Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum The main thing: it was made by hand!

There is a lot that can be done in after-sales service, which is often most of the difference between the premium model and the standard model, which is why I think people should spend more time shopping for a technician. After a few years of playing, a standard model with a good technician is likely to be better than a premium model that has had mediocre service.

Linking it to this thread's topic: Which one is the premium model and which one the standard? I suppose you consider handmade premium then?

The premium model is the more expensive one.

You should read The Nature and Art of Workmanship, by David Pye.

Handmade just means 'low volume'. The scale isn't large enough to justify automation. I suspect the hand-made concept is attractive to us as it implies rarity, when we are used to all of our consumer goods being mass-produced.

It certainly evokes emotions in lots of people. Having something unique. I think this uniqueness is very important. It’s interesting: as the spokesperson of Schimmel in the video from above said: computer assisted manufacturing means you meet the desired standard a 100 percent all the time. Doing certain steps manually is always an approach to get as close as possible, but it’s more or less a coincidence (maybe the wrong word) when you achieve a 100 percent. Of course producing larger numbers requires more machinery. However, in the case of Schimmel piano it seems to have been part of the company’s DNA to always modernize and invent.

One more thing of importance is that we attribute somethings as a “soul“ to handmade things. Which evokes the emotions mentioned before. But so far people here have rather held the view that handmade doesn’t necessarily mean better quality or better sound. Interesting. Some even suggest (if I understood it correctly) that machine made (if you want) can result in better durability.

Best case scenario: a machine will implement the exact instructions it's fed, and the executed result matches the instructions perfectly. So suppose time and cost and execution are not a variable, what remains? The quality of instructions you provide to the machine.

You're in Bavaria, zeitlos. If money and delivery time were no obstacle, would you buy wooden furniture from a local Bavarian master craftsman (Schreiner etc) or would you order from IKEA (even its top end range)? It's not that Ikea machine manufacturing imperfectly executes instructions (though that'll happen too but is usually covered under warranty), it's the fact that it executes instructions based in part on creating a sufficiently attractive profit range.

Of course I've given two extreme endpoints - high end hand labor vs. low end / budget line machine production - but things will sit on that spectrum and contain different trade off's. The reliability of a machine to execute instructions does not speak to the quality of the work it (faithfully) executes.

And while there's a difference between furniture and instruments, I imagine similar factors come into play. Even for piano repairs. See one example here: https://www.piano-reisberg.de/rubrik_16_1.html?w=16&r=1

I saw an interesting video about the Saturn V rocket. NASA and their various subcontractors couldn't build one today if we wanted. Although we have the schematics, engineering back in the 60's was at such a different state than it is now essentially everything was "hand made" compared to how we do things now with modern fabrication on SpaceX and ULA rockets. All the little notations for each part and their slight spec deviations and how a specific engineer would make it work has been lost. Essentially all the "yellow sticky pad" type information critical to perfect parts in the 60's, not to mention that generation's experience and skill for how to use it. All that is now lost.

Modern Rockets, like SpaceX and ULA rockets, are built using entirely different methods and philosophies thanks to modern fabrication abilities. Which is "better"? Well, when failure is not an option, like rockets and rovers, it's both: machines build the parts and people exhaustively QA it. So I expect much the same is true with Pianos. As others have said, ultimately what matters most is the price point and level of quality they're trying to achieve. But I certainly would stick to my guns that something being "hand made" should never be, on its own, a synonym for being better.

OT once again- I've watched with great anticipation but I've never seen anyone "break a leg" playing the piano.

Schimmel does not only make a piano by machinery. Pianos are allowed to rest for a few days .They then are worked on by master craftsmen by hand.
They are however extremely proud of thier new CAPE (computer enhanced machinery) which is vital for some areas of piano making. Some of these critical areas Pianoloverus posted about near the beginning of this thread.
These facts were told to me by a proffesional PW member who toured the Schimmel factory in Braunschweig. By the way he also has a newly bought Schimmel piano. Unlike me he being a proffesional of the highest order has a Semi Concert grand , but of the Konzert series.
( I have an upright Schimmel Konzert )
Until 2021 Schimmel was a member of the BVK .In fact I still.have the BVK stickers in my piano. So does the other person I spoke of have these in his piano.

It is rather interesting Schimmel are one of Renner's biggest customers. Yet they are also one of Germany's biggest factories.
From one manufacturer of high standing I was told that it is difficult to acquire Renner action parts especially recently! This was from a manufacturer who is a CERTIFIED member of
the BVK. So is this happening to other small piano manufacturers in Germany?
Is this the reason that the opponents of Schimmel decided against thier continued certified BVK membership for 2021.

Fortunately I found out they were no longer members of the BVK before I bought my piano . Pianos like Bechstein , Seiler Schimmel are traditional and independent. It is a known fact that members of the Schimmel family ARE involved in the management of the company . Like Grotrian they still.have shares in the company .
I wonder if Windjammer and Zeitlos care about people who are owners of these pianos and the hurt they may cause them. (Bechstein, Seiler and Schimmel) Seiler by the way is not a CERTIFIED member of the BVK.

My Schimmel piano was made in 2016 or 2017. Do you really think. I should remove the BVK stickers indide the piano because a thread like this about conclusions made up of bits and pieces ,misinformation and out of date youtube videos ?

By the way after I read some of these threads I contacted Larry Fine. He was kind enough to answer shortly. Yes the Konzert and the Classic series upright pianos are 100% made in Braunschweig, Germany.
Schimmel also answered me and confirmed it. (Rob Slayman ? ) He said they should have someone here from Schimmel to answer these questions, but they are too busy making fine German pianos. He was going to discuss it with Schimmel in Germany.
I do not want to discuss this any further with the two posters .

Whether parts or whole sections are handmade isn’t the main thing IMHO, it’s the finished piano’s sound and feel that’s most important.

Quality of design; quality of materials; quality of execution - these are the things that concern me. Whether the execution is done by hand or not does not concern me at all.

Yes but the point is that they are not only made by machinery.They have a significant amount of hand work done
by extremely well trained master crafts people. These people serve long apprenticeship's in these factories.
The very FALSE idea that is trying to be perpetuated is the notion that Schimmel is mass producing its upright pianos ? This is not true from everything I have heard and read.

Yes terminaldegree did give me a great deal of help when we were deciding on this piano .
(he did not however not promote the Schimmel over the Sauter to me )
We decided that based on the musical and creative aspects of the piano. They are BOTH fine instruments !
The materials the Braunschweig made factories are Renner action and Renner hammers.

Some of these smaller German manufacturers are perhaps having a difficult time. Those that are backed by Asian companies happen to now have financial backing to incorporate the best German materials and machinery. No doubt there is a great deal of resentment towards Schimmel .
After all they sell a great of pianos in Germany. However if one looks up the new Konzert and the Classic pianos in Klaviano,
one will see that the prices are not cheap ., not even in Germany.

Broncos fan reads the Denver Post, sees his team lost a game. Goes to his wife, "I wonder if these journalists care that Broncos fans are really upset by their reporting."

Yes, we'd all be better off if we only read facts that reinforced our consumerist choices. Newsflash: I'm soon an owner of a Seiler and do you think I care one bit about BVK? I'd have to have an ego more fragile than a boiled egg to care. I'm fascinated by the attempt of German producers to control their market, but it's not as if this adds or detracts to my joy of piano playing.

Yes it's a fact that Schimmel lost its BVK label, but we don't know why, and frankly it's not clear from what you posted that you know either. Like you, I hope somebody with clear authority from Schimmel would go on record instead of hiding behind such platitudes as "we are too busy producing fine German pianos to update our official documents with clear statements." Give me a break. That Schimmel rep you talked to just spent ten minutes or more of their life with a customer on the phone, and it'd take less to update their documents. But they're too busy. Sure, I buy that. I buy anything that reinforces my belief in the product I bought. Buyer's remorse and cognitive dissonance are established phenomena in market research, and their regular appearance in BVK discussions on PW has become a bit too predictable.

Also, nobody has likened Schimmel to a Pearl River operation that pumps out uprights on a conveyor belt. But of course it's easier for us to muster upset at perceived and imagined injury than to engage another person's viewpoint. Being outraged is often a defense mechanism to engage in factual discussion. Nothing new under the Sun.

As I said terminaldegree and I discussed Schimmel not being a member of the BVK before I bought. No buyers remorse thank you .....I love my Schimmel Konzert 132 and however you try any insult me you cannot take that away.


I do not want to discuss anything with you.I read enough of your incorrect assumptions to last me a lifetime.
You enjoy your Bronco whatever ., it suits you ! Give me terminaldegree anyway, a concert pianist , and professor of the piano. He knows far more than you could ever.

I would be careful what you say however. Windjammer The dealer I bought from is a really larger company. Schimmel in Germany is aware of what is being said here.

There are three of you posters who have attacked the credibility of Bechstein , Schimmel and others .You even tried it against Bosendorder.....

Good I will be most relieved when you can buy your Seiler.

ALL piano companies use CNC machines to produce certain parts. The idea of handmade is very nebulous in the world of manufacturing. In my experience the difference is not that it is made mostly by computer aided woodworking machines; it is that at certain critical points in the manufacturing process the tone regulators, tuners or QC folks have the ability to make changes that change the direction of the tone. This could be done by a voicer at the end of the production or by a bellyman installing the soundboard or notching the bridge. It is the knowledge on the part of the workers and the latitude they have in the manufacturing process that tells the tale. in mass production piano manufacturing they have very rigid specs to follow and each step is done uniformly for a consistent output. In some cases in cheap pianos they are all equally bad. In the more expensive instruments it all comes down to the design, materials and craftsmanship. You can have the most beautiful design but if the design does not include very strict demands for quality materials it won't be a good piano. You can have quality materials and poorly trained workers and it will be bad. But for a piano to have the projection, sustain, clarity of tone and color, you must have all three things: good design, the best tonal materials and craftsmen who can spot an error and have the authority to correct it.

That was my point. Nothing that I or anyone here post re the BVK should detract from your enjoyment of the instrument. That is in fact the exact thing I said.
As I suspected above, your reading seems selective. If all you are looking for is an "us versus them" in other people's posts, then that's the only thing you'll find.
Buyer's remorse is just one explanation of why people insecure in their purchase patterns seek validation online and tend to overreact when they read posts that (seemingly or actually) say say neutral to skeptical things. There are other reasons, e.g. conflict of interests ("I work for this company, someone said something bad about the company, so I will attack this person").
I'm still trying to parse why a certain subset of posters on PW - very far from the majority - lack any mature and civil way to engage factual discussion neutrally. I'm sure there's additional and superior explanations out there. It definitely doesn't teach one anything about pianos (to the contrary), but a great deal about the psychology of (certain) piano owners.


I believe the most I ever said is that Schimmel's are regarded more highly and priced higher in the US than in Europe, and that we don't know why they lost the BVK label. And those are grounds for ominous threats a la "the Schimmel people are watching this forum, they are a big company, you better watch out"? I'd like to believe that the Schimmel people watching this thread, if they are, believe their time is better spent convincing customers than bullying them into submission by intimidation. I also know that the sole Schimmel dealer in the wide state of Texas doesn't give a damn about any thread about Schimmel uprights - they don't even think it's worth their while to stock those uprights. Their call, not mine, and please don't think this is a point about you and you piano. It's a point about a Texas dealer.

Bechstein: I have no beef with the company. I actually enjoy their pianos from back in the day. My displeasure, such as it is, is limited to certain owners and junior employees whose personality traits seem highly dysfunctional, but I'm not so silly as to believe this should colour my esteem of the company and its instruments. Like Schimmel, I believe they could profit from greater informational transparency, but that's just it - an opinion. Not an attack on the company.

Boesendorfer I'm acquainted with their people and helped translate a message they put out and posted it on here to help clear up a confusion that had arise. The level of cognitive dissonance to construe this as an attempted attack on a beloved company from my home country is pretty high. As I said above, once you put on a "us versus them" lens, it's nearly impossible to read anything as saying anything else. Q.E.D.

"My displeasure, such as it is, is limited to certain owners and junior employees whose personality traits seem highly dysfunctional. " ( quote from Windjammer)

Are you insinuating my personality as highly dysfunctional
or are you referring to salespeople at Tom Lee music ,perhaps
the manager ? Since he gave me a lot of information. Perhaps you mean staff of Piano Buyer. As I told you Larry Fine himself contacted me !
Oh perhaps you mean the rep from Schimmel USA .Actually he is very interested in the Schimmel upright pianos.(I believe I mentioned his name)
Oh I see perhaps you are talking only about Bechstein. Perhaps you mean the Bechstein employee who is a member here ? Why are you running down people who disagree with you.?

You are wrong Mr Windjammer a number of people here would be insulted when they have just bought an expensive item and they have to endure constant "driven" attacks against the brand that they bought. ( common sense)
Since I now have to endure ad hominem attacks I shall just say hurry up and buy the Seiler !

By the way my piano has BVK stickers inside. This reflects when the piano was made ,I agree. I thought would just repeat this since you seem so to be so interested by the BVK.

Actually I have heard a few things about the BVK from the now retired manager of a small German manufacturer. To me
there seems to a lot of disagreements between opponents. I would not worry about Seiler not being a certified member.
It sounds as if they are wonderful pianos. I know my old pre
war Seiler was. These new ones are no doubt very different pianos, but still great pianos.

Actually, I am not insinuating that. If you re-read my post, you'll see it comes in 3 paragraphs - and each paragraph is about one, and only one, brand: Schimmel, Bechstein, Boesendorfer. The quote you provided occurred in a paragraph about Bechstein, not Schimmel, and is about certain Bechstein owners (maybe a handful). Last I checked, that doesn't include you. It also doesn't include every last Bechstein owner. I've known many of them over the years, and now some here, who don't feel personally attacked in their purchase decision by an online discussion. Some people feel strongly about the particular instrument they bought, yes. But it takes something extra to feel what other buyers do: they bought (into) a brand. Then these latter folks come on PW and write things like "I bought a brand." And start attacking people out of nowhere, even when entire posts are unrelated.