that may or may not continue to exist in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years.

I agree with the sentiment but the harsh reality is the guarantee on a Transacoustic is 5 years (was just 2). So there’s no guarantee the electronics will work or be fixable after that.

This is why in this situation I’d rather they be separate/removable.

I think there’s a different debate as to whether you’re likely to get more longevity with a dedicated screen built by the manufacturer with all the pros and cons of that versus relying upon a tablet.

I’d hope that the aps aren’t tied to just one ecosystem and aren’t necessarily for the basic operation of the electronic parts.

The Bonners description suggests the Kawai warranty is 10 years which if true and applies to the electronics is a step in the right direction.

Nu EU law a manufacturer need to guarantee that a product is reparable for 10 years meaning they have to make sure there are sore parts for that long. It’s not the same as a product warranty but just meaning the product should be able to work for that long. ☺️

I think the 10 year warranty is for the acoustic parts and the electronics has about 2 years… don’t remember exactly what my Kawai K-200 ATX3 has but it was separated like this.
I think Kawai cancels the touch screen, and uses loss-less digital modification and external controller box on the grand piano. Even after 10 or 20 years of use, even if the electronic part is damaged, it can also have a complete acoustic piano to continue to use for us.
So for me, the ultimate and dream piano is SK3 AURES2 or 3...
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.
In the Kawai upright and grand pianos featuring the previous ATX/Aures silent system, the impact was quite significant. In the uprights, the overall key travel is reduced in both silent and acoustic modes, even with silent system disabled. This means that playing a silent upright in acoustic mode is not the same as playing a similar upright without silent system. This can be easily checked if you go to a showroom and play for example a K500 upright without silent system and a K500 ATX/Aures. The difference will of course depend on how properly regulated the piano has been, but I the Kawai uprights (and other brands as well) I have checked in showrooms had major differences to their acoustic only counterparts.

With the Kawai silent grand pianos, the difference is more subtle in acoustic mode. There is still a difference compared to a grand without silent system, but it is not as noticeable as with the uprights. However, in silent mode, the key travel is reduced and the overall feeling is quite different (for example, the resistance at the escapement point is not noticeable).

As far as I know, only the Yamaha grand pianos with SH/SH2 silent overcome this limitation (note: Yamaha only uses this system in grand pianos, not in uprights). Yamaha call this mechanism "Quick Escape". It physically changes the geometry of the action and allows for separate regulation in acoustic and silent modes. The result is that the regulation in acoustic mode is exactly the same as in a piano without silent system and the regulation in silent mode feels almost the same as in acoustic mode. Hopefully, Kawai has done more than just a software/sound engine update and introduced a similar mechanism in this new version of their silent system.
Originally Posted by Boboulus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

According to KawaiDon the new action oh the Kawai Grand silent pianos it supposed to match Yamahas silent system that has the quick release action that doesn’t effect touch at all. But so far there is not much information about it (...)

This would be excellent news and a game changer.

Getting a Kawai upright with silent system makes sense because all other model will display the same limitation. It can be minimized to some extent by proper installation and regulation at the factory, but, afaik, only higher tier models (e.g. Bechstein and Schimmel Konzert uprights) actually try do it.

However, in my opinion, it makes no sense getting a Kawai grand with silent system due to negative impact of the silent system on the action in acoustic mode. So far, the only realistic option is a Yamaha grand with SH/SH2 system and the underlying Quick Escape mechanism.

But it is quite strange that pianos with ATX4/Aures system have been available in stores for ~2 months and there is no information whatsoever from Kawai. If Kawai introduced something similar to Yamaha's Quick Escape, this would be a major change. And if they apply such a system to the uprights as well they could have a significant market advantage. Let's see.
Originally Posted by robinlb
I think Kawai cancels the touch screen, and uses loss-less digital modification and external controller box on the grand piano. Even after 10 or 20 years of use, even if the electronic part is damaged, it can also have a complete acoustic piano to continue to use for us.
So for me, the ultimate and dream piano is SK3 AURES2 or 3...
The system you are describing is exactly what Yamaha did with the SH system over a decade ago... so you can get a CX3 or S3X SH2 as alternative ;-)
Originally Posted by acdp
But it is quite strange that pianos with ATX4/Aures system have been available in stores for ~2 months and there is no information whatsoever from Kawai.

They are not really available. So far they are only listed on shop’s websites, but I’ve not seen a single ATX4/Aures2 model anywhere actually available in stock ready to be delivered, and I’ve been looking.

But regardless, the models being listed would be reason enough for Kawai to make an official announcement you’d expect.
Originally Posted by Monoch
Originally Posted by acdp
But it is quite strange that pianos with ATX4/Aures system have been available in stores for ~2 months and there is no information whatsoever from Kawai.

They are not really available. So far they are only listed on shop’s websites, but I’ve not seen a single ATX4/Aures2 model anywhere actually available in stock ready to be delivered, and I’ve been looking.

But regardless, the models being listed would be reason enough for Kawai to make an official announcement you’d expect.
They have been listed for 1-2 months. However, in the last weeks a few online stores (at least in Germany) state they have the Kawai ATX4 in stock with a delivery date of 3-4 days. Other stores show an expected delivery date of 2-3 weeks.
Originally Posted by acdp
The system you are describing is exactly what Yamaha did with the SH system over a decade ago... so you can get a CX3 or S3X SH2 as alternative ;-)

I personally have no need or interest in silent pianos, no matter it's ATX4 or SH2.
I am interested in soundboard transducers on Acoustic Grand, and through it to playback of external VSTs. So only focus on TA2 or Aures2 grand on SXX or SK in future. It represents a trend toward digital add-ons for acoustic pianos
Originally Posted by acdp
Originally Posted by Boboulus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering how much these silencing systems with a mute rail affect the feel since I believe the escapement distance is increased to allow for the mute rail to be inserted and stop the hammers before they hit the strings, yet have a working escapement.

According to KawaiDon the new action oh the Kawai Grand silent pianos it supposed to match Yamahas silent system that has the quick release action that doesn’t effect touch at all. But so far there is not much information about it (...)

This would be excellent news and a game changer.

Getting a Kawai upright with silent system makes sense because all other model will display the same limitation. It can be minimized to some extent by proper installation and regulation at the factory, but, afaik, only higher tier models (e.g. Bechstein and Schimmel Konzert uprights) actually try do it.

However, in my opinion, it makes no sense getting a Kawai grand with silent system due to negative impact of the silent system on the action in acoustic mode. So far, the only realistic option is a Yamaha grand with SH/SH2 system and the underlying Quick Escape mechanism.

But it is quite strange that pianos with ATX4/Aures system have been available in stores for ~2 months and there is no information whatsoever from Kawai. If Kawai introduced something similar to Yamaha's Quick Escape, this would be a major change. And if they apply such a system to the uprights as well they could have a significant market advantage. Let's see.

I had decided for a Yamaha grand with SH2 because of just this reason. But now Kawai is an option to if this really is true. And second factor for me is how laud the actual stoping mechanism is… i tried the GL 10 ATX2 and it was extremely load… so loud i would not be able to use the silent feature at home even in day time. The Yamaha CX1 HS2 is very quite… its about the same kind of sound that my Yamaha P-515 produced.

The only video reviewing the GL30 ATX4 (linked in this thread) say it’s quite but hard to trust this.
I’m reading this on Bonners website

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/prod...o-polished-ebony-with-free-concert-stool

“The GL30 ATX4 features a new and improved hammer stop rail system, allowing the hammer's escapement from the strings to be identical when in muting mode as in acoustic mode. This means there is no compromise in the quality of touch when playing digitally using headphones.”

This doesn’t mean that the escapement is similar as a non silent grand piano so it doesn’t mean anything. I think this is the case with most silant piano to. Hope there will be more information about the new stop rail system and if it really is like KawaiDon says. Fingers crossed smile
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