Jean-Luc, I have a very odd thought for you after watching the most adorable Caline. The way you are stroking her in the second half of the video, try to do exactly the same thing on piano and see what happens. Pretend the piano is a cat of yours, if it helps. Transfer that motion, without worrying about the sound you produce, or notes. See what happens?

I am still struggling with my own "stuff" and have NO expertise on the subject. But my impression in the first videos is of a kind of disconnect. Your wrist and everything look classical, but there isn't a feeling that what's happening at the finger end has much to do with what's happening at the forearm and wrist end. When I saw that cats there was this "aha" (hopefully a right reaction).

Thank you Keystring, I will try that, seems a pretty good idea since kitty petting is done without tension, it's actually a movement we do without thinking so the body control it not our brain (and our body knows what is good for itself I guess). A side note, isn't she the cutest little thing my little darling ? (While it's not obvious on the video, Bidule is like her, a big petting-hungry teddy bear :))
I cannot really play today (actually typing is painful) but I have been doing a lot of thinking (and reading). The main pain zone is located under the wrist under the scaphoid bone and radiate in the palm of the hand (as if the thumb acted as a lever and exerted too much tension on the ligaments attaching it to the tendons [I try to press the keys with as little strength as possible, is it still too much, I don't know]).
I saw this video on youtube that seem interesting because it shows the thumb pressing action pretty well and it's very different than what I do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4_LdrP0c1A (note, I do not advertise for the course, I have no clue if it's good or bad, I am only talking about this particular video.
I know my little problems are probably not very interesting for most people, but maybe some of the information posted in this thread will be useful to other people, so I keep adding to it

Ha! I had exactly the same thought just now when I saw the video!

Lovely kitties! I have a black cat too. And actually we bought a piano because we needed comfort and distraction after one of our cats died last year.

I also have problems with my hands, especially the right one, which is stiffer than the left one, due to too much typing. Sometimes my fourth and fifth fingers get all tingling. There is a lot of great information in this thread, thank you.

While opinions vary on Valentina Lisitsa, I think the way she seems to caress the keyboard while producing such wonderful tone and - when needed power - is quite remarkable. Some say she overdoes it but, as the head of my piano studio said to me in the first summer I started taking lessons, (paraphrasing), "You are too rigid. I want next years problem to be that you move too much because that will be easier to fix. But first you have to move!"



P.S. I'm getting there with the stiffness / tension, though my wrists are still a little too static at times.

That is very interesting, Andy. I'm only at the start of my own journey, and it feels like gradually shedding a cement casing. One of the things we discussed early on was the idea of exaggerated movement that will gradually tone down. Watch a little kid drawing with fat crayons. His whole arm moves, and if he's sprawled on the floor he's probably shifting his weight from head to toe. Nothing is locked up, which I think is the point.

My hands are too painful for me to do a lot of experimenting today (I better be careful I guess) but what I can already say from my timid trials is that my piano ain't no kitty, it doesn't care for gentle strokes, what it require is some serious slaps (it's a yamaha P155, if they were not so well thought of, I would start to wonder if it's part of the problem).
About Valentina Lisitsa, it's funny you mention her because I posted a video of her recently, I was looking at her hands and while I cannot judge her technique, I was amazed at how her fingers seemed to read the keyboard, the same way a blind person would read a book in Braille

This one is not piano related, only for kitty lovers:
(and before anyone mention it, I know that the position of my right hand is bad in this video :() If you are wondering, yet the two things you see pointing upward at the left, are his back legs

Actually for me (and I would suspect many adults) the five finger position can be very stressful for the wrist and thumb, until you learn to balance and relax in difficult positions. I find it very difficult to play the way you do, keeping all my fingers to the keys without opening my hand more. I have long fingers, as you do and it's pretty uncomfortable. Also you could just let the longer fingers straighten more and go between the black keys, that helps. Maybe extensive practice in these solid tight positions is more suitable for children with small hands. Maybe you should talk to your teacher about finding peaces that are not very difficult but let you arms and hands move around more on the keyboard? I think when learning the basics you can allow more movement in arms to help the fingers play the keys, the peaceful and effective way of playing will come with more experience. Also maybe not try so much to achieve perfect legato in this stage? And sometimes trying to play quiet with complete control tenses me more than playing louder. What I see you doing is something I would find stressing myself even now.

Anyway, just some thoughts, I'm not a teacher and no expert, just basing my thoughts on my own rocky road in the piano world.

I also have had a lot of issues with my thumb, I remember some pain also in the area you mention. I have done quite a lot of exercising away from the piano to help relax my hands. Careful thumb exercises may be something that would help you. I am not sure I can give advice on how without actually showing. But I quite successfully used this when I had the wrist problem, I think it helped me heal so quickly:
http://www.handmasterplus.com/

EDIT:
Lovely cats, especially the beautiful tabby
Stroking cats is good for one's health, that's why I have 8 of them

True...
What I find frustrating is that I HAVE felt how it feels to be comfortable in playing and being able to perform miracles (in my own scale :)I occasionally have a very good day and after a couple of hours of intensive and productive practicing I get this feeling of being relaxed and strong in my hands and fingers at the same time. I can play as fast as I want and with good solid tone. Everything feels different in a good way. I hate to stop practicing, wishing I could go on forever, because I know I'll never get this back the next day or not until maybe weeks later when another really good day comes by...I just don't know how to get into that state...

I often need to exaggerate a lot first to "get" the right movements. I do think my teacher has been a bit too hard on me, she watches me like a hawk and lately on my lessons I feel tense because I am afraid of moving around too much.

At home I have noticed that if I let myself mess around first instead of trying with perfect poise, I relax after a while and then playing becomes calm and more efficient. I never manage to play this way on the lessons, I feel powerless, doing too little when trying not to do too much, if that makes any sense. I think I will have to talk about this with my teacher, I don't think she understands why I am still so unable to relax, she probably thinks it's nerves, but it isn't really.

It could be, I have a good quality Yamaha upright, but find it very uncomfortabe to play compared to my teacher's grands. Also I had a Yamaha digital in the beginning and it wasn't really good for my fingers either. Some things (like certain trills) I simply cannot do at home, while they are ok at the lessons.

There are huge differences on pianos, how they feel to play. And I guess since there are also huge differences on our hands, it would make sense that what is good for one person may not suit another.

What I notice in these videos is that you are still very isolated, both in your fingers, and between the finger and the arm. That isolation causes you to have to use your small flexor muscles more. You "press" the key, instead of "dropping" your weight into it. Much of this has to do with how much your wrist flexes every time you play a note. That bouncing wrist is not good, especially in the "down" direction. I would actually feel better if you struck the keys with your wrist moving the other way for two reasons: 1) it causes less stress, even though it is still not optimal, and 2) it is easier to correct.

I noticed your isolated fingers most at the thumb. It is very clear that there is no preparatory motion for your thumb. You literally push it straight down when you need to play, and that means you have to use more strength to get it up to speed (it "falls" from a lower height). (Your wrist is also too low when this happens, but I've already mentioned that.)

Let me try to show you a little of what I mean, using Bruce Siegel's own videos.


Siegel discusses some very important ideas, but I'm not sure that he demonstrates it very well when he tries to isolate the technique. Watch these two videos of his, and look at the extreme difference in his thumb:

Bad thumb (especially visible at 0:08):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWpjPL5gvhk
Good thumb (visible early on, and around 0:30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_iUHy1oD4s

What you'll notice is that, in the bad thumb video, he drops his whole hand to the key, his wrist is flat, and his thumb doesn't move. It's his hand/arm playing the note, with a non-active thumb. This is just as bad as completely isolating the thumb and playing without moving your hand/arm. In the second video, you'll notice a much more active thumb, his wrist is higher, and he connects the thumb movement to the hand/arm movements.

This is something you are definitely missing in your technique, and, specific to the thumb pain, it may help.

I liked most of what Siegel said, with one glaring exception: don't play with your hand inside the black key area all of the time. You need to get used to moving more, and that kind of isolation of movement is part of the problem.

I hope this was helpful, and continues to help you solve your issue.

Yes, the magic of music and cats.

I can attest to it. After my husband lost his battle with cancer about 4 years ago I had to move from the community we lived in -- because of the FMS I had to give up driving a number of yers ago and if I stayed where I was I would be totally dependent of others for even the simplest things -- like groceries for example. So my friends helped me find and purchase a home in a golf cart community where all the basics can be accessed using a cart.

I brought our two cats to this new home -- we had raised both of them since they were little kittens. Sophie is 15 this year and we always called her our ADHD cat -- and though she has slowed down a bit she still is quite active, curious, and comes to check everyone out who enters the house. Molly is 9 this year and is a beautiful dilute tortie. She has always been very timid -- and for the first couple of years would go hide when someone came and come out when the person left. What finally began to bring Molly out of her shell was a neighbor who played piano -- classical piano -- she had been a professional musician and teacher on piano and horn. She would come and play for me -- and about the third time I noticed Molly very quietly come into the living room and curl up where she was not very visible and listen to the music. Gradually she started to come out for other people -- or not flee from where she was when they came -- especially in the last year or so she is a much braver cat --and music helped her to find some courage.

Teachers are people too, you know! I mean, I think they are. Aren't they? Wait, I'm going to do a search and I'll be back!

Outo, thank you very much, some very useful suggestions here ! About the fingers going between the black keys, I guess the two reasons why I tend to avoid that are the fact that at least on my keyboard (and probably a lot because of my bad technique), pressing the key down between the black key require a quiet strong impulse, and the fact that my fingers tend to get stuck between the keys (I don't really know why, I don't have very big fingers :(). This being said, I definitively agree with you that it's something I should do, I won't be able to shy away from this area my whole life anyway
It's funny that you mention the legato part because I have thought of that recently. When I started playing (about 5 weeks before I see my teacher for the first time), I instinctively started playing legato and I think I never ever played staccato (well, except when there is a dot under the note) and it might partially be a reason for my weird technique: since I always played legato, my fingers always remained in contact with the keyboard and it "inhibited" any arm participation. It sounds like something I should investigate.
Concerning the keyboard, I would really be tempted to replace it (I have heard so much good about the VPC1). What stops me for now is first the fact that it is a huge investment, and the fear that my hand problems don't get better and I end up with two useless piano at home The piano at my teacher's has a much lighter action, but it's an old out of tune upright and when I asked my teacher about the action, she told me it is actually on the lighter side of light. So I guess I can't really take it as a reference point.
8 kitties and you manage to play the piano ??? With my two little buggers it's hard, usually, when I decide it's practice time, they decide it's petting time. Then two different scenarios : one of them "forcefully" jump on my knee when I am playing, or, I have two little things sitting on their behinds at my feet, looking at me with heart-breaking eyes, "Why are you neglecting us poor little furry creatures ? :("

Thank you very much Derulux it is indeed very useful In the second video, I have some difficulties seeing the thumb but I think I understood what you were saying and I will try to post a video showing what I understood, especially for the thumb. This time, instead of trying to play a piece, I will concentrate solely on the technique (and following outo's tip, play staccato.

Landorrano, I suppose I better not really answer, I guess everyone reading this thread has understood what I mean (btw, if you check carefully you will see that at least one of the person who answered and provided useful pieces of information is a teacher)

One more idea...play baroque. After only about 2 months of lessons I started working on Scarlatti sonatas(one of my favorite composers) and even though the pieces were too difficult to actually get into polished shape then, I learned a lot about articulation and the baroque legato which is different from the later style, you can play more detached. But I would stay away from Bach first, because the fingerings are much easier to learn on the easier Scarlatti sonatas and they are in general more relaxing (at least for me, but I'm not a Bach fan anyway). Scarlatti seems much easier for long fingers than Bach.

My piano is quite heavy to play between black keys as well. But I forced myself and just try to do it without tensing...there's simply no other way for me to play anything, my 2-4 fingers are so much longer than my 1st. And my teacher allows no twisting at all... Maybe try to push sligthy forward with your fingertips when learning to go there to avoid stressing your forearm muscles too much, forget about the curved fingers.

Do you know the difference between using the muscles in the forearm and using the muscles in your palm? This was kind of a revelation to me and probably was the main thing that helped me get over the wrist issue. Using the palm muscles does not apply pressure in your wrist the same way as using the forearm muscles. It wasn't easy to get the palm muscles to work but I managed and it helped not only with the stress of playing but also the sound I can get from my acoustic was much improved.

I do sometimes feel like my fingers get stuck also, even though they are not big. Mostly the problem is that I find it difficult to place my 2nd and 3rd so that they won't get stuck together at the middle joint, but it's also something to just get used to and practice better positions.

It just requires a lot of work to "get" how to do things because there are so many ways and positions to press down the keys... I think patience may be the biggest asset in learning... I have too little of it

But slowly I do progress...and you will too if you keep yourself in condition and don't push too hard. Does your teacher show you how to do things hands on? Does she give you isolated exercises to do at home? I mean just to try to learn to do one single movement or position correctly? Mine does, although sometimes less successfully...This week I once again have to practice to relax my wrist when playing a couple of notes and it took me an hour just to be able to do that. So I work this week on just one single fraction of a measure in this piece.

When the piano seems not to co-operate and is difficult to play, it's important to not push too much, but accept that you don't get such a good sound, but concentrate on keeping the right movement. While practicing of course, not when performing. Easier said than done, at least for me, my ears are pretty sensitive for imperfections.

Long post, sorry about that...I've spent a lot of time dwelling on these issues myself...



I only let a couple of old ones in my practice room...otherwise it would be impossible

I had a cat I named for his guerilla warfare tactics. As a kitten, when I played, he decided it was time to climb on top of the piano, jump off the lid, and try to land on my hands. As he got older, he would sit next to my feet, and every time I pedaled, he would attack my leg. I got very frustrated one day, and yelled at him. He growled right back..

Jean-Luc -- Many digitals have a way to adjust the touch so it is lighter or heavier.

My first DP, a Kawai, had five touch levels.

My current Roland has very fine tuning of the touch with 5 levels and then finer adjustments within each level. I have to say the Roland is superior to the Kawai just in the 5 basic levels -- when you move from Normal to Light you notice a big difference.

Maybe your DP does have this adjustment and you never noticed?? Many folks turn the piano on and accept all the defaults.

It's so frustrating because, really, I JUST WANT TO PLAY MUSIC!!!! I'm a fairly patient person but this piano situation taxes my patience also. But then I think -- If I don't spend my time on this, how will I ever play the music I want to play? It helps greatly that my teacher is on board with the importance of all of it -- the only warning she gives is "don't over analyze". But analyze is like my middle name (sigh). Somewhere there is a balance to be struck and I am searching for it -- otherwise I run the risk of just freezing up and being reluctant to play anything.

You got me wondering now if I should toy around with velocity curves on my P-35, I'd rather use as little force as possible.